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This is a spin off thread from the honor guard thread.

So I have dropped the Eldar argument and moved onto SW and DE.

There was a comment about luring in SW with a cheap dread or Rhino or something. My opponents won't take the bait on that. They are literally never going to let me assault them. Any "bait" will just get shot by grey hunters special weapons or long fangs.

What unit do you think they would go for?

They're going to shoot BA to pieces until they get the assault THEY want. They're going to go for the units they don't want assaulting them. Anything else would be silly on their part. The only real counter is to be shootier and force their hand.

Which isn't an option without allies. Which you've said yuck to.

Do they camp? Have you tried forcing them to come after you? Can you ever pick your own ground to fight?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Which isn't an option without allies. Which you've said yuck to.

Do they camp? Have you tried forcing them to come after you? Can you ever pick your own ground to fight?

I have to out shoot them to force them to come to me. Which the they do anyway once the TWC has the right angle on the DC.

What does the SW run normally?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
What does the SW run normally?

Typically LOTS of Thunder Wolf calvary, and then sometimes Drop Pod Grey Hunters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
What does the SW run normally?

Typically LOTS of Thunder Wolf calvary, and then sometimes Drop Pod Grey Hunters.

Usually two teams of TWC or one death star of TWC. Drop pod grey hunters and often, for some reason, long fangs still.

Forgive me if you've already tried this, but my suggestion based on the list you sent me. Change a tact squad and the stern guard's rhinos to a drop pods. This way you have two pods (plasma sterns & Fragiso) on the first turn to put pressure on the Long Fangs. Use your bikes and tacts to screen both Death Companies. Now here is the trick, one DC squad is the actual bait unit. The bait DC squad should change the power fist to a power sword so you can attack at initiative. And set up the second squad to charge into the TWC after they charged the first. With a little luck you might win the day.

Maybe. But everything in pods is going to die immediately. I really hate suicide Sternguard, because there are too many lists it fails against. And I never put plasma on them, so that's out.

I can understand using Long Fangs still.

Also, changing the Power Fist into a Sword is a terrible idea.

I'm really curious to see your list as well. I live in a really competitive area, so I can definitely help you in certain areas.

I use very different lists, as my win rates don't seem to go up with any particular build.

I use a lot of Rhino-based builds as Rhinos provide good protection from alpha strikes. The DC and bikers usually hide behind the tanks as long as they can.

Martel732 wrote:
I use very different lists, as my win rates don't seem to go up with any particular build.

I use a lot of Rhino-based builds as Rhinos provide good protection from alpha strikes. The DC and bikers usually hide behind the tanks as long as they can.

You must only be taking smaller DC squads if that's the case. I'll often have a 10 man Tac squad in a Rhino, although there's an overcharged Vindicator and Predator providing long range support that could act as shields for the first turn, at least...

I'm torn, as I often run a 10 man DC squad and am looking to include a 10 man SG squad as well (have the models, haven't played with SG yet). I'm regularly up against blobs of Ork Nobz with a Mad Doc, so 4+ saves plus feel no pain requires a hefty amount of attacks to make any real dents in what I'm up against. For smaller games (1,250 and below) I was managing just fine with a 5 man DC squad that held up well against CSM and SM armies.

I use 5 man DC squads usually unless they have a libby with them in which case I make it 10.

10 man SG most games would just die to AP 2.

I'm interested to see some lists that you and your opponents are using Martel, and what your able to put on the table model-wise.
I completely agree you need to out shoot another strong (likely superior assault) army to dictate its movement, at least for competent opponents.

That said I believe BAs are capable of this against SW. I've fielded SW for years in various iterations so I'm familiar with how the army functions in competitive and friendly environments.

DE otoh despite what internet wisdom says really has the upper hand against you unfortunately, and again assuming a competent pilot. However builds will vary so I suppose this might be case by case. I honestly can't remember the last time I felt outmatched vs BA or SW with my dark eldar though.

As I said, my usual lists center around range 18-24 with grav, MM, plasma and Sternguard.Unfortunately, this is right where SW want me. Of course, BA long range options are killing many TWC, either.

Quick question, you mentioned "they can safely ignore objectives till turn 4 or so after they have crippled the BA list".

How do you handle scoring in your missions?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Quick question, you mentioned "they can safely ignore objectives till turn 4 or so after they have crippled the BA list".

How do you handle scoring in your missions?

Usually set mission, no maelstrom. Even if we used maelstrom more, you think BA are going to outmaneuver DE?

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, my usual lists center around range 18-24 with grav, MM, plasma and Sternguard.Unfortunately, this is right where SW want me. Of course, BA long range options are killing many TWC, either.

Ya that IS right where wolves want you, and iirc you aren't open to allied forces or forgeworld.. correct?

Martel732 wrote:Maybe. But everything in pods is going to die immediately. I really hate suicide Sternguard, because there are too many lists it fails against. And I never put plasma on them, so that's out.

