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Out of curiosity, if a "Tier List" were to be made for the current 40k armies, where would you place them? Not counting Allies, as that just adds another level to it.

S-Tier
Eldar

A-Tier
Necrons, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Daemons, Imperial Knights

B-Tier
Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Skitarii, Tau, Tyranids

C-Tier
Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Cult Mechanicus

D-Tier
CSM, Blood Angels


Agree/Disagree?

I'd agree somewhat, but allies also throws a wrench in making these clean distinctions. I would argue instead that its team Eldar at the top, followed by the armies of the imperium and Necrons, then team chaos and tau, and finally tyranids and orks

Going by strongest mono builds possible, I agree.
Going by average power level I would change a little. Not much, but a little.

You forgot Kdk what I mainly play. I would say they are a C for fluffy list or B if strong units spam.

I'd maybe put Sisters above Imperial Guard, but it is dependent on a few factors. Tyranids should probably be lower now, as nothing they're doing is actually scary right now.

I haven't a slightest clue about Mechanicus.

the cult doesn't really work on it's own. It has so many gaps that it pretty much needs allies.

Tyranids are at best C tier without allies. You need BB allies to take PenTyrant.

AwayFromLife wrote:

S Tier
Eldar (S+), Necrons, Space Marines, Imperial Knights (S-)

A Tier
Dark Angels, Daemons, Space Wolves, Tau

B Tier
Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Skitarii, Tyranids

C Tier
Chaos Space Marines, Imperial Guard (C-), Orks, Cult Mechanicus

D Tier
Blood Angels (D+), Dark Eldar

This is how I see it now. A few explanations, where it is needed:
- Dark Angels are gimmicky, they are overall OK and have one strong combo, that's all.
- Meltaspam SoB = Dakkaflyrant nids.
- CSM is actually kinda-sorta OK, the army is Hard Mode though.
- IG is kept alive by the Paskisher, Vendettas and Whyverns.
- Blood Angels are a lot like CSM, but they are Nintendo Hard Mode.
- Dark Eldar is sh*t.

AwayFromLife wrote:
Out of curiosity, if a "Tier List" were to be made for the current 40k armies, where would you place them? Not counting Allies, as that just adds another level to it.

S-Tier
Eldar

A-Tier
Necrons, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Daemons, Imperial Knights

B-Tier
Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Skitarii, Tau, Tyranids

C-Tier
Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Cult Mechanicus

D-Tier
CSM, Blood Angels


Agree/Disagree?

I'm not sure we need 5 levels of distinction here. I don't see Orks or Blood Angles being at any notable disadvantage to say, Imperial Guard or Grey Knights, I don't think Dark Eldar are majorly better off than say, Blood Angels or CSM's, and I think Tau probably could reasonably be stated to have a leg up on all of them.

I'd to it more thusly

S-Tier
Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Knights (where allowed)

A-Tier
Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Skitarii, Space Wolves

B-Tier: Everything Else. Differentiations in here are starting to get increasingly subjective and variable.

Additionally, for a couple of these armies, they only rank as highly as they do a a result of a couple of builds. Tyranids that aren't spamming Flyrants can probably go in the B-tier, as can Daemons that aren't spsamming FMC & psychic shennanigans, or Space Wolves that aren't running TWC's.

 Vaktathi wrote:

AwayFromLife wrote:
Out of curiosity, if a "Tier List" were to be made for the current 40k armies, where would you place them? Not counting Allies, as that just adds another level to it.

S-Tier
Eldar

A-Tier
Necrons, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Daemons, Imperial Knights

B-Tier
Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Skitarii, Tau, Tyranids

C-Tier
Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Cult Mechanicus

D-Tier
CSM, Blood Angels


Agree/Disagree?

I'm not sure we need 5 levels of distinction here. I don't see Orks or Blood Angles being at any notable disadvantage to say, Imperial Guard or Grey Knights, I don't think Dark Eldar are majorly better off than say, Blood Angels or CSM's, and I think Tau probably could reasonably be stated to have a leg up on all of them.

I'd to it more thusly

S-Tier
Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Knights (where allowed)

A-Tier
Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Skitarii, Space Wolves

B-Tier: Everything Else. Differentiations in here are starting to get increasingly subjective and variable.

