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Thunderwolf cavalry have str5 so that is x2 str 10 (5×5) for a thunderhammer on normal shaggysmurfs.

Fine.

But Iron Priests have str 4 +1 when on a thunderwolf wolf so it is str 9 ((4x4)+1)when you have a thunderhammer (or their servo arm, but I digress) so you put them with vanilla shaggy smurfs on wolfback and he is now a bit puny

so why do vanillla riding shaggy smurfs get str10 but character riding shaggy smurfs get str9.

Seems unfair.. how do people play it in practise

Thunderwolves have S5 because their wolf gives them a modifer to str from wargear. That it is already included in the profile does not take away that it is a modifer of +1.

According to modifiers the vanilla riding shaggy smurfs are also S9. Some tournaments have ruled otherwise because of previous editions which had different rules and the SW players were unhappy with being S9. However by the actual rules of the game, even the basic shaggy smurfs with thunder hammers are S9.

the ITC faq- which is a house rule and no way reflects the actual rules of the game as there are no ways to modify stats outside of the modifier system...

Space Wolves

The +1 Strength increase from a Thunderwolf Mount is applied to a model’s base characteristics (i.e. before any modifiers such as doubling).

many people play that way, despite it being completely wrong.

It's 5 in the profile for normal vanillas, so that is not plus anything. So the rules are unambiguous there. The heros DO get a plus 1 modified because it has a unit profile of 4 with a modification.

So are people allowing the heros to get the same benefit as the normal ones because of common sense implications? If so what is the precendent other than "hiwip"?

For me it seems clear it is str 9 for characters, str 10 for vanillas, which seems backwards, but then maybe they lack shaggy dog swing practice I dunno.

ConanMan wrote:
It's 5 in the profile for normal vanillas, so that is not plus anything. So the rules are unambiguous there. The heros DO get a plus 1 modified because it has a unit profile of 4 with a modification.

So are people allowing the heros to get the same benefit as the normal ones because of common sense implications? If so what is the precendent other than "hiwip"?

For me it seems clear it is str 9 for characters, str 10 for vanillas, which seems backwards, but then maybe they lack shaggy dog swing practice I dunno.

(Emphasis mine) The underlined is incorrect.

Remember that the +1 modifier is already included in the Thunderwolf Cavalry statline. So the Thunderwolf Cavalry with a power fist or Thunder Hammer will be Str 9, not Str 10 as per the rules for multiple modifiers in the BRB.

It is Str 9 for both.


P.S. What is a Thundersolf?

Blaktoof is talking about this Rule:
Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
- Thunderwolf Mount

People will argue Thunderwolf Cavalry with Thunder Hammers are S10 but they are generally wilfully ignoring the rules of the Thunderwolf Mount as JinxDragon provided.

I disagree because you are forgetting the unit now has a profile, and a published profile with no special rules discussing str. You are reliant on inferring (emphasis mine) a non existant profile which is outside the scope of the rules and simply not permitted within any of 40k.

So that whole process is a big "no no" and since the rules are already very clear and unambiguous. It also wasn't actually my original question.

To give an example of why: atypical things like blood claws and grey wolves exist in the codex you have no basis for inferring an original profile for them. Nor should you try.

So, sorry, that sort of reductive assertion (how ever instinctive to try to project) is wrong. By that basis you could say a scarab model is 3 models etc etc..

ps: sry for all the edits. They are to repair typos. This forum sucks when using a samsung galaxy note 3. The text is miniscule

ConanMan wrote:I disagree because you are forgetting the unit now has a profile, and a published profile with no special rules discussing str. You are reliant on inferring (emphasis mine) a non existant profile which is outside the scope of the rules and simply not permitted within any of 40k.

So you are saying this:

JinxDragon wrote: Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
- Thunderwolf Mount

Is a misquote?

Or are you saying that Thunderwolf Cavalry do not have Thunderwolf Mounts as part of their standard Wargear?

Because those are the only thing that would support your position. And since you did not provide a quote correction, I'm questioning your assertion.

ConanMan wrote:
I disagree because you are forgetting the unit now has a profile, and a published profile with no special rules discussing str. You are reliant on inferring (emphasis mine) a non existant profile which is outside the scope of the rules and simply not permitted within any of 40k.

So that whole process is a big "no no" and since the rules are already very clear and unambiguous. It also wasn't actually my original question.

Well yes, it was in answer to your actual question - you asked why Thunderwolf Cavalry get S10 while characters get S9, and it was pointed out to you that is not the case.

