Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So after reading thru the space marine codex I came across something interesting. Under the rules for grav-amps it's says word for word "when rolling to wound with a grav-weapon, or to determine its effects on a vehicle, the bearer can re-roll the result"

So by RAW when you roll to wound you have to re-roll all the dice even the ones that wounded of you wish to re-roll. Because it does not say "re-roll failed to wound rolls" it says "result" and that's failed and success.

I'm sorry what? A to wound roll is a single die. It does not state wounds as in plurel. In this sentence, it is saying after rolling to wound, you can pick your to wound roll you want to reroll. Whether that's 1 dice, or all of them. This is a case of someone trying to HEAVILY play on words. Smh.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I'm sorry what? A to wound roll is a single die. It does not state wounds as in plurel. In this sentence, it is saying after rolling to wound, you can pick your to wound roll you want to reroll. Whether that's 1 dice, or all of them. This is a case of someone trying to HEAVILY play on words. Smh.

It's says result, it does not say re-roll fails, result is all dice pass or failed. But if you can show me where it says in the grav-amp rules where it's says you re-roll fails then by all means. Because I tried to argue this all night yesterday and with that being the only thing that grav-amps rule say I was stuck.

Wow. You may be right!

When rolling To Wound with a grav-weapon, or to determine its effects on a vehicle, the bearer can re-roll the result.
- Grav-amp

Compare it with the Shred special rule:
Similarly, if a model makes a shooting attack with a weapon that has the Shred special rule, it re-rolls its failed To Wound rolls.
Here it specifiy that only failed.

Wow. That's huge nerf.

Dman137 may have just changed the meta.

I though you do a ''To-wound'' roll on every hit. So you can roll your wound 1 by 1 for the number of hit you have done.

If every hit with a grav meant 2 wound, then yes, you would have to re-roll both results. But since a hit with a grav does 1 wound, re-rolling the result mean re-rolling 1 dice.

If you have a Assault 3 gun, you roll 1 roll of 3 dice. if 2 hit, then you make 2 roll of 1 dice to see what wound.

Dman137 wrote:
So after reading thru the space marine codex I came across something interesting. Under the rules for grav-amps it's says word for word "when rolling to wound with a grav-weapon, or to determine its effects on a vehicle, the bearer can re-roll the result"

So by RAW when you roll to wound you have to re-roll all the dice even the ones that wounded of you wish to re-roll. Because it does not say "re-roll failed to wound rolls" it says "result" and that's failed and success.

It says "can", not "must", so you roll to wound as normal, then can choose to re-roll any and all of those rolls. Obviously the advantageous option is to only re-roll failed wounds, but technically you can re-roll successes too. Not sure why you would though.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
It says "can", not "must", so you roll to wound as normal, then can choose to re-roll any and all of those rolls. Obviously the advantageous option is to only re-roll failed wounds, but technically you can re-roll successes too. Not sure why you would though.

No. As quoted, you are given permission to reroll "... the result". The result of the dice roll is the total of all of the dice. So you are given the option to reroll all of the dice if you wish to, but you are not given permission to pick and choose which dice to reroll.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
So after reading thru the space marine codex I came across something interesting. Under the rules for grav-amps it's says word for word "when rolling to wound with a grav-weapon, or to determine its effects on a vehicle, the bearer can re-roll the result"

So by RAW when you roll to wound you have to re-roll all the dice even the ones that wounded of you wish to re-roll. Because it does not say "re-roll failed to wound rolls" it says "result" and that's failed and success.

It says "can", not "must", so you roll to wound as normal, then can choose to re-roll any and all of those rolls. Obviously the advantageous option is to only re-roll failed wounds, but technically you can re-roll successes too. Not sure why you would though.

Re-roll result means successful and failed, not one or the other. If you want to re-roll any of them you have to re-roll all of them.

 Yarium wrote:
Dman137 may have just changed the meta.

The Inquisition will find him....

Again, yes having a re-roll without specifying that you re-roll fail only mean that you re-roll ALL the dice FOR THAT ROLL.
But, a wound roll is a SINGLE dice, unless there is a special rule that says a hit cause multiple wounds.

Because for every hit you caused, you need to do a 'To wound' roll of 1 dice. You can roll all your dice at once just to make thing go faster.

Using the same example I used before: you cannot choose to roll an Assault 3 gun into 3 'To hit' roll separatly. You have to do a single 'To Hit' roll.
then, for every hit, you make a single 'To Wound' roll. which we usually do all dice at the same time, to accelerate the game.