Additionally, for a couple of these armies, they only rank as highly as they do a a result of a couple of builds. Tyranids that aren't spamming Flyrants can probably go in the B-tier, as can Daemons that aren't spsamming FMC & psychic shennanigans, or Space Wolves that aren't running TWC's.

So would it be named something more like this?

Can win with a large number of builds
Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Knights (where allowed)

Have one strong build but that's kinda it
Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Skitarii, Space Wolves

Everything Else
Differentiations in here are starting to get increasingly subjective and variable.

I would move DA down to the second one, in that case. Ravenwing mass 2+ Jink Reroll is good, but the rest (Deathwing, Greenwing, flyers) are all kinda meh.

Requizen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

AwayFromLife wrote:
Out of curiosity, if a "Tier List" were to be made for the current 40k armies, where would you place them? Not counting Allies, as that just adds another level to it.

S-Tier
Eldar

A-Tier
Necrons, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Daemons, Imperial Knights

B-Tier
Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Skitarii, Tau, Tyranids

C-Tier
Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Cult Mechanicus

D-Tier
CSM, Blood Angels


Agree/Disagree?

I'm not sure we need 5 levels of distinction here. I don't see Orks or Blood Angles being at any notable disadvantage to say, Imperial Guard or Grey Knights, I don't think Dark Eldar are majorly better off than say, Blood Angels or CSM's, and I think Tau probably could reasonably be stated to have a leg up on all of them.

I'd to it more thusly

S-Tier
Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Knights (where allowed)

A-Tier
Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Skitarii, Space Wolves

B-Tier: Everything Else. Differentiations in here are starting to get increasingly subjective and variable.

Additionally, for a couple of these armies, they only rank as highly as they do a a result of a couple of builds. Tyranids that aren't spamming Flyrants can probably go in the B-tier, as can Daemons that aren't spsamming FMC & psychic shennanigans, or Space Wolves that aren't running TWC's.

So would it be named something more like this?

Can win with a large number of builds
Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Knights (where allowed)

Have one strong build but that's kinda it
Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Skitarii, Space Wolves

Everything Else
Differentiations in here are starting to get increasingly subjective and variable.

I would move DA down to the second one, in that case. Ravenwing mass 2+ Jink Reroll is good, but the rest (Deathwing, Greenwing, flyers) are all kinda meh.

Greenwing is still perfectly viable thanks to the fact that Grav hard counters most things in the game, and Interromancy is just plain bad@$$.

Basically, I feel it would be;

S Tier:
Eldar

A Tier:
The rest of the 7.5 codices bar Daemonkin

B Tier:
Daemonkin, current Tau, Daemons, Sisters + the rest of the 7th ed codices

Sit on the Shelf & Weep Tier:
Chaos Marines

Requizen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

AwayFromLife wrote:
Out of curiosity, if a "Tier List" were to be made for the current 40k armies, where would you place them? Not counting Allies, as that just adds another level to it.

S-Tier
Eldar

A-Tier
Necrons, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Daemons, Imperial Knights

B-Tier
Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Skitarii, Tau, Tyranids

C-Tier
Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Cult Mechanicus

D-Tier
CSM, Blood Angels


Agree/Disagree?

I'm not sure we need 5 levels of distinction here. I don't see Orks or Blood Angles being at any notable disadvantage to say, Imperial Guard or Grey Knights, I don't think Dark Eldar are majorly better off than say, Blood Angels or CSM's, and I think Tau probably could reasonably be stated to have a leg up on all of them.

I'd to it more thusly

S-Tier
Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Knights (where allowed)

A-Tier
Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Skitarii, Space Wolves

B-Tier: Everything Else. Differentiations in here are starting to get increasingly subjective and variable.

Additionally, for a couple of these armies, they only rank as highly as they do a a result of a couple of builds. Tyranids that aren't spamming Flyrants can probably go in the B-tier, as can Daemons that aren't spsamming FMC & psychic shennanigans, or Space Wolves that aren't running TWC's.

So would it be named something more like this?

Can win with a large number of builds
Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Knights (where allowed)

Have one strong build but that's kinda it
Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Skitarii, Space Wolves

Everything Else
Differentiations in here are starting to get increasingly subjective and variable.

