Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Since Chaos Worlds are fairly tainted and Nids absorb all the life on the planet, how do they deal with Chaos Worlds they takeover?

Have they ever taken over a fully involved demon world?

Or are you talking about a regular world that has a large amount of chaos taint.

Either? I don't think they have taken over a full Demon world.

Lore has at least one instance of tyranids duking it out with a major daemonic army: Fall of Shadowbrink. It did not end well for the Chaos daemons.

kaszak wrote:
Lore has at least one instance of tyranids duking it out with a major daemonic army: Fall of Shadowbrink. It did not end well for the Chaos daemons.

That doesn't really apply here, though, as that was an invading army, not a tainted world or a Daemon World. Daemon Worlds would likely lack sufficient biomass to warrant an invasion by Tyranids, though, so I doubt that such a battle would ever occur.

 dusara217 wrote:
That doesn't really apply here, though, as that was an invading army, not a tainted world or a Daemon World. Daemon Worlds would likely lack sufficient biomass to warrant an invasion by Tyranids, though, so I doubt that such a battle would ever occur.

Aren't daemons and Chaos taint basically the same thing? Both are a manifestation of the same force, and where one appears, the other soon follows. Do i understand this correctly?

Physical stuff tainted by Chaos, like Chaos marines or cultists probably make no difference for the nids, biomass as usual.

kaszak wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
That doesn't really apply here, though, as that was an invading army, not a tainted world or a Daemon World. Daemon Worlds would likely lack sufficient biomass to warrant an invasion by Tyranids, though, so I doubt that such a battle would ever occur.

Aren't daemons and Chaos taint basically the same thing? Both are a manifestation of the same force, and where one appears, the other soon follows. Do i understand this correctly?

Physical stuff tainted by Chaos, like Chaos marines or cultists probably make no difference for the nids, biomass as usual.

Simple contact with Daemons is sufficient to spread Taint (most of the time), but it still takes time for it set in, and a world that has had its very bedrock tainted would likely be much more difficult to disrupt with Shadow of the Warp than an Imperial planet that's been Warded and protected by an army of elite Imperial battlepsykers for decades/centuries.

Nids mostly ignore demon worlds, not enough biomass for them. They might go for a world that's being tainted by chaos, but for the most part they avoid anything to do with demon worlds

They eat everything and are unaffected by Nurgle's diseases, as they can simply evolve immunity to them after the first few generations.
The Nids would probably go for more tastier snacks, but I doubt they would pass up a deamon world if it was in their path.

Tyranids can't eat Daemon warp stuff, but they don't have any problem snacking on Chaos followers.

Nurgle worlds are profusions of life with all the diseased trees, algae-choked seas and so on and so forth. A nurgle daemon world would be a banquet for the Tyranids because making biomass is what Nurgle does. Sure, that biomass is generally inimical to all other biomass, but it also tends to be a little limited when it comes to ground-to-space defence, meaning that the 'nids can freely loiter while they develop immunities to all the virii and bacteria and parasites on the planet in question.

The 6th Ed codex I'm pretty sure has instances of Nids evolving immunity to Nurgle diseases. The Grey Knights codex definitely has an instance of an enormous huge battle where the Nids invade a planet guarded by a handful of Grey Knights who happen to be guarding a massive warp portal that lets in a flood of Daemons including 4 Greater Daemons that form a group of some kind with a fancy name. They definitely evolve past Nurgle's diseases, the Shadow massively disrupts the Daemons and then they actually win by a large margin

kaszak wrote:
Lore has at least one instance of tyranids duking it out with a major daemonic army: Fall of Shadowbrink. It did not end well for the Chaos daemons.

That was a good read, and put things off table into perspective. How the GK deployed only 2 dreadknights, and that is a lot for them. I often forget how rare things like dreadnoughts, and other units are supposed to be, when you can see them in troves on the tabletop.

As far as Tyranids evolving past Nurgle's diseases, his diseases were designed for standard life. If he really wanted to, it would be a nonissue to simply design a semi-sentient contagion that evolves as fast as (if not faster than) Tyranids do. This is a God of diseases, it's not like anything disease-related is actually beyond his grasp.

 dusara217 wrote:
As far as Tyranids evolving past Nurgle's diseases, his diseases were designed for standard life. If he really wanted to, it would be a nonissue to simply design a semi-sentient contagion that evolves as fast as (if not faster than) Tyranids do. This is a God of diseases, it's not like anything disease-related is actually beyond his grasp.