 PandaHero wrote:
Again, yes having a re-roll without specifying that you re-roll fail only mean that you re-roll ALL the dice FOR THAT ROLL.
But, a wound roll is a SINGLE dice, unless there is a special rule that says a hit cause multiple wounds.

Because for every hit you caused, you need to do a 'To wound' roll.

^ Yup. Technically all 'to Wound' rolls are done 1 die at a time. Choosing to roll them together is just a shortcut.

Ghaz wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
It says "can", not "must", so you roll to wound as normal, then can choose to re-roll any and all of those rolls. Obviously the advantageous option is to only re-roll failed wounds, but technically you can re-roll successes too. Not sure why you would though.

No. As quoted, you are given permission to reroll "... the result". The result of the dice roll is the total of all of the dice. So you are given the option to reroll all of the dice if you wish to, but you are not given permission to pick and choose which dice to reroll.

Dman137 wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
So after reading thru the space marine codex I came across something interesting. Under the rules for grav-amps it's says word for word "when rolling to wound with a grav-weapon, or to determine its effects on a vehicle, the bearer can re-roll the result"

So by RAW when you roll to wound you have to re-roll all the dice even the ones that wounded of you wish to re-roll. Because it does not say "re-roll failed to wound rolls" it says "result" and that's failed and success.

It says "can", not "must", so you roll to wound as normal, then can choose to re-roll any and all of those rolls. Obviously the advantageous option is to only re-roll failed wounds, but technically you can re-roll successes too. Not sure why you would though.

Re-roll result means successful and failed, not one or the other. If you want to re-roll any of them you have to re-roll all of them.

I disagree.

Each to-wound or vehicle damage roll is an individual roll, each with its own specific result, each of which can (not must) be re-rolled. As others have stated, rolling them all at once is a shortcut, nothing more. You thus have the option of re-rolling each singular dice roll, obviously only choosing to re-roll those that have failed.

The grav-amp rule is written differently than ALL other rules thal allow to re-roll failed To Hit rolls, or To Wound rolls.
If it would keep the same wording then it would say: "(...) the bearer can re-roll failed To Wound rolls (...)" but it isn't.

Zimko wrote:

 PandaHero wrote:
Again, yes having a re-roll without specifying that you re-roll fail only mean that you re-roll ALL the dice FOR THAT ROLL.
But, a wound roll is a SINGLE dice, unless there is a special rule that says a hit cause multiple wounds.

Because for every hit you caused, you need to do a 'To wound' roll.

^ Yup. Technically all 'to Wound' rolls are done 1 die at a time. Choosing to roll them together is just a shortcut.

Exactly, roll to wound 1 roll at a time.

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

Also yes... You can re roll either Failed rolls or Successes rolls. (Don't know why re roll the successes rolls, maybe you desn't want to kill that last model for some reason...)

 PandaHero wrote:
Again, yes having a re-roll without specifying that you re-roll fail only mean that you re-roll ALL the dice FOR THAT ROLL.
But, a wound roll is a SINGLE dice, unless there is a special rule that says a hit cause multiple wounds.

Because for every hit you caused, you need to do a 'To wound' roll of 1 dice. You can roll all your dice at once just to make thing go faster.

Using the same example I used before: you cannot choose to roll an Assault 3 gun into 3 'To hit' roll separatly. You have to do a single 'To Hit' roll.
then, for every hit, you make a single 'To Wound' roll. which we usually do all dice at the same time, to accelerate the game.

I don't think that's necessarily true. All "Grav Cannons" in the unit fire simultaneously and form a "wound pool". This pool is all the dice together. They are not rolled one at a time, and you do not determine which dice to reroll until all have been rolled. This pool of dice would be "the result", as far as I'm understanding it.

Isnt this the way everyone always played it?

It never states failed to wound rolls, and since weapons are rolled together, all the wounds are rolled together not individually. This is covered blatantly in the rules, and even in the examples in the shooting section, there is only separation of rolling to hit with different weapons, there is no separation of individual weapons of the same type, or even individual hits from the same weapon.

There are a couple other rerolls in the game that do not trigger off fails and they even state that you have to re-roll all the dice.

grav amps have always required you reroll all the dice to get the reroll not just the fails, anyone who played re-rolling just the fails was playing it incorrectly.

