Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
A Russian airliner has crashed in central Sinai with more than 200 people on board, the office of Egypt's prime minister has confirmed.
The Airbus A-321 had just left the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, bound for the Russian city of St Petersburg.
Wreckage was found in the Hasana area and bodies removed, along with the plane's "black box". An official described a "tragic scene".
Flight KGL9268 disappeared when travelling at 9,500m (31,000ft).
Egyptian officials said all the passengers were Russian.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered an official investigation into the crash, and for rescue teams to be sent to the crash site.
A commission headed by Transport Minister Maksim Sokolov is to leave for Egypt on Saturday afternoon.
A criminal case has also been opened against the airline, Kogalymavia, for "violation of rules of flight and preparation for them", Russia's Ria news agency reported.
The airline, based in western Siberia, operates under the name Metrojet.
Russian authorities say it was carrying 217 passengers, 17 of them children aged between 2 and 17, and seven crew. Most were tourists.
A centre to help relatives of the passengers has been set up at Pulkovo airport, Tass news agency quoted St Petersburg city officials as saying.
Initially there were conflicting reports about the fate of the plane, some suggesting it had disappeared over Cyprus.
But the office of Egyptian Prime Minister Sharif Ismail confirmed in a statement that a "Russian civilian plane... crashed in the central Sinai".
It added that Mr Ismail had formed a crisis committee to deal with the crash.
Media reports say at least 50 ambulances have been sent to the scene.
Access to the area is strictly controlled by the military and the terrain is difficult, correspondents say.
One official told Reuters news agency that at least 100 bodies had been found.
"I now see a tragic scene," the official said. "A lot of dead on the ground and many died whilst strapped to their seats."
The plane split in two, with one part burning up and the other crashing into a rock, he added.
The Russian aviation authority Rosaviatsiya said in a statement that flight KGL9268 left Sharm el-Sheikh at 06:51 Moscow time (03:51 GMT) and had been due into St Petersburg's Pulkovo airport at 12:10.
The authority added that the aircraft failed to make scheduled contact with Cyprus air traffic control 23 minutes after take-off and disappeared from the radar.
Egypt's civilian aviation ministry said the plane had been at an altitude of 9,500m (31,000ft) when it disappeared.
Live flight tracking service Flight Radar 24's Mikail Robertson confirmed the altitude.
He told the BBC that the plane started to drop very fast, losing 1,500m in one minute before coverage was lost.
Aviation official Ayman al-Mukadem said the pilot had reported technical difficulties before the plane went missing, the Associated Press reported.
The BBC's Orla Guerin in Cairo says it is likely there will be speculation about militant involvement in the incident - Sinai has an active militant network, with local Jihadis who have allied themselves to so-called Islamic State.
But the aircraft's altitude suggests that it could not have been struck from the ground, she adds.
Local weather observations in the vicinity of the rescue scene suggest relatively benign conditions.
I seem to remember several other flights over the years crashing into the Sinai...
Just like the Bermuda Triangle!
This is why I don't like traveling on airplanes. I know accidents are uncommon (super uncommon) but if I'm gonna die, I'd rather it not be in a metal can spiraling out of the sky.
IMHO this is possibly infiltrated airport staff causing sabotage.
ISIS wants to hit at Russia bad. Hitting a Russia airliner on the ground is a good target, the plane would take off then have problems. There was no reports of a missile launch and the aircraft had moved to operating altitude which would clear it over most hand held rockets. Also the crew were asking for an emergency landing, rather than reporting an explosion.
It could be coincidental failure, which ISIS has claimed responsibility for opportunistically, or it could be sabotage.
I dont think it is far fetched for ISIS to infiltrate technical staff at an Egyptian airport.
This is why I don't like traveling on airplanes. I know accidents are uncommon (super uncommon) but if I'm gonna die, I'd rather it not be in a metal can spiraling out of the sky.
