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Might be Maelstrom rules and terrain too

@th3maninblak

Were the eldar army's constructed using "tournament rules"? Rules that allow only 1 LoW or no formations?

Even one WK is a huge problem for BA, though.

Martel732 wrote:
Even one WK is a huge problem for BA, though.

Isn't that what grav-spam bikers are for? Turn one: get into position, Turn two: pop combi-gravs and take down Wraithknight?

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even one WK is a huge problem for BA, though.

Isn't that what grav-spam bikers are for? Turn one: get into position, Turn two: pop combi-gravs and take down Wraithknight?

Yeah, but what if there's more than one? Or 1 wk plus a big squad of wg? Im having trouble seeing it, the road to victory with this army list against Eldar. Twice.

As for DE, drop heavy flamers from tac & sternguard? With Corbulo in one for a plus 1 initiative & ws bubble? That'll help with wych & haemonculous monster counter charge.

Not nerf so much as limit things like detachment numbers and lords of war. Like you can field a wraithknight, but only one. The only army that gets around that is imperial knights.

The first eldar opponent was using a pretty standard list with 12 scat bikes, a few wave serpents, and a couple squads of various aspect warriors. The second I can't really count, as he was playing old school foot-dar using like every decurion style formation he could. To be fair though, he has been playing eldar since like 3rd or 4th edition, is one of the better players at our shop and had tabled his previous opponents (met him in the final round).

And thank you for the compliment on my tac squad setup! I swear by it, at this point.

Edit: formations were allowed, but had a 0-1 LoW limit. Decurion style detachments were also allowed. As for terrain, it was pretty heavy. Usually ruins near the 4 corners, a large piece of line of sight blocking terrain in the center, and area terrain scattered throughout the table.

 Red Marine wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even one WK is a huge problem for BA, though.

Isn't that what grav-spam bikers are for? Turn one: get into position, Turn two: pop combi-gravs and take down Wraithknight?

Yeah, but what if there's more than one? Or 1 wk plus a big squad of wg? Im having trouble seeing it, the road to victory with this army list against Eldar. Twice.

As for DE, drop heavy flamers from tac & sternguard? With Corbulo in one for a plus 1 initiative & ws bubble? That'll help with wych & haemonculous monster counter charge.

That's why you take more than one squad of grav bikers. Three minimum squads with all combi-gravs should be able to kill a Wraithknight. Sternguard are best left for combi-meltas for taking out a second Wraithknight or other superheavy (though you'll need some extra ranged support for the second one).

Dual Heavy Flamers in a Drop Pod Tac Squad are great against troops in Raiders, but not against Venom Spam. Unfortunately, that's all the Heavy Flamers are good for. No sane DE player takes Wyches; they're one of the worst units in the codex. While they would work well against Reaver jetbikes, they have the mobility to avoid the squad entirely. Incubi have too good a save (along with most HQ characters thanks to LoS!), and the Coven units are tough enough to shrug off even two heavy flamers. All of the units I mentioned are nasty enough to cut the Tac squad to ribbons and tie up/potentially kill Corbulo. Incubi, especially as bodyguards to a CC Archon or Succubus, can give Death company a run for their money if they get the charge. Reavers are nasty with their Bladevanes and Cluster Caltrops on the charge. Coven units don't care about you having more Initiative; they're just crazy tough fro their price. Pain Engines are tough enough to tie most any unit up, and Grotesques will wear you down through sheer number of S5 attacks and T5 wounds you have to chew through.

If I was using troops in pods, I'd make them dual melta Assault Marines and leave the Tac Marines in a Rhino/Razorback. Don't underestimate Dark Eldar in the assault; they have plenty of units that will eat anything short of Sanguinary Guard/Dante/Mephiston/Death Company, and threaten those units as well.

Edit: Double Post.

Yeah, but then wave 2 comes to rescue the first wave of pods. If the DE are dealing with the poders they didnt deal properly with the lr that went flat out last turn. And make sure you drop a dread. Squish little grotesque wannabe monstrous creatures.

 Red Marine wrote:
Yeah, but then wave 2 comes to rescue the first wave of pods. If the DE are dealing with the poders they didnt deal properly with the lr that went flat out last turn. And make sure you drop a dread. Squish little grotesque wannabe monstrous creatures.