It was never an option to let you maximize the effect, it was there so if you rolled really bad you could re-roll all the dice and maybe have a better roll.

It doensn't matter how it is worded in the case of any current Grav-weapon currently in the game.
It's simple really: a hit cause a 'To Wound' roll.

It's the same as shooting weapon. If I shoot you 10 bolter, at rapid fire range, I have to to 10 'To Hit' roll of 2 dice. If, for some reason, I have to re-roll 1 'To Hit' roll, it woulnd't affect the other 9 bolter, because they are DIFFERENT ROLL that I did at the same time.

Same goes for 'To Wound' roll. Each hit cause a single 'To Wound' roll. They are 100% independant of each other.

Only way to a 'To Wound' roll to have multiple dice, is if you have a special rule that says that a successful 'To Hit' roll cause a 'To Wound' roll with 2 dice instead of 1.

From the Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again. The second roll counts, even if it means a worse result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll.
If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice, not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise. Any modifiers that applied to the first roll also apply to the re-roll.

A rolling to wound is a roll of 1D6 for each hit, not a reroll of 2D6 if you get 2 hits.

ROLL TO HIT
To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range.

I don't think that's necessarily true. All "Grav Cannons" in the unit fire simultaneously and form a "wound pool". This pool is all the dice together. They are not rolled one at a time, and you do not determine which dice to reroll until all have been rolled. This pool of dice would be "the result", as far as I'm understanding it.

And that's where you are wrong. A gun that fire multiple bullet is a single roll, because you have a 'shot' pool if you want. You can resolve every gun from a unit separatly, but you have to fire all the same weapon before moving to the next. so if you have 4 grav gun, and a bolter, you can do the 4 grav gun one after the other, then move on to the bolter. We only roll all the grav together to make it quick.

A WOUND pool is create at the END of the shooting, and comprise all the successful 'TO WOUND' roll. Do not mix 'To Wound' roll with 'Wound' pool. The pool is what you ''transfert'' to the opponent, not what you are rolling.

To Wound Roll
To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon’s Strength characteristic with the target’s Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart below. The number indicated on the chart is the minimum result on a D6 needed to convert the hit into a Wound. A value of ‘-’ indicates that the target cannot be wounded by the attack.

The Wound Pool
Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing. Keep the dice that have scored Wounds and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a Wound. Sometimes an attack will gain a bonus or special rule depending on the results rolled To Hit or To Wound (for example, due to the Rending special rule).
If you caused any such Wounds, split them into separate Wound pools. All Wounds with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the Wounds are the same, as will most often be the case, there will only be one Wound pool.


So you roll to wound 1D6 for each hit. Then you summ up all the wounds and allocate them to the unit (maybe separate different AP wound and Ignore cover wounds)

Yep it looks that you can re-roll whatever dice you want.
False alarm

 PandaHero wrote:

I don't think that's necessarily true. All "Grav Cannons" in the unit fire simultaneously and form a "wound pool". This pool is all the dice together. They are not rolled one at a time, and you do not determine which dice to reroll until all have been rolled. This pool of dice would be "the result", as far as I'm understanding it.

And that's where you are wrong. A gun that fire multiple bullet is a single roll, because you have a 'shot' pool if you want. You can resolve every gun from a unit separatly, but you have to fire all the same weapon before moving to the next. so if you have 4 grav gun, and a bolter, you can do the 4 grav gun one after the other, then move on to the bolter. We only roll all the grav together to make it quick.

A WOUND pool is create at the END of the shooting, and comprise all the successful 'TO WOUND' roll. Do not mix 'To Wound' roll with 'Wound' pool. The pool is what you ''transfert'' to the opponent, not what you are rolling.

But you can't resolve each shot separately. The order of shooting is that you choose a unit to shoot with, then choose a weapon. All models with that weapon will fire, but if there's anything amongst them that makes the shots different, then each of those fires separately from the rest. So, for example, say you have this unit of Harlequins: 1 Troupe Master (w/Shuriken Pistol), 3 Players (w/Shuriken Pistol), and 1 Player (w/Fusion Pistol). When you go to shoot with the unit, you pick a weapon - in this case the Shuriken Pistols. All models with Shuriken Pistols that have not yet fired do so now. That's 4 pistols. However, the Troupe Master's Ballistic Skill is different from the Player's, so you choose which of these will be firing first. Let's say you go with the Players first. You roll three dice, since there are three models firing a weapon that shoots 1 shot each.