Avoid cars then, and buses. And avoid crossing the road. Avoid working with agricultural machinery or in the forestry industry, or with a steel press.
Avoid all the normal accidents then die slowly and painfully from some illness or other.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/31 15:09:02
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Avoid cars then, and buses. And avoid crossing the road. Avoid working with agricultural machinery or in the forestry industry, or with a steel press.
Avoid all the normal accidents then die slowly and painfully from some illness or other.
For me these things are different, because at least in these situations I have a greater sense of personal control (I try to avoid an accident, check both ways before crossing, observe safety practices in the work place). If a plane starts falling out of the sky, there isn't much I can do but sit there and wait for the dreaded splat @_@ It's the wait man. I mean, how long does it take a plane to go from 10,000 feet to smudge in the dirt? At least long enough for me to be like "oh gak the plane is going down... god damn it..." Though I suppose that's also enough time to come up with some horribly inappropriate movie references;
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/31 15:47:07
Yep, ISIS jagoffs are now taking credit for it. Do you guys think they actually have the hardware to take something out flying at 30,000 feet? Considering their resources . . . Just because it isn't in official intelligence reports doesn't mean it wasn't recently acquired. Officials say it wasn't ISIS, for whatever that's worth.
ISIS has claimed responsibility for destroying a Russian passenger jet in response to Vladimir Putin's decision to bomb Jihadi targets in Syria, although both Moscow and Egypt have denied any possible terrorism link.
The aircraft, which had 200 adult passengers, 17 children and seven crew crashed less than 25 minutes after it took off from the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh.
The Irish-owned aircraft was leased by a Russian airline who were carrying package holiday passengers back to St Peterburg in northern Russia.
It crashed in the Hassana area, south of Arish. Security forces discovered the crash wreckage in a remote mountainous area in a region containing many ISIS-affiliated terrorists.
Egyptian sources are claiming that wreckage has been spread over a three-mile area while an ISIS-affiliate has tried to claim responsibility for the disaster.
According to the statement: 'The soldiers of the caliphate succeeded in bringing down a Russian plane in Sinai.'
Russian transport minister Maksim Sokolov dismissed the ISIS claims. He said: 'This information cannot be considered accurate. We are in close contact with our Egyptian colleagues and aviation authorities in the country. At present, they have no information that would confirm such insinuations.'
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/31 16:16:03
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
If they did do it I would bet it was hijacking or sabotage and not shooting it down.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
If it was them, Well Russia was pounding them before, and hard but they are going to be very angry.
expect more bombing. lots more.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Yep, ISIS jagoffs are now taking credit for it. Do you guys think they actually have the hardware to take something out flying at 30,000 feet?
They could most assuredly go with the low tech option and take a plane down. Thats happened before in the world.
Now do I think they have the gear to shoot a missile at a passenger liner when its cruising at 31000 feet? Nah. Sabatoge beforehand, during the flight, or overpowering the cockpit.....maybe. I'm not going to raise my voice in protest when the Russian military takes their revenge. I take a really dim view of destroying planes full of civilian passengers...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Freakazoitt wrote: It seems that in this accident there are more victims, than was in previous Russia/USSR aircraft crushes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A lot of insulting posts from ukrainian trolls over Ru internet.
Did you expect any less? I'm a gentleman, and an American so I'm not enough of a savage to poke fun at 200+ smoking corpses so I'm not going to say anything rude or insensitive about that whole thing.
Terroristic acts are tragic and should not occur.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/31 18:45:11
Before we start jumping the gun and blaming Islamic State, I think we should all remember that Russian aviation safety standards are shall we say, far less than exemplary...
Odds are the crash is due to poor/improper maintenance of the plane rather than ISIS thugs.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I believe this was a plane rented from an Irish plane company. The plane was not actually owned by the Russian airline.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Experiment 626 wrote: Before we start jumping the gun and blaming Islamic State, I think we should all remember that Russian aviation safety standards are shall we say, far less than exemplary...