Dreads and Land Raiders would be great...if every Dark Eldar vehicle wasn't packing at least one S8 AP2 Lance weapon. Ant that's not even touching Haywire/Heat Lance Scourges dropping in. In any case, it's often a matter of who gets the first turn and who makes the charge.

Honestly, despite what Martel732 will say, it's often an even matchup between your average Dark Eldar or Space Wolf Army and your average Blood Angel army. Where things get problematic is when you get to the highly competitive level. Blood Angels will struggle against ThunderCav/Wolfstar and things like Jimsolo's Freakshow lists (look those up; as it turns out, Harlequins are incredibly good!). But I think that mono-Blood Angels could work at that level with something like MSU Death Company with Grav Biker and character support. I'm not familiar with Blood Angels, so what would that kind of list look like? From what Martel732 has posted before, he should have the units to make a list like that.

Since WK can't fire Overwatch, Dantestar(Dante, Sanguinary Guard with Swords and Axes, Sanguinary Priest) does stand a fair chance of cutting apart a Wraithknight. Dante's stupid amount of attacks at I7 plus a bunch of Sanguinary Guard attacks at I5 means it is going to be having to make a lot of saves. But they are going to need to kill it before it can retaliate, because they WILL get stomped to death. Unfortunately, with W6, the numbers aren't in their favor.

Martel732 wrote:
I have fielded several lists similar to that and get tabled by Eldar. I just don't get it.

Martel I think you have too many expensive FA and Elites choices in your list. 10x Scouts with a 2+ and Endurance can soak up 1485pts of Scatterbike fire, unsupported Grav bikers die under 135pts. If your premium units don't apply damage and cripple Eldar in T1 you will lose, and those units are not hurting your opponents enough.

Example, Flamer Tacs in a Las/Plas Razorback. 185pts. Let's say there are equivalent points in Scatterbikes facing you (about 7). If he fires first, you get glanced about 6 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose. If you fire first, best-case scenario you kill 3 Bikes. If he fires back, you get glanced ~3.5 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose.

You literally have a better chance using dismounted Tacs with a missile launcher. Equal points is about 3 Jetbikes. You fire first, you kill a Jetbike. He fires, you lose a Tac or two. You fire again, he loses the 2nd Jetbike. You lose a 3rd Tac. He loses his final Jetbike. You win.

Actually just kidding, I used a BS5 Dev squad because Tacs suck. But I wanted to show you something. Premium FA and Elites such as Bike units, Sternguard, DC/Sang/Command squads cannot deliver damage quickly enough to make a difference. Then they get shot off the table. You need to organize to cripple his outgoing damage ASAP and survive 5-7 turns of attrition. When a 3+ model is 20-31pts, it cannot survive long enough to win the fight, and if it's embarked, or short-range and outmaneuvered, it won't even get there.

So dude you are not wrong. But you're not going to win by relying on "good" units, you need some chaff to soak up fire while you grind down the Scatterbikes. Or you need an AV13 wall and AV14 flank, to keep everything screened long enough to get into strike range. Gladius has a few hundred free points to throw away on the approach but you will need to be more clever.

This is the same problem with DE and SW. I looked over Grav bikes, a 3+ Jink or 3++/4+++ will blunt your damage and then you cannot survive the return. I'm guessing you can't crank up your shooting any more without FW or allies. So at this point, what you need to do is build a more resilient list and angle harder for first-turn damage from every single unit on the board.

Obviously a multi-unit list gets more complicated than that, but I think this explains your Scatterbike frustrations.

We can't beat any competitive Eldar lists except perhaps the webway portal/d-scythe list, and we need to tailor vs that one. Eldar are in no way required to take Wraithknights either to beat us, but it does help. A simple aspect host list will most likely table a mono BA list in 3-4 turns.

Mono DA lists are rock paper scissors depending on what we bring, we need mostly durable assault units (bikes with IC' and MSU DC if table is terrain heavy) and units that can force jinks reliably. If you bring alot of shooting, you will probably loose.

Space Wolves is a pretty close matchup, but the puppies have a small edge on avg.

I was a big fan of the drop pod melta ASM when the codex hit, but in practice i think they are quite bad due to the meta. People just don't bring mech anymore and you will often run into jinking transports. It's good vs IG, but you should have a decent chanse vs them regardless. They are still good vs multiple knights, but how often do you see that? Knights weakness are not melta, but msu in most missions. And power armor models are the ideal tarpit knight unit.