This can be important, because maybe not all models are in range of all the models that die. All 3 Players might be in range of a Space Marine, but only 1 Player is in range of 3 Space Marines. In this case though, since you rolled them all together, it is possible for all 3 Space Marines to die! This is because the shots happened simultaneously. The only time they aren't resolved simultaneously (even when they're the same weapon) is when there's a difference in shot, like the Troupe Master in this case firing at a different time because his Ballistic Skill is different. If these three players killed all 3 Space Marines, then you'd need to re-check to see if the Troupe Master can fire, since it may no longer be in range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wallur wrote:
To Wound Roll
To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon’s Strength characteristic with the target’s Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart below. The number indicated on the chart is the minimum result on a D6 needed to convert the hit into a Wound. A value of ‘-’ indicates that the target cannot be wounded by the attack.

The Wound Pool
Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing. Keep the dice that have scored Wounds and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a Wound. Sometimes an attack will gain a bonus or special rule depending on the results rolled To Hit or To Wound (for example, due to the Rending special rule).
If you caused any such Wounds, split them into separate Wound pools. All Wounds with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the Wounds are the same, as will most often be the case, there will only be one Wound pool.


So you roll to wound 1D6 for each hit. Then you summ up all the wounds and allocate them to the unit (maybe separate different AP wound and Ignore cover wounds)

Thankfully that clears up the confusion!

So... What my first post said.. glad it took a bunch more to say the same thing.. wow

Pistols. All models with Shuriken Pistols that have not yet fired do so now.

Yes, but not on a single roll. If you have 3 dude with pistol, this is 3 separate 'To Hit' roll, not a single 'To Hit' roll of 3 shot. The rule says who have to fire all pistol before moving to the next weapon. But you don't have to roll them all at the same time, they are separete.

Hence why shen shooting with 3 guy with a rapid fire Plasma gun, you should do 3 'To Hit' roll of 2 dice each, not a single 'To Hit' roll of 6 dice.

And for the range thing, you measure range when you select a weapon. Then all the hits from that type of weapon will occur ''simultaneously'' so removing model doens't matter here. If you have 3 pistol, that are exactly at 12inch of 1 model of a unit. You do 3 'To Hit' ROLL separatly, then do X amount of 'To Woud' ROLL, where X is the amount of 'To Hit'. Finally, this is the wound pool for that weapon. Proceed to remove casualty if any. Then, pick next weapon to shoot.

What PandaHero said.

Each to hit roll is a D6 roll (result is 1-6) rolling 2D6 would mean result in 2-12. So, re-rolling 2D6, you can't reroll 1 of those 2, for example a LD test, but because it requires a SINGLE ROLL of 2D6, rolling to HIT and to WOUND anre 2 ROLLINGS of 1D6.

And actually, rolling a rapid fire, those are 3 models rolling 6 to hit, not 3 to hit of 2 dice, rolling to hit with 2 dice would mean the result is 2 to 12.
The number of shots is diferent than the number of dices used to THE ROLL, You first stablish the number of Shots. You stablish 6 Shots, for the 3 model firing with rapid fire. Then you treat each shot individually, so you do 6 rolls of 1D6. and each of thos that hit, you roll 1D6 for each to wound, and then they get a roll to save of 1D6 for each wound.

Think it of blast. you roll scatter for each blast with 2D6, if there was a rule that let you re roll the scatter, you re roll those 2D6 +scatter, for each blast, not all blast

The best thing to keep in mind is thus:
"Fast Dice" does not turn multiple rolls into one big roll, it is just a way to speed up the process
What you are doing when you roll all To Wound rolls together is nothing more then face dice

JinxDragon wrote:
The best thing to keep in mind is thus:
"Fast Dice" does not turn multiple rolls into one big roll, it is just a way to speed up the process
What you are doing when you roll all To Wound rolls together is nothing more then face dice

Fast dice has nothing to do with rolling to wound, fast dice is for after you wound and dice pools for wound allocation

Dman137 wrote:
[
Fast dice has nothing to do with rolling to wound, fast dice is for after you wound and dice pools for wound allocation

Not quite. It applies when rolling To-Hit as well as To-Wound. It is specifically mentioned for Saves because different models in a unit may have different Saves in it, and so care is needed.

It doesn't change the fact that there usually isn't need to separate out To-Hit and To-Wound on a roll by roll basis like Saves are.

Edit: wrong thread.