Odds are the crash is due to poor/improper maintenance of the plane rather than ISIS thugs.
No one is blaming Islamic State. Islamic State is claiming responsibility.
Whether this is true or an opportunist lie on the back of a random accident remains to be seen.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
LethalShade wrote: They haven't claimed responsibility for previous accidents.
This is the first major accident from a nation bombing them.
It isn't indicative anyway.
It is worth looking into by security professionals. The KGB ought to ask themselves the following questions on top of what else they are looking into.
1. Can an Islamic State extremist get a job in a technical department of Sharm el-Sheik airport?
2. Can an Islamic extremist working as a technician sabotage the aircraft during the pre-flight safety checkover that occurred this morning?
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
LethalShade wrote: They haven't claimed responsibility for previous accidents.
This is the first major accident from a nation bombing them.
It isn't indicative anyway.
It is worth looking into by security professionals. The KGB ought to ask themselves the following questions on top of what else they are looking into.
1. Can an Islamic State extremist get a job in a technical department of Sharm el-Sheik airport?
2. Can an Islamic extremist working as a technician sabotage the aircraft during the pre-flight safety checkover that occurred this morning?
may be a sleeper agent?
one that has no ties to them directly, nothing that comes up the security checks and sympathies but they can get the job as theres no reason for them not to. or post job radicalization?
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Of course ISIS (or some other terrorist group) is going to claim responsibility. They get the effect they want, and if it turns out to be an ordinary mechanical failure then nobody will care anymore by the time the accident report is finally released. Merely claiming responsibility doesn't mean that they actually did it.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Experiment 626 wrote: Before we start jumping the gun and blaming Islamic State, I think we should all remember that Russian aviation safety standards are shall we say, far less than exemplary...
Odds are the crash is due to poor/improper maintenance of the plane rather than ISIS thugs.
No one is blaming Islamic State. Islamic State is claiming responsibility.
Whether this is true or an opportunist lie on the back of a random accident remains to be seen.
ISIS doesn't have a track record of claiming attacks that aren't "theirs", I'll just point it out.
Experiment 626 wrote: Before we start jumping the gun and blaming Islamic State, I think we should all remember that Russian aviation safety standards are shall we say, far less than exemplary...
Odds are the crash is due to poor/improper maintenance of the plane rather than ISIS thugs.
No one is blaming Islamic State. Islamic State is claiming responsibility.
Whether this is true or an opportunist lie on the back of a random accident remains to be seen.
ISIS doesn't have a track record of claiming attacks that aren't "theirs", I'll just point it out.
Do they have a track record of sabotaging civilian aircraft?
Experiment 626 wrote: Before we start jumping the gun and blaming Islamic State, I think we should all remember that Russian aviation safety standards are shall we say, far less than exemplary...
Odds are the crash is due to poor/improper maintenance of the plane rather than ISIS thugs.
No one is blaming Islamic State. Islamic State is claiming responsibility.
Whether this is true or an opportunist lie on the back of a random accident remains to be seen.
ISIS doesn't have a track record of claiming attacks that aren't "theirs", I'll just point it out.
And hardly unwilling to plug the depths of evil, burning alive, drowning etc.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Experiment 626 wrote: Before we start jumping the gun and blaming Islamic State, I think we should all remember that Russian aviation safety standards are shall we say, far less than exemplary...
Odds are the crash is due to poor/improper maintenance of the plane rather than ISIS thugs.
No one is blaming Islamic State. Islamic State is claiming responsibility.
Whether this is true or an opportunist lie on the back of a random accident remains to be seen.
ISIS doesn't have a track record of claiming attacks that aren't "theirs", I'll just point it out.
Do they have a track record of sabotaging civilian aircraft?
We can take that both ways.