Not really. Diseases are rather quite limited to a variety of enzymes, chemicals and cells that target specific areas of the body. The Nids can simply evolve their targetted cells to be immune to the diseases and/or not existant, improve their immume system to immediately tackle any foreign object, etc. Its really the simplest thing in the Nid's arsenal to develop. Immunity to pulse rifles or enhanced musculature is much harder for example.

 Tyran wrote:
Tyranids can't eat Daemon warp stuff, but they don't have any problem snacking on Chaos followers.

They can, actually. The resulting effect is the Shadow in the Warp.

Not really. Diseases are rather quite limited to a variety of enzymes, chemicals and cells that target specific areas of the body. The Nids can simply evolve their targetted cells to be immune to the diseases and/or not existant, improve their immume system to immediately tackle any foreign object, etc. Its really the simplest thing in the Nid's arsenal to develop. Immunity to pulse rifles or enhanced musculature is much harder for example.

Not really. Not all nurgle's diseases are 'merely' biochemical. Nurgle's rot, for example, is infectious warp taint that steadily transforms the sufferer into a plaguebearer.

There is an example in the background (in Storm Of Iron) of a tyranid hive ship being infected with and succumbing to the Obliterator Virus (which is essentially a combination of nanotechnology and daemon) - the resulting monstrosity being used as a titan barge by the Iron Warriors.

The Shadow In The Warp does indeed mess with daemonic presence, but note that Shadowbrink was a world with a daemonic incursion ongoing, not a full '**** Physics We're In The Warp' daemon world - even the hive mind has its limits.

Yeh, for the shadowbrink example, the daemons were on the back foot, they had no connection to the warp and the entire strand of nids faced them with available reinforcements, the daemons had alot, but were ultimately outnumbered, plus with the nids evolving through the hive mind it was hard. if it were a full daemon world in the eye where the daemons could still be in contact with the gods i think it wouldve been very different.

Some quotes from the 6th Ed Tyranid Codex on Shadowbrink.

While it recognised that a psychic disturbance of some magnitude was occurring on the planet’s northern land mass, the gestalt consciousness of the Tyranid swarm detected neither fresh biomass nor a direct challenge from this strange phenomena, and deemed it irrelevant.

The Tyranids’ efforts were redoubled, and they raced to devour Shadowbrink’s biomass before it could be spoiled.

The Hive Mind was leeching their energies, severing the Daemons from the sustaining powers of the Empyrean. No real blood flowed for Khorne, just worthless alien ichor. As each rancid disease was unleashed by the children of Nurgle, so the next brood of Tyranids had grown resistant to it. Without the fear or devotion of true mortals to sustain them, the Daemons were foundering fast.

So to me, it sounds as if Tyranids can't absorb the stuff of Chaos or warp tainted flora, fauna and the like. In the case of Shadowbrink, the Hive Mind reaped as much Biomass from the planet before it become too embroiled in warp taint.

If the world was perhaps surrounded by a warp storm, it might have been a different story, as there possibly would have been a more permanent connection to the warp and harder for the Shadow to sever.

I daresay that when it comes to diseases, it very much depends on just how much attention the Dark Gods are paying. Remember, they managed to make a 'Primarch-Killer' disease to bring Horus low. If they can make something that cannot be purged from a Primarch's system, I don't doubt that they could do the same to a Hive Fleet.

At the same time however, the Gods are capricious.A small coven of local Nurgle sorcerors on a world about to be overrun by the 'nids wouldn't warrant such an effort by his Great Poxiness. If Typhus and an Unclean One are on a world with a few thousand marines and millions of nurgle worshippers on a fetid swamp planet though? He might pay a bit more attention and devise something so self-mutating/replicating that even the 'Nids can't out-evolve it.

 Ketara wrote:
I daresay that when it comes to diseases, it very much depends on just how much attention the Dark Gods are paying. Remember, they managed to make a 'Primarch-Killer' disease to bring Horus low. If they can make something that cannot be purged from a Primarch's system, I don't doubt that they could do the same to a Hive Fleet.

At the same time however, the Gods are capricious.A small coven of local Nurgle sorcerors on a world about to be overrun by the 'nids wouldn't warrant such an effort by his Great Poxiness. If Typhus and an Unclean One are on a world with a few thousand marines and millions of nurgle worshippers on a fetid swamp planet though? He might pay a bit more attention and devise something so self-mutating/replicating that even the 'Nids can't out-evolve it.

