Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Isn't it just a tad ludicrous that when fighting, say, a space marine every single point of strength from 2-6 is worth a die shift, but Weapon Skill stats are effectively worthless from 5-8?

Characters with WS 6+ are essentially just wasting points for nothing, and we have situations where veterans with 1000s of years of combat experience will fail to hit a building-sized tank one time out of 3.

Maybe it wouldn't make assault good compared to all the ridiculous needless buffs to shooting, but it might be a start to make CC stats worth SOMETHING.

It doesn't represent that. It represents getting a solid hit in, while weaving in and out of combat, trying not to get hit by stray shells etc. You try sword fight someone on a battlefield full of explosions and death robots and pay 100% attention to the fight. With missiles going over your head your not sure are friendly or enemy. And trying not make a grave mistake.

More could be done with WS. BS10 actually means something.

I'd advocate using the same BS for WS personally.

I don't.

I advocate that Weapon Skill have other benefits. Notably, the higher your WS is versus that of your opponent?

You gain additional attacks.
So, Vanguard Veterans against a unit of Tau Breachers would be getting an additional two attacks with whatever other bonus attacks they have(HoW, Charging, paired weapons or BP/CCW, etc).

It makes getting those CC units into CC that much more terrifying in my opinion.

Some other ideas?
For every point of difference of WS between you and your opponent, you either gain or lose a point of armor.
For every point of difference of WS between you and your opponent, you gain a point of armor or an Invulnerable Save during Overwatch(to represent a hardened fighter exploiting the dirtiest tricks they know to get into the melee or a fighter who cares nothing for their comrades getting shot up or things of that nature).

 Von Chogg wrote:
It doesn't represent that. It represents getting a solid hit in, while weaving in and out of combat, trying not to get hit by stray shells etc. You try sword fight someone on a battlefield full of explosions and death robots and pay 100% attention to the fight. With missiles going over your head your not sure are friendly or enemy. And trying not make a grave mistake.

Fluff has no place at the table when discussing mechanics.

Ws used to have to be limited because more units have ws5+ and melee used to be stronger, with no overwatch, sweeping advance, less high ap cover ignore weapons for cheap

I think making WS work more like BS or at least have the table extend to 2+ to hit would b good for the games variety

 Von Chogg wrote:
It doesn't represent that. It represents getting a solid hit in, while weaving in and out of combat, trying not to get hit by stray shells etc. You try sword fight someone on a battlefield full of explosions and death robots and pay 100% attention to the fight. With missiles going over your head your not sure are friendly or enemy. And trying not make a grave mistake.

But in 40k nobody shoots at you while you're having a sword fight.

Ball's in your court, Ringo.

Some of these are utterly bonkers.

Extra attacks? So a Bloodthirster gets 7 extra attacks vs Guardsmen or 6 vs Marines for no extra points?

Extra points of Armour lost, so WS5 models armed with a wet noodle ignore Flak armour completely?

Hitting on a 2+ with a reroll for WS10 (like for BS10)? Just say he auto-hits at that point... with all of his attacks. For free.

Just ridiculous.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Von Chogg wrote:
It doesn't represent that. It represents getting a solid hit in, while weaving in and out of combat, trying not to get hit by stray shells etc. You try sword fight someone on a battlefield full of explosions and death robots and pay 100% attention to the fight. With missiles going over your head your not sure are friendly or enemy. And trying not make a grave mistake.

But in 40k nobody shoots at you while you're having a sword fight.

Ball's in your court, Ringo.

I'm pretty sure they do shoot, it's just that at close ranges assault rifles probably get knocked around enough that they go all over the place. Just imagine a Tau trying to point blank you with their Pulse Rifles, once you're that close you could probably slap the end of the barrel to the side and make them miss pretty easily. That's probably why their WS is so low, as they don't have close combat weapons and are trying to blast people up close with the musket things.

My gaud. This topic comes up every time somebody feels their melee unit should spank the everliving gak out of crappy duder "A".

First off, how many units have BS 6+? Maybe... 4 units in the game? Maybe? Try to name 3, to have a laugh. I can't think of any. All BS 5 that I can think of are HQ characters... whoopedy gak. I have one guy in my army that can fire a Combi-weapon one time on a 2+.

