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As it stands the Broadside High-yield Missile Pod almost completely outclasses the Heavy Rail Rifle, and the Hammerhead Railgun is almost as inferior to the Ion Cannon - the S10 AP1 can be grand, but falls into the same traps that every single-shot AT weapon falls into. Looking down the list of Rail weapons, the Rail Rifle almost screams the answer.

Heavy Rail Rifle: 40" S8 AP1 Rapid Fire
Railgun: 50" S10 AP1 Rapid Fire

This has some obvious benefits besides the neat new mechanics. matching the Tau's new pulse technology. Requiring the long-range army to get CLOSE to do it's dirty work opens up all kinds of tactical decisions. It also revitalizes Broadsides by giving them a not-heavy primary weapon, letting them take a move-and-shoot arsenal or a heavier stationary one.

They don't need Rapid Fire. They really don't.

What they need is more than one shot or the ability to cause multiple wounds in a straight line or something of that nature.

The Hammerhead weapon should be Str D without a doubt.

The HRR got screwed along with all other single shot anti-tank weapons with the table change and the fact that MCs just don't give a damn about high STR single shots.

I'd say no on the railgun, but the Submunition shot shouldn't cost extra.

The HRR definitely could use it, or being Salvo 2/1. The extra shot and the option to move and shoot would make it a good alternative to the HYMP.

Jefffar wrote:
I'd say no on the railgun, but the Submunition shot shouldn't cost extra.

The HRR definitely could use it, or being Salvo 2/1. The extra shot and the option to move and shoot would make it a good alternative to the HYMP.

Not really. You are still mostly banking on HPing out a vehicle, and going from Str 7 to Str 8 isn't worth halving your RoF.

Personally, i wish they'd revamp Rail weapons as a whole. Rail weapons exist in real life and theyre extremely low rate of fire weapons that will demolish anything they hit at tremendous range. Currently, only the Heavy Rail Gun does this since its Str D.

Theyre so weak compared to other weapons, even 1shot weapons. HRR is just as strong as a Melta with extra range in exchange for the reason for being a Melta (double pen). S8 isnt going to kill anything the HYMP wont kill just as easily if not easier. And since its a single shot, its not good for splatting things due to ablative wounds in the way/LoS available.

Im in the same mindset as the Rail Rifle, but at least it has Rapid Fire and due to the unit its attached to it wont be after vehicles anyway.

Heavy Rail Rifles should be S9 AP1 and cause D3 wounds on a To Wound of 6 (or autopen).
Rail Gun should be Str D without Deathblow
Heavy Rail Gun Str D that causes 2 D strikes on the same model (it is after all a single shot, so it makes no sense to kill more than one target but BOY will that one target hurt)

I feel changing Rail Rifles would be unusual since theyre a pathfinder weapon. It would either break the 1 deadly shot motif or make the unit want 2 different targets at once, and i'd rather the former so i dont waste pulse carbine shots.

The Hammerhead Railgun's solid shot should be primary weapon. It should also have an *technobabble* shell with S9 AP2 that removes D3 wounds or hull points instead for every unsaved wound/hull point inflicted. And keep Submunitions the same but included in the base price.

The HRR should have a smaller version of this with the solid being Str 8 AP1 primary weapon, Str 7 AP3 D3 wounds/hp, str 6 AP4 small blast.

 Kanluwen wrote:
They don't need Rapid Fire. They really don't.

What they need is more than one shot or the ability to cause multiple wounds in a straight line or something of that nature.

Back when WHFB still existed, bolt throwers could piece ranks and deal D3 wounds per model, iirc, with the strength decreasing by 1 for every model it passes through.

A modified mechanic could apply to rail type weapons.
Maybe without the strength decreasing though.

One way that such a mechanic could work in 40k is that you draw a straight line from the firer to a point that is at the weapon's max range.
This line is affected by elevation, and as such may shoot over or under models.
You make a to-hit roll for any model, friendly or foe (yes, I'm evil), that this line passes through. The to-hit roll in this case represents the target moving away at the last second, the firer's aim swaying by a slight degree, ect ect.
If a model hit is not removed as a casualty, do not make anymore rolls; the rail shot has successfully been stopped.
Unsaved wounds cause D6 wounds.
Against vehicles, add D6 to the to-penetrate roll.

This idea may or may not be insane.
Its still probably more reasonable than D weapons in sub-Apoc games, 2+ rerollables and Eldar though.

A less insane alternative would be to take the above, but limit it to a conventional single target system as opposed to table high.
Roll to hit as usual.
Against units that consist of multiple models, draw a straight line from the firer to the edge of the unit.
If it hits, roll to wound. If it kills the first model the line touches, go to the next model, and decrease the strength by weapons strength by one. Continue until the last model the line touches in the unit is removed, or until the weapon fails to kill something.
Against monstrous creatures, this weapon deals D6 wounds for every unsaved wound
Against vehicles, add D6 to the to-pen roll

...so basically bolt thrower rules.

I think even a simple change of "remove twin linked" in favor of "heavy 2" would be not an extreme move and greatly increase the usability.