Given that Thunderwolf Cavalry have a Thunderwolf Mount in their Wargear list we're required to look and see what that wargear does, where we are told they have a +1 modifier to their Strength value already included in their profile.

If you wish to ignore that, that's fine, but you're still ignoring the rules and thus wrong.

.. the only way the rules permit is str 10 AND str 9.. to be honest the rest is a purely a sour sort of grumpy persons imagination guys.. it is not even tenuous what ypu are suggesting.. I feel like I am in the thread about gargantuan creatures shooting..

However I was asking if this is how people play it.. and actually you answered that..

I have since looked and there is a precident, in 5th ed it was FAQ'd to str 10 for both. And since you said the ITC did the same it seems the model IS counted as originally str 5 not as 4+1 after all... i.e. it is not a plus one modifier (like rage in a charge, or a IC ability or pshychic power) but a pre calc base increment. i.e. the models original str is now one greater.

This has other precidents. And I am thinking as I type. You would class the model as having 2wounds originally for purposes of abilities that repair wounds up to the original score.

This has been done before.

A fair few times actually.

There are a few more threads that you can search on this but essentially it's the same argument flying around each and everytime.

My group plays it as profile is the base and you do the modifiers from there so they are Str10 and Str9

ConanMan wrote:
.. the only way the rules permit is str 10 AND str 9.. to be honest the rest is a purely a sour sort of grumpy persons imagination guys.. it is not even tenuous what ypu are suggesting.. I feel like I am in the thread about gargantuan creatures shooting..

You're imagining emotion behind what I'm saying where there is none; I don't have any Space Wolves opponents, and sour and grumpy simply doesn't come into it; I'm simply not choosing to ignore certain rules.

I have since looked and there is a precident, in 5th ed it was FAQ'd to str 10 for both. And since you said the ITC did the same it seems the model IS counted as originally str 5 not as 4+1 after all... i.e. it is not a plus one modifier (like rage in a charge, or a IC ability or pshychic power) but a pre calc base increment. i.e. the models original str is now one greater.

I only recall the 5th edition FAQ speaking of the bonus Toughness value, rather than Strength, but looking at the 5th edition codex Thunderwolf Cavalry did not even have a Thunderwolf Mount as wargear, so in 5th edition they were quite clearly S10 with Thunder Hammers. Unfortunately in 7th edition they do have a Thunderwolf Mount, which tells us there is a +1 bonus which we should not ignore.

This has other precidents. And I am thinking as I type. You would class the model as having 2wounds originally for purposes of abilities that repair wounds up to the original score.

That's not the same as this example at all; for one we're dealing with an issue of applying multiple modifiers, and secondly such abilities tend to only restore wounds actually lost earlier in the game, or other base the 'original score' on what the model started the game with.

In case your wondering op its on page 8 under multiple modifiers.

Raw:- Wolfriders = S10 HQ's = S9

Raw is silly

My RAI:- All users = S10

(Inferred from Bike Tough rules and their interaction with ID)

Raw is NOT s10. As pointed out, actual rules as write can only support s9. This is undeniable using real rules.

aprilmanha wrote:Raw:- Wolfriders = S10 HQ's = S9

Raw is silly

My RAI:- All users = S10

(Inferred from Bike Tough rules and their interaction with ID)

Except for three things, actually.

First is:

JinxDragon wrote: Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
- Thunderwolf Mount

Second, Multiple Modifiers does addition AFTER multiplication and division. So, Strx2, then Str+1. Or in the case of the above Wargear included, Str-1 to return to base, then Strx2, then Str +1.

Third, ID's Toughness check is noted as being performed after all modifiers.

ConanMan wrote:
.. the only way the rules permit is str 10 AND str 9.. to be honest the rest is a purely a sour sort of grumpy persons imagination guys.. it is not even tenuous what ypu are suggesting.. I feel like I am in the thread about gargantuan creatures shooting..

However I was asking if this is how people play it.. and actually you answered that..

I have since looked and there is a precident, in 5th ed it was FAQ'd to str 10 for both. And since you said the ITC did the same it seems the model IS counted as originally str 5 not as 4+1 after all... i.e. it is not a plus one modifier (like rage in a charge, or a IC ability or pshychic power) but a pre calc base increment. i.e. the models original str is now one greater.

This has other precidents. And I am thinking as I type. You would class the model as having 2wounds originally for purposes of abilities that repair wounds up to the original score.

You asked how people played it.