I met 2 lists with knights last tournament, small bike squads/MM attack back were able to deal with the knight and when facing non mech lists they felt way more useful than suicide melta squads podding in. ASM really shine taking the free Rhino running 2 melta or plasma. Scouts are miles better than tacticals in the troop slot even with bs3 ws3.

BA get much better with allies. I don't really agree with the argument 'i might as well play something else' because personally i enjoy playing BA, but i don't enjoy getting tabeled on a consistant basis. It's rare to see mono DA or SW in a tournament, and in casual homegames BA book is actually pretty balanced if not all players are building WAAC lists. The difference between these settings are huge. For homegames i usually tone down my mono BA lists, but in tournaments i struggle even if i bring allies, but it keeps the game interesting as it's still possible to compete with them.

Just my personal opinion

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have fielded several lists similar to that and get tabled by Eldar. I just don't get it.

Martel I think you have too many expensive FA and Elites choices in your list. 10x Scouts with a 2+ and Endurance can soak up 1485pts of Scatterbike fire, unsupported Grav bikers die under 135pts. If your premium units don't apply damage and cripple Eldar in T1 you will lose, and those units are not hurting your opponents enough.

Example, Flamer Tacs in a Las/Plas Razorback. 185pts. Let's say there are equivalent points in Scatterbikes facing you (about 7). If he fires first, you get glanced about 6 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose. If you fire first, best-case scenario you kill 3 Bikes. If he fires back, you get glanced ~3.5 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose.

You literally have a better chance using dismounted Tacs with a missile launcher. Equal points is about 3 Jetbikes. You fire first, you kill a Jetbike. He fires, you lose a Tac or two. You fire again, he loses the 2nd Jetbike. You lose a 3rd Tac. He loses his final Jetbike. You win.

Actually just kidding, I used a BS5 Dev squad because Tacs suck. But I wanted to show you something. Premium FA and Elites such as Bike units, Sternguard, DC/Sang/Command squads cannot deliver damage quickly enough to make a difference. Then they get shot off the table. You need to organize to cripple his outgoing damage ASAP and survive 5-7 turns of attrition. When a 3+ model is 20-31pts, it cannot survive long enough to win the fight, and if it's embarked, or short-range and outmaneuvered, it won't even get there.

So dude you are not wrong. But you're not going to win by relying on "good" units, you need some chaff to soak up fire while you grind down the Scatterbikes. Or you need an AV13 wall and AV14 flank, to keep everything screened long enough to get into strike range. Gladius has a few hundred free points to throw away on the approach but you will need to be more clever.

This is the same problem with DE and SW. I looked over Grav bikes, a 3+ Jink or 3++/4+++ will blunt your damage and then you cannot survive the return. I'm guessing you can't crank up your shooting any more without FW or allies. So at this point, what you need to do is build a more resilient list and angle harder for first-turn damage from every single unit on the board.

Obviously a multi-unit list gets more complicated than that, but I think this explains your Scatterbike frustrations.

Maybe you're right, but the "good" units work the field pretty well relatively speaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Remtek wrote:
We can't beat any competitive Eldar lists except perhaps the webway portal/d-scythe list, and we need to tailor vs that one. Eldar are in no way required to take Wraithknights either to beat us, but it does help. A simple aspect host list will most likely table a mono BA list in 3-4 turns.

Mono DA lists are rock paper scissors depending on what we bring, we need mostly durable assault units (bikes with IC' and MSU DC if table is terrain heavy) and units that can force jinks reliably. If you bring alot of shooting, you will probably loose.

Space Wolves is a pretty close matchup, but the puppies have a small edge on avg.

I was a big fan of the drop pod melta ASM when the codex hit, but in practice i think they are quite bad due to the meta. People just don't bring mech anymore and you will often run into jinking transports. It's good vs IG, but you should have a decent chanse vs them regardless. They are still good vs multiple knights, but how often do you see that? Knights weakness are not melta, but msu in most missions. And power armor models are the ideal tarpit knight unit.

I met 2 lists with knights last tournament, small bike squads/MM attack back were able to deal with the knight and when facing non mech lists they felt way more useful than suicide melta squads podding in. ASM really shine taking the free Rhino running 2 melta or plasma. Scouts are miles better than tacticals in the troop slot even with bs3 ws3.