I would move DA down to the second one, in that case. Ravenwing mass 2+ Jink Reroll is good, but the rest (Deathwing, Greenwing, flyers) are all kinda meh.

I think that's a good way to put it. Although you would then need another matrix comparing the strength of the best possible build. Like eldar have a ton of flexibility better than anyone else, but at maximum power are probably weaker than the absolute most brutal army SM or Crons can put down.

Cult Mechanicus should be higher. Them Kastelens bring pain!

I have just returned to 40k, but my first impression would be, you can't make a competitive tier list without Allies, because no major tournament circuit or top competitive events plays the game that way. Allies are a HUGE part of the game.

In terms of complete packages for competitive play the big three in my opinion are Eldar, Necrons and Marines. It's a great shame GW can't make the rest of the codex's match the vast array of good options these 3 books have. All are good standalone really and can make a plethora of useful ally combos (and indeed solo builds). That's what happens when you don't actually playtest the game properly I guess, you end up with books like Blood Angels in the same cycle as the aforementioned three. Hopefully Tau will join these 3 to bask in the sun, and not end up like blood angels players seething with the Black rage at their lot in life.

When you factor in Allies and Formations Tyranids, Ravenwing+Wolves, Draigo Knights, Deamons ,Tau and Imperial Knights are all very solid. They are all fairly mono build though, certainly not as varied as Marines, Necrons and Eldar can be. That said the tournament scene in this edition is ALLOT more varied than when I played competitively in 5th. Back then the game was completely dominated by Guard and Space wolves until the Grey Knights arrived to shake things up a little. Today you have to consider quite a variety of builds and armies when building your list it seems.

Unfortunately (just as the case with all other editions) some books are just terrible for competitive play.They are practically unplayable solo for tournaments. Blood Angels and Dark Eldar got shafted hard with their new codex's. Imperial Guard and CSM are struggling but at least they have codexs to come. Mechanicus seem quite meh, Sisters seem to be going the way of the squats.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Tyranids are at best C tier without allies. You need BB allies to take PenTyrant.

What BB allies do Nids have other than Nids? I don't think OP was talking about single detachment (though I could be wrong).

I would actually like to see a tier list of builds rather than codices.

Although that gets into a mess of "in what format?"

If I had to rank the codexes in tiers (standalone, not allies), I would probably rate them:
S rank:
Eldar, Necrons
A rank:
Space Marines, Dark Angels, Chaos Daemons, Tau Empire
B rank:
Khorne Daemonkin, Skitarii, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights
C rank:
Astra Militarum, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, Tyranids, Cult Mechanicus, Harlequins
D rank:
Chaos Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Militarum Tempestus

Keep in mind that I don't have a lot of experience with some of these, but I've faced all of them save Sisters, the AdMech ones, and Harlies at least once. I rated those based on what I've seen in battle reports, other tables at tournaments I attended, etc. Like others above said, allies throw this out the window, and some of the 'dexes (indeed, most of them if not all) have builds that allow them to punch above their weight. It'll be interesting to see where Tau end up when their new 'dex drops.

As a blood angels player I like people putting them bottom. My win rate this year is played 12 (pure ba) lost 2 both times it was to skyhammer.

Personally I'd put it this way

Eldar, necrons, space marines

Dark angels, knights, sw

Everyone else

Tge too three are clear and the next three are very close but the rest comes down to the player skill over how bad a codex is.

An average player can win vs an expert with the too three,, it gets closer with the second tier but after that skill defiantly takes over and it's down to list luck and skill

BA rightfully deserve to at the bottom. Its great that you've won many games, but its in spite of the codex.