I gave you an answer How I play it, along with how many people play it [ITC FAQ/rules]

the 5th edition faq was a 5th edition faq, there were things that were faqed in previous editions which have changed to the opposite in this edition so its not a useful precedent.

The bottom line are there are no rules for changing base stats, the model has a stat and it is either modified or not. There are rules for how modifiers work. There is no other way at all anywhere to change stats. The thunderwolf wargear specifically says its a bonus, this is a modifier. This has been discussed many times before here and on other forums- someone even kindly linked the other discussions above some posts. However RAW there is no way at all to change stats outside of modifiers, and as it is a modifier from wargear it has to follow the rules from modifiers. So how it works RAW, and how people play at are different. You should just be happy one of the people involved on making ITC rules plays SWes so they ended up getting a ruling in thair favor that makes no sense just like the ITC rules for FMC for daemons and nids which are totally unrelated to this topic in every way other then being bad house rules made by the ITC to favor certain armies played by people who write the "faq" which should really be called house rules.

RaW they are all S9 however GW have made it clear they are all supposed to be S10 some people want to gain any unfair advantage they can so will try to argue for S9 and hide behind RaW for their houserule. Check with your opponent or TO to see if they want to use a house rule or whether they want to play by the 40k rules and thus have them S10.

 FlingitNow wrote:
RaW they are all S9 however GW have made it clear they are all supposed to be S10 some people want to gain any unfair advantage they can so will try to argue for S9 and hide behind RaW for their houserule. Check with your opponent or TO to see if they want to use a house rule or whether they want to play by the 40k rules and thus have them S10.

By "GW have made it clear" do you mean GW made it clear for a different iteration of the rule set, 2 editions ago?

Any other 5th edition rulings you rely on to show the "true" 40k rules?

Because the actual rules point to S9. Feel free to hosuerule S10 if you wish, and your opponent agrees.

Remember when Game Workshop used to put a reminder on the profile when these things happened.
Strength: 4 (5)

Now they simply write an explicit rule informing you it is a modifier. Why some think this can be ignored (or even claimed as not being the actual rule, by one) is impressive.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
RaW they are all S9 however GW have made it clear they are all supposed to be S10 some people want to gain any unfair advantage they can so will try to argue for S9 and hide behind RaW for their houserule. Check with your opponent or TO to see if they want to use a house rule or whether they want to play by the 40k rules and thus have them S10.

By "GW have made it clear" do you mean GW made it clear for a different iteration of the rule set, 2 editions ago?

Any other 5th edition rulings you rely on to show the "true" 40k rules?

Because the actual rules point to S9. Feel free to hosuerule S10 if you wish, and your opponent agrees.

Yes the only time GW has offered clarity on this issue they've said S10. Infiltrating Shrike is another time we need to go to a 5th Ed ruling to know how the rules work.

Feel free to house rule is as S9 if your opponent agrees.

Well GW made it clear that Tyranids had access to Biomancy. Does that mean they should still have access?

If you think your strawman is relevant I can't help you.

Can we please get this thread locked? It has been discussed multiple times on this board and has invariably devolved to bitter squabbling without resolution.

Leaving the thread open serves no useful purpose. Thanks.

JinxDragon wrote:
Remember when Game Workshop used to put a reminder on the profile when these things happened.
Strength: 4 (5)

Instead, they just put it in the Wargear.

I guess referencing is too hard?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Raw is NOT s10. As pointed out, actual rules as write can only support s9. This is undeniable using real rules.

Let's not pretend there's a 100% consensus on this (I'm personally firmly in the HQ's are S9, regular cavalry is S10 camp). Unless GW FAQ's it, Dakka is just going to keep going around in circles.

I wish it were resolved, since it makes a ton of difference when you're fighting T5 multiwound opponents.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
. Raw is NOT s10 As pointed out, actual rules as write can only support s9. This is undeniable using real rules.

Let's not pretend there's a 100% consensus on this (I'm personally firmly in the HQ's are S9, regular cavalry is S10 camp). Unless GW FAQ's it, Dakka is just going to keep going around in circles.

I wish it were resolved, since it makes a ton of difference when you're fighting T5 multiwound opponents.

There isn't a consensus because people do not follow the RAW.

RAW is 9 for both, because of the modifiers rule. This is indisputable.

S10 is a house rule, nothing more.

 DeathReaper wrote:
RAW is 9 for both, because of the modifiers rule. This is indisputable.

Oh, Mea Culpa, it is indisputable.