I'm sorry, what? Anathame poisoned Horus, not the Dark Gods. Anathame is a weapon that creates a killing poison to whoever's name is whispered to it. Nurgle only imbued the wielder, Eugen Temba, with the power to fight Horus and be able to land a blow on him. The weapon itself came from the Interex museum.

locarno24 wrote:

There is an example in the background (in Storm Of Iron) of a tyranid hive ship being infected with and succumbing to the Obliterator Virus (which is essentially a combination of nanotechnology and daemon) - the resulting monstrosity being used as a titan barge by the Iron Warriors.

That Hive Ship was dragged to the warp, cut from the Hive Mind and tortured into submission. It's not something viable in the middle of a fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

So to me, it sounds as if Tyranids can't absorb the stuff of Chaos or warp tainted flora, fauna and the like. In the case of Shadowbrink, the Hive Mind reaped as much Biomass from the planet before it become too embroiled in warp taint.

They don't seem to have a problem eating Chaos followers. Although I guess the warp taint in a mortal is far lesser than the taint of a daemonic incursion

locarno24 wrote:

Not really. Diseases are rather quite limited to a variety of enzymes, chemicals and cells that target specific areas of the body. The Nids can simply evolve their targetted cells to be immune to the diseases and/or not existant, improve their immume system to immediately tackle any foreign object, etc. Its really the simplest thing in the Nid's arsenal to develop. Immunity to pulse rifles or enhanced musculature is much harder for example.

Not really. Not all nurgle's diseases are 'merely' biochemical. Nurgle's rot, for example, is infectious warp taint that steadily transforms the sufferer into a plaguebearer.

There is an example in the background (in Storm Of Iron) of a tyranid hive ship being infected with and succumbing to the Obliterator Virus (which is essentially a combination of nanotechnology and daemon) - the resulting monstrosity being used as a titan barge by the Iron Warriors.

The Shadow In The Warp does indeed mess with daemonic presence, but note that Shadowbrink was a world with a daemonic incursion ongoing, not a full '**** Physics We're In The Warp' daemon world - even the hive mind has its limits.

Well the Nids don't ever enter the warp and the Shadow severely disrupts the Warp's effects in Real Space, plus, lacking the souls to be turned into Daemons, I doubt the likes of the Rot would have a metaphysical effect on the Nids, but rather, a purely biologically one which they can evolve past. If it was as simple for Nurgle to develop a supervirus that insta-kills Nids, I reckon he would have done so already.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I daresay that when it comes to diseases, it very much depends on just how much attention the Dark Gods are paying. Remember, they managed to make a 'Primarch-Killer' disease to bring Horus low. If they can make something that cannot be purged from a Primarch's system, I don't doubt that they could do the same to a Hive Fleet.

At the same time however, the Gods are capricious.A small coven of local Nurgle sorcerors on a world about to be overrun by the 'nids wouldn't warrant such an effort by his Great Poxiness. If Typhus and an Unclean One are on a world with a few thousand marines and millions of nurgle worshippers on a fetid swamp planet though? He might pay a bit more attention and devise something so self-mutating/replicating that even the 'Nids can't out-evolve it.

I'm sorry, what? Anathame poisoned Horus, not the Dark Gods. Anathame is a weapon that creates a killing poison to whoever's name is whispered to it. Nurgle only imbued the wielder, Eugen Temba, with the power to fight Horus and be able to land a blow on him. The weapon itself came from the Interex museum.

And where do you think the anathame's powers came from? When the 40K universe came into existence, the weapon wasn't automatically just there gifted with the powers it has independent of anything else. It was created and impregnated with the powers of the warp by the Kinebrach. It was later confiscated by the Interex, but it wasn't some obscure piece of archaeotech. It was a weapon of the Chaos Gods, and derived it's powers from them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:


Well the Nids don't ever enter the warp and the Shadow severely disrupts the Warp's effects in Real Space, plus, lacking the souls to be turned into Daemons, I doubt the likes of the Rot would have a metaphysical effect on the Nids, but rather, a purely biologically one which they can evolve past. If it was as simple for Nurgle to develop a supervirus that insta-kills Nids, I reckon he would have done so already.

I suspect that the greater the Tyranid presence and the weaker the Chaos one, the more metaphysical aspects of any disease would be ruled out. So for example, on a daemon world, I daresay any diseases would get a metaphysical boost and be able to infect/spread/kill much easier. The greater the Shadow in the Warp though, the more inhibited any such metaphysical aspects would be become, and the more reliant on purely biological ones.

 Ketara wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I daresay that when it comes to diseases, it very much depends on just how much attention the Dark Gods are paying. Remember, they managed to make a 'Primarch-Killer' disease to bring Horus low. If they can make something that cannot be purged from a Primarch's system, I don't doubt that they could do the same to a Hive Fleet.