It's an ego boost if nothing else. There was a lot of missed opportunities for fun and even powerful units other than Dc in the last codex. Such shame although nice to see our fellow angels of death doing well at last

 AtoMaki wrote:

AwayFromLife wrote:

S Tier
Eldar (S+), Necrons, Space Marines, Imperial Knights (S-)

A Tier
Dark Angels, Daemons, Space Wolves, Tau

B Tier
Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Skitarii, Tyranids

C Tier
Chaos Space Marines, Imperial Guard (C-), Orks, Cult Mechanicus

D Tier
Blood Angels (D+), Dark Eldar

This is how I see it now. A few explanations, where it is needed:
- Dark Angels are gimmicky, they are overall OK and have one strong combo, that's all.
- Meltaspam SoB = Dakkaflyrant nids.
- CSM is actually kinda-sorta OK, the army is Hard Mode though.
- IG is kept alive by the Paskisher, Vendettas and Whyverns.
- Blood Angels are a lot like CSM, but they are Nintendo Hard Mode.
- Dark Eldar is sh*t.

This seems about right.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Tyranids are at best C tier without allies. You need BB allies to take PenTyrant.

What BB allies do Nids have other than Nids? I don't think OP was talking about single detachment (though I could be wrong).

They don't have any other BB allies - my point was that to make the most competitive lists, you have to utilize the allies rules.

Of course, if you're not limiting an army to a single detachment, then Nids move up the tier list.

EDIT: I'd be prepared to move Tau up a tier, just wait and see what tournament results bring us.

After this update, you could level up Tau to A tier.

I'd argue Daemons and Dark Eldar both moving to B tier.

 Vector Strike wrote:
After this update, you could level up Tau to A tier.

They might go up to S rank. The biggest issue for Tau was the ability to handle deathstars and super heavies. The new formations and Taucurion (idc what its called, Taucurion sounds more fun) seem to give the tools to help power through deathstars and better handle Super Heavys/GCs. Tau are also getting more mobility potential with the run and shoot. Durability remains roughly the same but the alpha strike potential is higher and they can pull off some some crazy turn 2 beta (deep) strikes with lots of suits (even deep strike relentless broadsides somehow). Tau will have a lot more tactical flexibility which is really powerful for top tier play.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'd argue Daemons and Dark Eldar both moving to B tier.

Agreed. No pre-Necron codex belongs in the same tier as any of the Necron and on codices.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
After this update, you could level up Tau to A tier.

They might go up to S rank. The biggest issue for Tau was the ability to handle deathstars and super heavies. The new formations and Taucurion (idc what its called, Taucurion sounds more fun) seem to give the tools to help power through deathstars and better handle Super Heavys/GCs. Tau are also getting more mobility potential with the run and shoot. Durability remains roughly the same but the alpha strike potential is higher and they can pull off some some crazy turn 2 beta (deep) strikes with lots of suits (even deep strike relentless broadsides somehow). Tau will have a lot more tactical flexibility which is really powerful for top tier play.

For that it needs play time and some tourneys. Just on reading does not make them S tier

For Single-Source Armies...

Top Teir:

Eldar - Many powerful builds, regardless of list comp. Units are high powered, and it's easy to avoid retaliation. Eldar used to be mobile, short ranged, and fragile. If they failed in the first volley, they'd be severely punished. Now, they have tons of mobility, and such range that they can attack and remain outside of meaningful retaliation. Their basic list defeats anything without sufficient mobility to catch them, or that has incredible durability to withstand tremendous punishment without being able to retaliate. Widespread access to Jink saves, and the ability to move out of retaliation range / LOS after shooting. Widespread access to weapons that are effective, regardless of opposing Toughness / AV. [Pseudo-Rending, D-Spam]

Necrons - Insanely tough when using Decurion. Units are high powered, and intelligent combinations of fire support / CC units work well together. Some mobility, but all unbelievably difficult to remove from the table. The common list defeats anything without the ability to consistently output HUGE numbers of attacks, or is able to bypass RP. Common access to Jink saves, widespread access to Reanimation Protocols. Widespread access to weapons that are effective, regardless of opposing Toughness / AV. [Gauss, Wraith-Rending]

Space Marines / Dark Angels - When built mobile and tough, especially Bikes / Podded Units. Pretty easy to build armies entirely of models with "upgraded" weapons. IE: 3 man Bikes with 2x Special Weapons and a Sarge w/ Combi. 5x Special Command Squads. Sternguard. Devastators, Dev Cents. Dreadnoughts are amazing right now. Talons are fantastic value. My experience is that the Gladius formations are too limiting, and that you can build more powerful lists using CAD. Even with free transports, you're spending stupid amounts of points on mediocre units, just to get free, mediocre transports. Capable of incredible Alpha-strike. Common access to Jink saves, common access to improved cover saves, common access to great Invul saves. Widespread access to weapons that are effective, regardless of opposing Toughness / AV. [You can build armies WITHOUT BOLT GUNS. Plasma, Melta, and Grav... on every model.] Less Bat-gak crazy than Eldar and Necrons... but should have a winning record against any army below this point, all things being equal.