BA get much better with allies. I don't really agree with the argument 'i might as well play something else' because personally i enjoy playing BA, but i don't enjoy getting tabeled on a consistant basis. It's rare to see mono DA or SW in a tournament, and in casual homegames BA book is actually pretty balanced if not all players are building WAAC lists. The difference between these settings are huge. For homegames i usually tone down my mono BA lists, but in tournaments i struggle even if i bring allies, but it keeps the game interesting as it's still possible to compete with them.

Just my personal opinion

Everyone is pointing to libby conclave as the thing to do. Invis melee guys are invis melee guys I guess. It's probably the only ally the BA really have that's going to make a difference. IK are just more victim units, imo.

Grav Cents, T-Fire Cannon, Drop Skitarii, White Scars and several more that can make BA lists better. While it's true it would probably be better to remove BA altogheter, you can still make a usable core with 70% BA then throw in some good shooting units from other books or a force multiplier. If someone says they are playing Grey Knights, i expect they have some form of allies. I feel BA is in the same place, except weaker. We can make better mono fluffy lists, but competitive wise our book is very small.

Remtek wrote:
Grav Cents, T-Fire Cannon, Drop Skitarii, White Scars and several more that can make BA lists better. While it's true it would probably be better to remove BA altogheter, you can still make a usable core with 70% BA then throw in some good shooting units from other books or a force multiplier. If someone says they are playing Grey Knights, i expect they have some form of allies. I feel BA is in the same place, except weaker. We can make better mono fluffy lists, but competitive wise our book is very small.

Mono GK actually don't do too bad. Lvl 3 Libs, Draigo and Dreadknights prop the book up. As with anything though, they're better with allies.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right, but the "good" units work the field pretty well relatively speaking.

I'n not disputing that but the3maninblak's list has 36 models and 5 vehicles. These numbers aren't far off from Deathwing!

Your sturdiest units are:

- Scouts (in cover)
- Assault Marines (free Rhino)
- Devastators (14ppm ablatives)
- Rhinos and Whirlwinds (45/65ppm)
- Drop pods (35ppm)
- Quad Mortar (60pts)

In a dual CAD list focused around economy, you can field 74 infantry models, 8 vehicles, 5MLs to buff 8x Lascannons, a +1 Init/+1 WS aura, some of the best CC support and beatsticks in the game, and a 56% chance to Seize. This is like a demi-company numbers except you probably suck way less in assault.

I know you are attached to those fast shooty units, but they're like bishops who can only trade for pawns.

So wait a minute, we lose to Eldar warhost lists? How? The list I posted probably isn't even my strongest, just MAYBE my best at that points level. The scatbike spam lists are definitely an uphill fight, one that I have to pull out some tricks to win. But I learned to play this game with 4th edition chaos during 5th ed, and my 2 opponents played MSU mech guard at its height. I literally started playing this game using one of the weakest armies in the game consistently playing against one of the best. Even using my best list against the most cut throat eldar army I can bash my skull into, it STILL doesn't feel as bad as old chaos vs the best guard book ever printed.

One thing to remember is that scat bikes suffer from leadership issues pretty hard. You don't usually have to kill them all, maybe just enough to force a morale test and then with a bit of luck, they fall back 3d6 off the table. The marine 1st company task force does a fantastic job of this and gives you ready made allies in the form of drop sternguard. Fear of the dark is also back breaking in these circumstances.

My current MSU BA list puts 11 separate units on the table, not including dedicated transports. Against Eldar, I have a small unit of grav bikes to concuss it and strip some wounds, alongside a couple lazorbacks to at least hurt it before I multi assault with small squads of death co to let the fists finish it off. And before you say it'll never happen, that is EXACTLY how I handle wraithknights. Remember that on the charge our power fists wound it on 3s.

To deal with bikes, I have 2x5 sternguard with various combis and a fragnought podding in on turn1, with 2 more sternguard units dropping in later. Thats enough to at least force ld6 tests on 3 different bike units unless they've reserved or spread out to high hell, in which case they have lost a significant portion of their turn 1 firepower.

One thing to remember is that scat bikes suffer from leadership issues pretty hard. You don't usually have to kill them all, maybe just enough to force a morale test and then with a bit of luck, they fall back 3d6 off the table.