I'll point out the same thing I do every time some whiney person complains that they can't 2+ a Guardsman. First off, you're being shot at with pistols, grenades, walking through trip-wires, and generally being tag-teamed by 3 times as many duders as your Knight in shining armour. Yes, a weapons master is going to wipe the floor with one opponent. He's going to have his ass handed to him when 5 guys jump on him at once, and start shooting him with pistols. For some reason, a guy with a Power Fist thinks he can hit me on a 2+ while I'm shooting a plasma pistol at him, point blank?

For feth's sake, it isn't a fencing competition. It's not an MMA fight. This is dudes shooting at you from a bolt-hole, while you try to hack him with a sword. This is you, trying to punch a guy, while he's lobbing grenades at you as you run through a mine field. If you want to talk reality, get into the reality of the situation. You should be dead 100 yards before you get to swing a sword.

"But it's 40k, and that's how things roll." Sure, but that's also why you top out at 3+, because you're busy trying to not get shot in the face while you try to hit someone with a hammer that weights twice as much as a human being. Damnit, but this whine gets old.

 greatbigtree wrote:
My gaud. This topic comes up every time somebody feels their melee unit should spank the everliving gak out of crappy duder "A".

First off, how many units have BS 6+? Maybe... 4 units in the game? Maybe? Try to name 3, to have a laugh. I can't think of any. All BS 5 that I can think of are HQ characters... whoopedy gak. I have one guy in my army that can fire a Combi-weapon one time on a 2+.

I'll point out the same thing I do every time some whiney person complains that they can't 2+ a Guardsman. First off, you're being shot at with pistols, grenades, walking through trip-wires, and generally being tag-teamed by 3 times as many duders as your Knight in shining armour. Yes, a weapons master is going to wipe the floor with one opponent. He's going to have his ass handed to him when 5 guys jump on him at once, and start shooting him with pistols. For some reason, a guy with a Power Fist thinks he can hit me on a 2+ while I'm shooting a plasma pistol at him, point blank?

For feth's sake, it isn't a fencing competition. It's not an MMA fight. This is dudes shooting at you from a bolt-hole, while you try to hack him with a sword. This is you, trying to punch a guy, while he's lobbing grenades at you as you run through a mine field. If you want to talk reality, get into the reality of the situation. You should be dead 100 yards before you get to swing a sword.

"But it's 40k, and that's how things roll." Sure, but that's also why you top out at 3+, because you're busy trying to not get shot in the face while you try to hit someone with a hammer that weights twice as much as a human being. Damnit, but this whine gets old.

tbf, it would still be an interesting game mechanic to have ws6+ actually do something. Maybe make it similar to bs6+, only more expensive.

I agree that we dont need too many guys hitting in melee on a 2+, however, I think it should be easier to force the other guy to have to hit back on a 5+.

I'd make it a little bit harder on the guy with the lower WS to hit back more so than just a 4+. Probably start it with only a 2 or 3 point difference. I'd also say that if the stat is 5 or more difference, it doesn't move to a 2+, but maybe you get to reroll 1s or something like that.

Run the math on this and rethink whether this is a good idea.

I'm so glad you cant sweep into combat anymore... haha, that was so annoying.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Some of these are utterly bonkers.

Extra attacks? So a Bloodthirster gets 7 extra attacks vs Guardsmen or 6 vs Marines for no extra points?



Hitting on a 2+ with a reroll for WS10 (like for BS10)? Just say he auto-hits at that point... with all of his attacks. For free.

Just ridiculous.

Given that BS10 does exactly that for models that have it, why is this so crazy? The added difficulty of having to actually get into close combat in my opinion warrants the extra damage potential.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Extra points of Armour lost, so WS5 models armed with a wet noodle ignore Flak armour completely?

Must say I agree on this one. It makes no sense. However, he nowhere said that 1WS equals -1 armor.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Extra attacks? So a Bloodthirster gets 7 extra attacks vs Guardsmen or 6 vs Marines for no extra points?

Of course we could always limit this so it wouldn't take the model's Attack characteristic above 10 (before other modifiers. So yes a BT would have 10 attacks + whatever bonuses he has from 2CC or charging. Quite frankly I think that wouldn't be over the top seeing as how it's so easy to actually render a BT useless by tieing him up with 20 Boyz. Even 10 tactical marines will keep him out of the game for 2-3 turns (which is a third to half the game, and you probably already spent at least turn getting him over there). Melee units need to do significantly more damage than shooting units because they have to compensate for the fact that they can't do any damage during the first two turns of the game.