At the same time however, the Gods are capricious.A small coven of local Nurgle sorcerors on a world about to be overrun by the 'nids wouldn't warrant such an effort by his Great Poxiness. If Typhus and an Unclean One are on a world with a few thousand marines and millions of nurgle worshippers on a fetid swamp planet though? He might pay a bit more attention and devise something so self-mutating/replicating that even the 'Nids can't out-evolve it.

I'm sorry, what? Anathame poisoned Horus, not the Dark Gods. Anathame is a weapon that creates a killing poison to whoever's name is whispered to it. Nurgle only imbued the wielder, Eugen Temba, with the power to fight Horus and be able to land a blow on him. The weapon itself came from the Interex museum.

And where do you think the anathame's powers came from? When the 40K universe came into existence, the weapon wasn't automatically just there gifted with the powers it has independent of anything else. It was created and impregnated with the powers of the warp by the Kinebrach. It was later confiscated by the Interex, but it wasn't some obscure piece of archaeotech. It was a weapon of the Chaos Gods, and derived it's powers from them.

Wow, that is never touched on in the book. I am sorry. You'd think that such a huge thing would be touched on, even briefly.

 jreilly89 wrote:


Wow, that is never touched on in the book. I am sorry. You'd think that such a huge thing would be touched on, even briefly.

Uh, actually it is in Horus Rising (the first book in the series, one before Horus is wounded). The theft of the anathame by is central to the plot of both the book and the entire Heresy, directly causing the war with the Interex and leading to the events on Davin.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Wow, that is never touched on in the book. I am sorry. You'd think that such a huge thing would be touched on, even briefly.

Uh, actually it is in Horus Rising (the first book in the series, one before Horus is wounded). The theft of the anathame by

Spoiler:

Erebus

is central to the plot of both the book and the entire Heresy, directly causing the war with the Interex and leading to the events on Davin.

Yes, but they touch on the fact that it was created for and influenced by Nurgle. It's only mentioned that it was a weapon created by the Kinebrach, who again are barely touched on.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Yes, but they touch on the fact that it was created for and influenced by Nurgle. It's only mentioned that it was a weapon created by the Kinebrach, who again are barely touched on.

Nurgle isn't mentioned, but the book does talk extensively about it having to do with Chaos. And of course it's not established that the anathame has anything specifically to do with Nurgle, just with Chaos. Otherwise that would imply the Heresy was Nurgle's doing.

The Kinebrach are probably kept vague on purpose as just another Chaos worshipping civilization (like the Laer, Davinites, and native Cadians). The book was more about the Interax and the Imperium's general ignorance of Chaos anyway.

Edit: Hm, guess I wasn't paying attention, apparently the anathame is specifically tied to Nurgle. The Kinebrach are also mentioned as a part of the Interex. One has to wonder how the Interex were able to integrate the Chaos worshipping Kinebrach into their society without being corrupted themselves.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Yes, but they touch on the fact that it was created for and influenced by Nurgle. It's only mentioned that it was a weapon created by the Kinebrach, who again are barely touched on.

Nurgle isn't mentioned, but the book does talk extensively about it having to do with Chaos. And of course it's not established that the anathame has anything specifically to do with Nurgle, just with Chaos. Otherwise that would imply the Heresy was Nurgle's doing.

The Kinebrach are probably kept vague on purpose as just another Chaos worshipping civilization (like the Laer and native Cadians). The book was more about the Interax and Imerpium's general ignorance of Chaos anyway.

Agreed, I just think a little more explanation would have helped. I visualised the Kinebrach as developing extremely advanced technical weapons rather than having ties to Chaos. Hence why I thought the Anathame (also, kind of a dumb name, I would have gone with Anathema) worked on a subatomic level as opposed to dark spooky magic.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Agreed, I just think a little more explanation would have helped. I visualised the Kinebrach as developing extremely advanced technical weapons rather than having ties to Chaos. Hence why I thought the Anathame (also, kind of a dumb name, I would have gone with Anathema) worked on a subatomic level as opposed to dark spooky magic.

Yea, it's been a while since I read the book but reading up on the fluff on the wikia and lexicanum is leaving me more confused than before. The Kinebrach aren't mentioned as Chaos worshipping, just having the anathame. Interesting... time for a reread!

And maybe part of the reason why the fluff is so vague is because False Gods has a different author, so the story took a different turn. The Interex are also barely mentioned again, whereas the first book seemed to be building up to something major.