1. They are taking very heavy casualties from Russian bombing. A number of ISIS fighters wanted to go home because when on jihad they couldn't get wifi. Yes those are just isolated stories about part time Jihadists, but it indicates not everyone is 100% behind the cause. Some people might get cold feet when they realise that the intensity of the Russian aerial campaign means that they have a very good chance of being blown to bits at any time.
ISIS leaders might need a propaganda victory, and thus raced to make one up after news broke that a Russian airliner had a random accident. Even if the west doesn't believe the stories if the fighters do and are emboldened to stay and fight it serves their purpose.
2. ISIS will fight in any way it can, before 9/11 Al-Quaeda didn't have a 'track record' or hijacking passenger aircraft and using them as guided missiles. This is why it worked. Not having a track record of infiltrating airports would be a plus. Besides this is Egypt, there are radicals there, even if no one in the airport technical services was an ISIS member one could become an ISIS convert, radicalise and want to do his bit. Not all jihadists are illiterate savages or ignorant dupes, some are highly educated people. The Glasgow airport bombing was attempted by a doctor.
Or it could be as simple as watching a few episodes of Aircrash Investigation to learn that because component X of an airliner being fault it lost control and crashed, getting onto the airport and sabotaging component X on a plane due to fly the next day. A smart person could pick up enough info to sabotage an aircraft just by watching popular television. The hard part is access to the aircraft and tools. Having airport security personnel in on the plot could give you this access. It sounds feasible enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/31 23:35:36
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Current theories suggest pressure bulkhead fail. Could be from external (shot down), internal (bomb or cargo) or mechanical. The aircraft had suffered a tail strike some years ago (hit it's arse end on the runway on landing). The pressure bulkhead is at the back, just before the elevator screwjack. If it goes it blows your tail off.
The ISIS speculation is entertaining, but I'm gonna go with mechanical failure, with poor maintenance as a primary factor.
It seems sort of unlikely to me that ISIL took the plane down. It could be a bomb on board, but I don't think they have SAM's, right?. My guess is just a mechanical failure of some kind. We'll see though, I imagine.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Orlanth wrote: Or it could be as simple as watching a few episodes of Aircrash Investigation to learn that because component X of an airliner being fault it lost control and crashed, getting onto the airport and sabotaging component X on a plane due to fly the next day. A smart person could pick up enough info to sabotage an aircraft just by watching popular television. The hard part is access to the aircraft and tools. Having airport security personnel in on the plot could give you this access. It sounds feasible enough.
It's much harder than that. Most failures like that are things that looked ok on the ground and failed slowly over time, so you'd have to perfectly sabotage a vital component so that it will fail in a catastrophic way but will still pass the preflight inspections. And ideally you'd want it to fail immediately, it doesn't help as much if your target crashes a month later in some random part of the world, or if the sabotage is discovered at a later inspection. And honestly, if you have the level of access required for such a complex bit of sabotage you probably have the ability to put a bomb on the plane and make sure you have a disaster.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/01 00:42:14
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Orlanth wrote: Or it could be as simple as watching a few episodes of Aircrash Investigation to learn that because component X of an airliner being fault it lost control and crashed, getting onto the airport and sabotaging component X on a plane due to fly the next day. A smart person could pick up enough info to sabotage an aircraft just by watching popular television. The hard part is access to the aircraft and tools. Having airport security personnel in on the plot could give you this access. It sounds feasible enough.
Sounds feasible - but is complete bobbins. Even if you've got access to an aircraft, with the right tools and a whole month of watching nothing but crash shows on tv, you're never going to be able to work out how to sabotage an aircraft to such an extent that pre-flight functionals won't pick up your work. On top of that, unless you have specific frame experience you're simply not going to have a clue where to start just from watching tv. (psst... Die Hard 2 wasn't a documentary)
Now if an experienced engineer with time and access were to do the deed you may have a point, but you can guess how likely that is to occur.
Edit - ninja'd by Peregrine
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/01 00:56:06
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
The Undying Spawn of Shub-Niggurath 