This is how you deal with scatbikes. It's also one reason those aformentioned elite units are better then scouts. Now I'm a huge fan of scouts and I've run lists with upwards of 40 but they just don't present a proper threat against the meta dominating units. Forcing moral checks and jink is a huge part of this game right now due to eldar and so is dealing with GMCs and meq/mech. Scouts are solid but they don't address those issues, while having a plan hinging on psych buffs isn't reliable due to farseers and conclaves among other things.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have fielded several lists similar to that and get tabled by Eldar. I just don't get it.

Martel I think you have too many expensive FA and Elites choices in your list. 10x Scouts with a 2+ and Endurance can soak up 1485pts of Scatterbike fire, unsupported Grav bikers die under 135pts. If your premium units don't apply damage and cripple Eldar in T1 you will lose, and those units are not hurting your opponents enough.

Example, Flamer Tacs in a Las/Plas Razorback. 185pts. Let's say there are equivalent points in Scatterbikes facing you (about 7). If he fires first, you get glanced about 6 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose. If you fire first, best-case scenario you kill 3 Bikes. If he fires back, you get glanced ~3.5 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose.

You literally have a better chance using dismounted Tacs with a missile launcher. Equal points is about 3 Jetbikes. You fire first, you kill a Jetbike. He fires, you lose a Tac or two. You fire again, he loses the 2nd Jetbike. You lose a 3rd Tac. He loses his final Jetbike. You win.

Actually just kidding, I used a BS5 Dev squad because Tacs suck. But I wanted to show you something. Premium FA and Elites such as Bike units, Sternguard, DC/Sang/Command squads cannot deliver damage quickly enough to make a difference. Then they get shot off the table. You need to organize to cripple his outgoing damage ASAP and survive 5-7 turns of attrition. When a 3+ model is 20-31pts, it cannot survive long enough to win the fight, and if it's embarked, or short-range and outmaneuvered, it won't even get there.

So dude you are not wrong. But you're not going to win by relying on "good" units, you need some chaff to soak up fire while you grind down the Scatterbikes. Or you need an AV13 wall and AV14 flank, to keep everything screened long enough to get into strike range. Gladius has a few hundred free points to throw away on the approach but you will need to be more clever.

This is the same problem with DE and SW. I looked over Grav bikes, a 3+ Jink or 3++/4+++ will blunt your damage and then you cannot survive the return. I'm guessing you can't crank up your shooting any more without FW or allies. So at this point, what you need to do is build a more resilient list and angle harder for first-turn damage from every single unit on the board.

Obviously a multi-unit list gets more complicated than that, but I think this explains your Scatterbike frustrations.

Notsureifserious.gif.

Yoyoyo, are you trying to give out bad advice? Because what you wrote could not be more ineffective.

If you're comparing Tac Marines to Scatbikers, the Tac Marines will always lose. Scatbikers simply put out entirely too much firepower for their cost. Second, Scatbikers are usually fielded in groups of five in order to maximize the firepower for a small footprint. third, you admitted that your math was intentionally misleading.

The "premium" units for Blood Angels are where the massed firepower is concentrated for the army. Tac Marines and Scouts are not versatile enough to handle the kind of threats out there in the current game. If you want, chaff, use minimum-size Scouts for scoring objectives. Martel732 himself has pointed out that Bolter Scouts with Camo Cloaks and Melta Bombs have been decent for their cost. Casting Endurance on a giant blob of Scouts sounds like a good idea...until you realize that Scouts are only T3 and Scatbikers will negate that FNP .

An AV13/14 wall? Yeah, because Eldar of all types are known for their crippling lack or ranged anti-tank. They lack S8, Melta, or D-weapon shooting of any kind. In fact, Eldar have only gotten worse in that respect with their new codex!

Blood Angels cannot rely on the same sort of tactics as vanilla Marines to be effective. They have to concentrate on the unique and effective units in their own codex if they don't want to rely on allies. I don't play Blood Angels, and even I can figure this out.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right, but the "good" units work the field pretty well relatively speaking.

I'n not disputing that but the3maninblak's list has 36 models and 5 vehicles. These numbers aren't far off from Deathwing!