 Btothefnrock wrote:
I'm so glad you cant sweep into combat anymore... haha, that was so annoying.

I don't know man. In the current system with random consolidation distance, I think you'd be pretty stupid to let someone consolidate into another one of your units.

 greatbigtree wrote:
My gaud. This topic comes up every time somebody feels their melee unit should spank the everliving gak out of crappy duder "A".

First off, how many units have BS 6+? Maybe... 4 units in the game? Maybe? Try to name 3, to have a laugh. I can't think of any. All BS 5 that I can think of are HQ characters... whoopedy gak. I have one guy in my army that can fire a Combi-weapon one time on a 2+.

I'll point out the same thing I do every time some whiney person complains that they can't 2+ a Guardsman. First off, you're being shot at with pistols, grenades, walking through trip-wires, and generally being tag-teamed by 3 times as many duders as your Knight in shining armour. Yes, a weapons master is going to wipe the floor with one opponent. He's going to have his ass handed to him when 5 guys jump on him at once, and start shooting him with pistols. For some reason, a guy with a Power Fist thinks he can hit me on a 2+ while I'm shooting a plasma pistol at him, point blank?

For feth's sake, it isn't a fencing competition. It's not an MMA fight. This is dudes shooting at you from a bolt-hole, while you try to hack him with a sword. This is you, trying to punch a guy, while he's lobbing grenades at you as you run through a mine field. If you want to talk reality, get into the reality of the situation. You should be dead 100 yards before you get to swing a sword.

"But it's 40k, and that's how things roll." Sure, but that's also why you top out at 3+, because you're busy trying to not get shot in the face while you try to hit someone with a hammer that weights twice as much as a human being. Damnit, but this whine gets old.

Just for a laugh? Harlequin Shadowseer, Harlequin Solitaire, Harlequin Troupe Master, Dark Eldar Archon and Succubus. Just off the top of my head that I know for sure.

The exact same argument can be said for ballistics skill-why doesn't to-hit cap at 3? After all this isn't a shooting gallery this is guys dodging around in foxholes while trying to shoot you while you try to aim with a weapon that weighs half as much as you do! Insert lame "realism" argument here.

How many die shifts are there for shooting? 6+ to 2+, that's 5, and past that another fraction. Diminishing returns after BS5, but full statistical variance for the points you pay.

How about Strength vs Toughness stats? Again, 2+ to 6+, all the way up to "can't wound at all". There are very few scenarios where you see no return for a point in strength vs a point in toughness.

Now we come to WS. There is, in 95% of cases, a single die shift at stake. Either both will hit on 4s, or one will hit on 3s. Fighting a WS4 opponent, a WS of 1, 2, or 3 is the same, and a WS of 5+ is exactly the same.

The logic behind "if you double your opponents weapon skill, plus one, you gain ONE DIE SHIFT" is patently ludicrous. Can you imagine if we did the same thing with strength and toughness? A Dreadnought wounding a guardsman on 3s?

the_scotsman wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
My gaud. This topic comes up every time somebody feels their melee unit should spank the everliving gak out of crappy duder "A".

First off, how many units have BS 6+? Maybe... 4 units in the game? Maybe? Try to name 3, to have a laugh. I can't think of any. All BS 5 that I can think of are HQ characters...

Just for a laugh? Harlequin Shadowseer, Harlequin Solitaire, Harlequin Troupe Master, Dark Eldar Archon and Succubus. Just off the top of my head that I know for sure.

Don't forget that all four imperial assassins sport BS/WS 8! It's always irked me that the WS table was so much more forgiving than the BS table, "Why aren't they the same?" Has been a topic thats popped up at the flgs on several occasions. I honestly that BS and WS should share the same table, it would be a great boon to dedicated assault unit that have taken major hits from the edition changes over the years.

As for sweeping into another assault, while I don't particularly miss It I know it helped out assault units, and to top it off was pretty thematic.

I would like something to be changed. The Swarmlord does suffer from a bad codex but also the assault table.

Dunno why some Devastators can move fast enough to dodge attacks from a Swarmlord, possibly kill him and then pick up their heavy weapons as nothing ever happened.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Some of these are utterly bonkers.

Extra attacks? So a Bloodthirster gets 7 extra attacks vs Guardsmen or 6 vs Marines for no extra points?

It'd make you prioritize shooting that bugger down even more, wouldn't it?

Extra points of Armour lost, so WS5 models armed with a wet noodle ignore Flak armour completely?