Yes it is, but if you take out the long fangs you'll be even. Trading a unit for an enemy unit is acceptable if you gain an advantage. If he loses his long range fire power you gain mobility because there are more safe places for your fast units. Plasma is ideal for suicide squads, the low survivability of plasma gunners is irreverent for this task.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also, changing the Power Fist into a Sword is a terrible idea.

The first DC unit is bait, so I figure they my not survive to initiative one. I would even be tempted to drop 1st squad's PF for another body in the 2nd squad. Depends on how perceptive the SW player is. Don't want to give away your hand too soon.

None of the SW players are going to fall for that. Plus, if they see plasma sternguard, they'll wrap the long fangs and give me no place to land. These people measure legal drop landing spots down to 1/2".

Long fangs aren't the problem IMO and they are better dealt with by something like a fragioso.

Martel- it sounds like your list is pretty much optimized outside of adding outside elements..
I'm assuming your running something like say FTST with 5 scouts, 20 combat squaded rhino sterns bare, 3-4 min sized triple grav bikes plus melta platforms of your choice right?

Similar. Often fewer sterns. It just depends.

Well if 'counts as' is out this is much less viable but have you considered some FW units? I've found relic sicarans (we're ok with baal preds) and fire raptors (real thing) really do work against the armies you listed, and in general really.

Edit- nm the raptor you'd need C:SM allies lol. Wtf huh

I agree, but I would never know when to field them. I might draw Eldar or Necron which just smoke the Sicaran too easily.

I know FW can make BA better, but they get less out of FW than any other list in the game, so I don't see it as worth the $$.

They are as durable as any other av13 chassis, more-so than most due to range of their weaponry.. but I'm talking triplets. Something like this taking into account what you've said and I've seen:

chaplain jp, veritas vitae

ELITES
9 death company jp, 2 pf
5 sternguard rhino
5 sternguard rhino
5 sternguard (combat squad)

TROOPS
5 scouts

FA
5 assault marines- 2 mg, cbmelta, rhino
5 assault marines- 2 mg, cbmelta, rhino
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
rhino

HS
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons

TOTAL- 1851

1 pt over but whatever drop a cbweapon or something. I would feel fairly confident piloting this list against even the strongest lists. While I wouldn't call it favorable in many cases I think it has the tools to give a good showing. And that's even with a concession to my personal addiction to assault/counter assault units.

I know FW can make BA better, but they get less out of FW than any other list in the game, so I don't see it as worth the $$.

Unfortunately at the end of the day your again correct. There's always red marines I guess..
I'm out.

I have found that playing maelstrom makes my BA more viable. They really can't stand up if the mission is just to kill your opponent. I personally would advocate maelstrom missions and if that doesn't go over then there's really nothing you can do.

These suggestions aren't ment to be the end all be all so dont get your panties in a twist y'all. Also playing the "yeah but the X-Y-Z will just blow them up first" is annoying, because I can just say "nuh-uh 'cause A-B-C would happen".
Strategizing doesn't have to devolve in to mean spirited "what ifs". This is pawn sacrifice straight up. Giving up a cheap unit to get a death star.

BAIT:
1. A 10 man tac squad with just bolters (to keep'em cheap) with a rhino can camp an objective. Theyre earning VPs and are juicy target. With an extra sb on the rhino they can tap the TWC for a wound a turn. Use said rhino to provide mobil cover or tank shock/herd the TWC into the right spot.

2. A regular old tl ac dread in cover is pretty survivable. It can also put a wound per turn on TWC & are versatile enough to hurt a lot of other targets.

Hammers:
1. Dante, sangpriest and 5 sangguard. Sitting in the backfield waiting to counter assault. Against meq Dantes a monster. If you wanna keep it cheap get a captain.

2. Three land speeders with cml & ac. Deep strike in (hopefully you've rolled DOA) to the side without the SS's & fire away.

3. 10 man sternpod with combi plas. Once you lure them outta cover drop on the side without SS's and drill'em.

Is it perfect? Easy? Nope. If you want that play eldar or 'crons. Use bait to put enemy units in the right spot, then jump'em. The pawn sacrifice strategy goes well with the msu lists.

No one needs to expend any particularly large effort to wreck a 10 man tac squad or a dreadnought. They're gunning for the hammer units, not the crap.

Martel732 wrote:
No one needs to expend any particularly large effort to wreck a 10 man tac squad or a dreadnought. They're gunning for the hammer units, not the crap.

The hammer units, as I mentioned are either in reserve or hidden away. When he comes out a'gunning he leaves the security of his fire support umbrella. At which point its safer to bring in the hammers and attack him.

Ignoring a 10 man tac on an objective with a rhino ain't easy. Not only can they score a wound per turn their footprint is large. Going around them aint easy, and TWC aren't skimmers or jumpers. They cant go over them to get to your hammers.

The dread in covers a real nuisance. Maybe not like the tac squad, but it still scores and wounds big stuff at 48".

Feint. Thrust. Its a tactic. We either build strategies or buy allies.