Your sturdiest units are:

- Scouts (in cover)
- Assault Marines (free Rhino)
- Devastators (14ppm ablatives)
- Rhinos and Whirlwinds (45/65ppm)

In a dual CAD list focused around economy, you can field 74 infantry models, 8 vehicles, 5MLs to buff 8x Lascannons, a +1 Init/+1 WS aura, some of the best CC support and beatsticks in the game, and a 56% chance to Seize. This is like a demi-company numbers except you probably suck way less in assault.

I know you are attached to those fast shooty units, but they're like bishops who can only trade for pawns.

Scouts in cover with Camo Cloaks can do work, but nly as warm bodies to hold objectives. If you want real durability, you're better off elsewhere.
Assault marines are nothing compared to Death Company. One free Rhino or Drop Pod also won't make a difference.
Devastators are effective, but very squishy. Predators are more durable and cheaper as well.
Rhinos and Whirlwinds are hardly durable. AV11 is where Dark Eldar top off. Scatbikers and any sort of S6/7 shooting cut through Rhinos easily.

Fast shooty and choppy units are what Blood Angles are all about. If you want to try using the tactics you're espousing, Yoyoyo, play vanilla marines.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Casting Endurance on a giant blob of Scouts sounds like a good idea...until you realize that Scouts are only T3 and Scatbikers will negate that FNP

Scouts are T4 right?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Casting Endurance on a giant blob of Scouts sounds like a good idea...until you realize that Scouts are only T3 and Scatbikers will negate that FNP

Scouts are T4 right?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The rest of my points still stand.

Stick around, you might learn something

@themaninblak, I like the LD warfare angle. What else does BA have for LD manipulation?

@Dominus, I agree with your general principles, however couldn't we also force Jink dilemmas and LD fails using a single HK missile? That means we can stay MSU and assault focused. Pure shooting can also be shut down through Psykers (Invis and Fortune mean it takes 160 Grav shots to kill a WK), so neutralizing Seer Council has to be a priority in general. DE and SW probably won't be able to shut our Psychic game down as hard.

@NewBlood, they are still T4 3+ models at the top of turn 1. If it bleeds, we can kill it

Fear of the Dark, the Crown Angelic, Death Masks, and Dante's relic. That's why I brought up the 1st Company Task Force formation, as any enemy unit within 12in of at least 3 units of the formation (drop pods included) suffers a -2 penalty to their leadership. With sternguard in pods, you can easily cover a large area in leadership penalties. At that point we just have to take advantage of it, either via shooting morale tests, fear, or the FotD psychic power. To be fair, this strategy doesn't work as well against marines, but we don't necessarily need that much help against them.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Fear of the Dark, the Crown Angelic, Death Masks, and Dante's relic. That's why I brought up the 1st Company Task Force formation, as any enemy unit within 12in of at least 3 units of the formation (drop pods included) suffers a -2 penalty to their leadership. With sternguard in pods, you can easily cover a large area in leadership penalties. At that point we just have to take advantage of it, either via shooting morale tests, fear, or the FotD psychic power. To be fair, this strategy doesn't work as well against marines, but we don't necessarily need that much help against them.

They also gain preferred enemy against one unit and all models (including the pods I think) gain fear and fearless.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Fear of the Dark, the Crown Angelic, Death Masks, and Dante's relic. That's why I brought up the 1st Company Task Force formation, as any enemy unit within 12in of at least 3 units of the formation (drop pods included) suffers a -2 penalty to their leadership. With sternguard in pods, you can easily cover a large area in leadership penalties. At that point we just have to take advantage of it, either via shooting morale tests, fear, or the FotD psychic power. To be fair, this strategy doesn't work as well against marines, but we don't necessarily need that much help against them.

They also gain preferred enemy against one unit and all models (including the pods I think) gain fear and fearless.

Precisely! Which makes their combi melta and plasma guns very good at helping bring down Wraithknights. Being able to take out 2 to 3 bike squads on the first turn severely decreases the amount of firepower we have to stare down. Wraithknights, while scary, aren't that offensively powerful at range. 2 shots at bs4, even at str D, isn't all that scary against things that aren't vehicles or monsters. Here's the list I've been working on.

1,850 Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Brother Corbulo
Warlord

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-Furioso Dreadnought
Frag Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Magna Grapple
Drop pod

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Vet sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-3x Bikers
2x grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation
Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod

I like that Sternguard formation, it has so much general utility and really takes pressure off the more dangerous BA units advancing upfield. I also added Drop Pods to the 'sturdy' list. They are 3HP for 35pts after all!