Knights - Top Teir VS Mono-build Lists - Built in mobility, toughness. Basic list defeats anything without huge amounts of S 6+ weaponry on mobile platforms, or huge amounts of S 7+ on less mobile platforms. Effectively ignores most weapons, vastly depleting the value of non-AT weapons. At 1500 points, you can spread 4 / 5 knights across the board and simply move forward, blasting anything you see and then charge for D-Sword / Stomps. Can be hard countered with S 8+ / Armourbane close combat spam, but that's pretty rare. Widespread access to Invulnerable saves. Widespread access to weapons that are effective, regardless of opposing Toughness / AV. [Battlecannon Spam, + Skyfire Autocannon + D-Sword + Stomps]


Upper Middle Teir

Any codex capable of a strong mono-build. Most non-top teir lists are incapable of fielding entire armies of units that are effective regardless of T / AV. Most armies aren't able to "nearly" guarantee a save for every unit with Jink, RP, or Invuls. No GLARING weaknesses, other than not being Top-Teir.

Chaos Marines - Although suffering from not being Vanilla, are mid-teir thanks to monobuild Helldrake AP 3 "template spam", coupled with Oblits, Chosen, Spawn and a Fast Moving choppy HQ. This style of list can deny cover / MEQ saves, though still suffers from RP and Invuls. It also suffers against Mono-Knights, as it has trouble overcoming the Knights AV / Invul strength. Lowest mobility of MEQ, but has tools to deal with most opposing armies.

Orks - Can build Klaw-Bike spam. Fast, relatively tough, Jinking, relatively cheap models, with enough High Strength claws to land hits. Requires crazy FOC spam, but can be done with multiple detachments.

Nids - Aren't inherently bad, especially in Mono-build environment. Dakka Flyrants are very powerful, and MC's with little guy support [cover saves, at least] are powerful unless you face massed Ignores Cover.

Tau - I haven't faced Tau in a long time, but I'd put them here. They have lots of tools to deal with high-end armies, while ideally remaining mobile. Best Tau players I know play mobile, not static gunline.

GK - maybe? I haven't faced the current codex. They might be lower.

SW - Probably Spacewolves. TWC are nasty, and they have pretty good support units for them.


Lower Middle Teir

Any codex capable of a strong mono-build, but with common hard counters. Codices with glaring weakness, such as low mobility, short range, poor damage output, excessive frailty.

Guard - Can win, but fast armies can avoid their LOS, then pick them apart piecemeal.

SOB - Desperately short ranged, without particular mobility or toughness.

Blood Angels - Have no Hellturkey, No Oblits, no Daemon Princes... and their "Chapter Tactic" is laughable. They need to get to CC, but use jump packs, not bikes. They suffer the greatest from being "Not Vanilla" of the various MEQ. Poor Damage output.

DE - Probably Dark Eldar. Haven't played them in ages. They suffer from being Not-Eldar, but forced to play old-elder style. Insane frailty, short range... they've got it tough, from what I understand.

Lowest Teir

Codices clearly intended to be "add-ons" to another codex.

Inquisition - Really don't have the tools to play a complete army.

Militarum Tempestus - The gutted, tortured remains of the Astra Militarum codex. Take everything remotely good out of the Mid-Low AM codex, and you have the MT codex.

Harlequins [?] - I've never played, but they don't seem to have the tools to make a complete army.

Legion of the Damned - Would auto-lose, with everything forced into reserve.

Mechanicum and Skitarii need to be in the Second best tier, they are insanely strong and powerful with units that are very flexible when it comes to targets they can deal with.

S- Necrons
A- Also Necrons
B- ... Crons
C- Yes, you guessed it, Necrons
D- Do I need to?
F- Whatever those other models GW and FW make.