A point of armor lost(OR GAINED) for every point difference between two units.
What are most WS5 models armed with? Not "generic CCW"(which is a profile of Strength: User and AP -), meaning they'll be ignoring Flak Armor anyways. Balancing around that is kind of ridiculous.

But in any regards, let's go back to the example I gave: Vanguard Veterans versus Fire Warriors.
Vanguard Veterans are WS4. If those Vanguard Veterans are using Chainswords and Pistols? Fire Warriors are going from a 4+ save to 6+ save.
When those remaining Fire Warriors attack back, the Vanguard Veterans gain a 2 point bonus(capped at a 2+ save maximum) to their armor save.

Hitting on a 2+ with a reroll for WS10 (like for BS10)? Just say he auto-hits at that point... with all of his attacks. For free.

Just ridiculous.

No, what's ridiculous is that Assault oriented units can be gunned down before they ever get to swing--AND Assault units are priced to coincide with them successfully getting into CC.

 greatbigtree wrote:
My gaud. This topic comes up every time somebody feels their melee unit should spank the everliving gak out of crappy duder "A".

First off, how many units have BS 6+? Maybe... 4 units in the game? Maybe? Try to name 3, to have a laugh. I can't think of any. All BS 5 that I can think of are HQ characters... whoopedy gak. I have one guy in my army that can fire a Combi-weapon one time on a 2+.

I'll point out the same thing I do every time some whiney person complains that they can't 2+ a Guardsman. First off, you're being shot at with pistols, grenades, walking through trip-wires, and generally being tag-teamed by 3 times as many duders as your Knight in shining armour. Yes, a weapons master is going to wipe the floor with one opponent. He's going to have his ass handed to him when 5 guys jump on him at once, and start shooting him with pistols. For some reason, a guy with a Power Fist thinks he can hit me on a 2+ while I'm shooting a plasma pistol at him, point blank?

For feth's sake, it isn't a fencing competition. It's not an MMA fight. This is dudes shooting at you from a bolt-hole, while you try to hack him with a sword. This is you, trying to punch a guy, while he's lobbing grenades at you as you run through a mine field. If you want to talk reality, get into the reality of the situation. You should be dead 100 yards before you get to swing a sword.

"But it's 40k, and that's how things roll." Sure, but that's also why you top out at 3+, because you're busy trying to not get shot in the face while you try to hit someone with a hammer that weights twice as much as a human being. Damnit, but this whine gets old.

Whoa dude, calm down. I don't know if you play the current edition of 40k, but melee aside from a few ridiculous outstanding options, needs help badly.

If you use the "chaos is happening around you" argument, why can you still shoot with crazy accuracy from across the board?

Regardless, the fluff of the situation is completely pointless. This is a game. The crunch is more important. Melee is a thing in the game, and needs to work worth its points like any other option.

I would be fine with this changing. I don't think the way specialist games handle WS would work in a game as large as 40k has become (Even 6 models in combat becomes a bit of a nightmare, I can't imagine a mob of boyz or a 40 man IG blob with those rules).

Changing it to match the BS table wouldn't bother me. If a Bloodthirster auto-hits all of his melee attacks against basic marines well...shouldn't he? He's the pinnacle of combat, only other characters that can claim such should have a hope of causing him to miss.

What's weird to me is that a bloodthirster hits a grot 2/3 of the time. That's so off putting fluff wise, and not at all how the fluff and RPGs make it seem.


Balance wise, I don't think its a big deal. WS isn't a huge stat that matters, with only 3-5 really making a big deal. Only 5+ would feel these changes, and those units aren't common. Melee, outside of deathstars and MCs, isn't very strong. If I knew my melee guys would hit guardsmen on a 2+ and be hit on a higher number, they'd be worth taking.

 greatbigtree wrote:
My gaud. This topic comes up every time somebody feels their melee unit should spank the everliving gak out of crappy duder "A".

First off, how many units have BS 6+? Maybe... 4 units in the game? Maybe? Try to name 3, to have a laugh. I can't think of any. All BS 5 that I can think of are HQ characters... whoopedy gak. I have one guy in my army that can fire a Combi-weapon one time on a 2+.