Onto your LD warfare list, you can add:
- Mephiston, Transfixing Gaze (which overrides Invisibility)
- Psychic Shriek, Terrify, and Dominate
- Battle of Calth (-1Ld to enemy warlord within 12")
- Intimidating Presence WL Trait (enemy units within 12" use lowest LD value)
- Quad Mortar (forces Pinning at -1LD)

Yoyoyo wrote:
I like that Sternguard formation, it has so much general utility and really takes pressure off the more dangerous BA units advancing upfield. I also added Drop Pods to the 'sturdy' list. They are 3HP for 35pts after all!

Onto your LD warfare list, you can add:
- Mephiston, Transfixing Gaze (which overrides Invisibility)
- Psychic Shriek, Terrify, and Dominate
- Battle of Calth (-1Ld to enemy warlord within 12")
- Intimidating Presence WL Trait (enemy units within 12" use lowest LD value)

So is this kind of like Freakshow lists but with Blood Angels? I'm kind of digging the idea of that. Its very unique in the grand scheme of things.

 th3maninblak wrote:


Precisely! Which makes their combi melta and plasma guns very good at helping bring down Wraithknights. Being able to take out 2 to 3 bike squads on the first turn severely decreases the amount of firepower we have to stare down. Wraithknights, while scary, aren't that offensively powerful at range. 2 shots at bs4, even at str D, isn't all that scary against things that aren't vehicles or monsters. Here's the list I've been working on.

1,850 Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Brother Corbulo
Warlord

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-Furioso Dreadnought
Frag Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Magna Grapple
Drop pod

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Vet sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-3x Bikers
2x grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation
Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod

Finally! A list posted in this thread that doesn't suck! I still have some questions and comments though.

Where is Brother Corbulo going? Is he joining the Sternguard? I don't think that he fits the theme of the list well. I would argue for a ML2 Librarian with Gallian's Staff rolling on Sanguinary if you're dead set on the leadership shenanigans.

Not quite sold on the dual hand flamers on the Veteran sarges. Combi-flamers would be better IMO.

If we're going to use the 1st Company Task Force, we might as well go full-turkey. Drop the biker squad to give everyone in the Sternguard Squads a Combi-weapon. I'd recommend two squads of full combi-melta, one combi-grav, and one combi-plasma. Take out Wraithknights with the combi-gravs and combi-meltas, kill Scatbikers with the Fragioso and the combi-plasmas. Death Company clean up whatever's left.

It may involve using a formation from the vanilla marine book, but at this point Blood Angels need all the help they can get. If anybody asks questions, point out that since the Blood Angels are codex-compliant the formation could be from the BA 1st Company.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
So is this kind of like Freakshow lists but with Blood Angels? I'm kind of digging the idea of that. Its very unique in the grand scheme of things.

Ha, I don't know if there's a "list" exactly... just looking what tools are available. Credit has to go to th3maninblak. But LD warfare is a really astute way to play BA. They aren't swimming in firepower, so it's smart to look for other methods to create advantage.

In fact, BA just got access to a Barrage 4 Mortar, for 60pts, that forces Pinning tests at -1LD. That's crazy! Added to the LD manipulation list above and here's the link for more info. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660091.page

I'm still looking at the potential to stack bonuses from the various BA IC Auras, it's probably a dead-end but it might be fun to see how far it can be taken.

Corbulo serves the purpose of granting the reroll (which has saved my butt on several occasions) and passing out his +1ws and init bubble. He rides with the non vet sgt tac squad and zips around to support the death co. Since their numbers are so small, they need as many attacks as possible to hit home. Plus he's cheap. I'm not really trying to go with a full leadership setup here, mainly capitalizing on the fact that scat bikes are weak to the 1st CTF formation, and sternguard are awesome in general.

I don't think that replacing corbulo with a libby is a great idea, as d6+2 warp charges at 1850 isn't very reliable. Swapping the bikes out for a full compliment of combis on the sternguard is something I had not considered, but it does take another cheap threat off of the table t1 before the pods come in.

Edit: there was another list i was toying around with though, that involved mephiston and a lvl2 libby in a pod with a command squad, both rolling sanguinary alongside the task force. Could be used as the basis of a freakshow list.