I'll point out the same thing I do every time some whiney person complains that they can't 2+ a Guardsman. First off, you're being shot at with pistols, grenades, walking through trip-wires, and generally being tag-teamed by 3 times as many duders as your Knight in shining armour. Yes, a weapons master is going to wipe the floor with one opponent. He's going to have his ass handed to him when 5 guys jump on him at once, and start shooting him with pistols. For some reason, a guy with a Power Fist thinks he can hit me on a 2+ while I'm shooting a plasma pistol at him, point blank?

For feth's sake, it isn't a fencing competition. It's not an MMA fight. This is dudes shooting at you from a bolt-hole, while you try to hack him with a sword. This is you, trying to punch a guy, while he's lobbing grenades at you as you run through a mine field. If you want to talk reality, get into the reality of the situation. You should be dead 100 yards before you get to swing a sword.

"But it's 40k, and that's how things roll." Sure, but that's also why you top out at 3+, because you're busy trying to not get shot in the face while you try to hit someone with a hammer that weights twice as much as a human being. Damnit, but this whine gets old.

So then if I'm dropping templates from an indirect fire tank from anywhere on the board, your units are -3 BS because, "holy gak, it's raining death from the skies! Duck!", not to mention smoke, dust, blinding flashes of fire, etc right?

Haha, no, that isn't how the game works, because BS is never penalized by anything coincidental to the battle, only by specific effects from wargear, psychic powers, or similar mechanics.

 greatbigtree wrote:
First off, how many units have BS 6+? Maybe... 4 units in the game? Maybe? Try to name 3, to have a laugh. I can't think of any. All BS 5 that I can think of are HQ characters... whoopedy gak. I have one guy in my army that can fire a Combi-weapon one time on a 2+.

Asurmen
Autarch
Baharroth
Fuegan
Illic Nightspear
Jain Zar
Karandras
Maugan Ra
Prince Yriel
Avatar of Khaine

And that's only one codex. Of course they are all WS 6+ as well so...

 greatbigtree wrote:
My gaud. This topic comes up every time somebody feels their melee unit should spank the everliving gak out of crappy duder "A".

First off, how many units have BS 6+? Maybe... 4 units in the game? Maybe? Try to name 3, to have a laugh. I can't think of any. All BS 5 that I can think of are HQ characters... whoopedy gak. I have one guy in my army that can fire a Combi-weapon one time on a 2+.

St. Celestine also has BS/WS of 7.

Sgt. telion is bs 6. Anything khorne related tends to have insane BS, including basic bloodletters that have bs5. (Not that they have anything to shoot unless they get over to a gun emplacement.)

I agree that something needs to be done to the WS table to make it a bit more fair. Maybe it can be like the BS table but maybe without the re-rolls? I've always thought of WS as a sort of opposed skill test, which represents one model swinging at the other, with the other one trying to duck/parry/dodge or whatever else. Leaving it at a 3+ means that a third of the time a Bloodthirster is completely whiffing against a grot.

Grots are small and really good at ducking. So wiffing is a real possibility. :p

 Jayden63 wrote:
Grots are small and really good at ducking. So wiffing is a real possibility. :p

I can just see the Bloodthirster now.

"BAH! I have defeated the greatest champions for millenia untold! Thousands of races have fallen to my skill, the mountains of skulls I have created spread forth in an infinity that shatters the pysche in it's scope!
BUT THESE BUGGERS ARE JUST TOO SHORT MUH SKILLS!"

In all honesty I'm personally not a huge fan of the current melee system, but with a few tweaks I think it could be better.

I think initiative should only grant the first attack per model in the combat, then all remaining attacks are resolved simultaneously.

Then having ws scale more than it does now, however there should be two charts.

The first one would be more like what people are suggesting where one point differnce changes the roll by one, and this would only be used for challenges. This is to represent two fighters solely focusing on fighting each other.

The next chart would be a bit more forgiving for weaker units to hit, however higher skilled units could get up to a 2+ to hit. The 5+ to hit would be if a unit is 3 ws or higher. This is to represent a mass of units fighting where attacking and defending would be more difficult because of the number of units in a combat.

discussions like these always remind me how much better a system warmahordes has for dealing with both melee AND shooting. the only problem is the scaling with that system where often times a unit is throwing 3+ attacks per model at a time in 40k, requiring you to roll each of those individually and factor in large blob squads of things like orks would slow the game down by a hellova lot.

edit: it occurred to me that if you drop the 2d6/boosting mechanic and made it only a single d6 for the roll, with reducing the respective DEF/ARM stats accordingly to compensate, it would work perfectly...