Given the option to take in a Retaliation cadre to get relentless, a unit of this with plasma rifles would be dishing out 6 s8 and 6 TL s6, which would be excellent for hunting rear AV and MC, still be effective against TEQ and smaller squads of MEQ.

I thought the general consensus for why they don't have something like this is that they would obliterate flyers.

Alcibiades wrote:
I thought the general consensus for why they don't have something like this is that they would obliterate flyers.

I don't think it would obliterate them more so then our HBC riptide, or HYMP do already.. or skyrays.. or all the other options we have.. Ghostkeel in an OSC..

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I thought the general consensus for why they don't have something like this is that they would obliterate flyers.

I don't think it would obliterate them more so then our HBC riptide, or HYMP do already.. or skyrays.. or all the other options we have.. Ghostkeel in an OSC..

I think the issue is EWO + flyers come in from reserve + effectively infinite range on most tables + no LOS blocking terrain for flyers..

I'm not arguing the point, just repeating what I've seen argued.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I thought the general consensus for why they don't have something like this is that they would obliterate flyers.

I don't think it would obliterate them more so then our HBC riptide, or HYMP do already.. or skyrays.. or all the other options we have.. Ghostkeel in an OSC..

I think the issue is EWO + flyers come in from reserve + effectively infinite range on most boards.

I'm not arguing the point, just repeating what I've seen argued.

No totally, I understand where your coming from. 60" is pretty narly, and I can see many people arguing that would be OP... but that said.. broadsides can't have both EWO and velocity trackers.. so they are either snap firing at incoming targets or waiting until their turn, which is fine I would think.

But yeah anyway, not the point of the OP haha.

I think the best way to improve rail weapons is to use a larger table.

Wouldn't mind them using a Distort D weapon.

Powerful, but not '6, remove model' powerful.

I'm going to be the filthy heretic here and suggest some weird stuff.

Heavy Railgun: R120 SD AP1 Primary Weapon 1, Devastating
Railgun: R72 S10 AP1 Primary Weapon 1, Lance, Armourbane, Shockwave
Heavy Rail Rifle: R48 S8 AP1 Rapid-fire, Lance,Shockwave
Rail Rifle: R30 S6 AP1 Rapid-fire, Shockwave

Devastating: When a model is hit by this weapon, roll 1d3 times on the Destroyer table and apply all results. Saves, if permitted, may be taken individually against each result.
Shockwave: Any unsaved wound from this weapon inflicts two wounds in addition to any other effects it may have. If the wound is discounted due to Feel No Pain (or any analogous effect such as Necron Reanimation Protocols), this effect is not triggered. A penetrating hit from this weapon removes an additional hull point and inflicts a Crew Stunned result in addition to any other effects.

jade_angel wrote:
I'm going to be the filthy heretic here and suggest some weird stuff.

Heavy Railgun: R120 SD AP1 Primary Weapon 1, Devastating
Railgun: R72 S10 AP1 Primary Weapon 1, Lance, Armourbane, Shockwave
Heavy Rail Rifle: R48 S8 AP1 Rapid-fire, Lance,Shockwave
Rail Rifle: R30 S6 AP1 Rapid-fire, Shockwave

Devastating: When a model is hit by this weapon, roll 1d3 times on the Destroyer table and apply all results. Saves, if permitted, may be taken individually against each result.
Shockwave: Any unsaved wound from this weapon inflicts two wounds in addition to any other effects it may have. If the wound is discounted due to Feel No Pain, this effect is not triggered. A penetrating hit from this weapon removes an additional hull point and inflicts a Crew Stunned result in addition to any other effects.

Did you pull those rules from somewhere or just make them up? referring to devastating and shockwave.. I like the concepts.

I made them up on the spot. If they've been proposed before, under those names or others, it's a coincidence.

I came up with those while pondering ideas for DE darklight weapons, actually, but I think they apply at least as well to railguns.

Several of the suggestions made are just too outrageous for a 125 point tank or 65 point model. making broadsides relentless is something the should just have, or T5 so they don't get instant-killed by a lascannon. Both would need them to bump the price up too mcuh.
But the hammerheads railgun doesnt need lance and armorbane and each heat does d3 (1/3rd chance of instant killing most vehicles in the game that's not even an explodes result) etc. give it a twin linked option for 15 pts, and that 1 shot becomes alot more reliable.
HRR being on a preferably relentless platform is all I'd want, but i am used to fighting terminator heavy armies, so i prefer quality shots, and recognize it will likely stay worse than HYMP
rail rifle, i'd love an extra 6-12" of range, probably 6 to match markerlights in the unit. supposed to be a sniper level weapon, 18" shorter than a pulse rifle up-graded for sniping on a drone.

Also, from a scientific standpoint, a railgun couldn't rapid fire anyways. The chamber would overheat from A) the heat of the magnets and B) the velocity pressure of those slugs being fired out. Firing it rapidly in succession would cause it to crack, shatter or splinter.

Though, with that being said, I'd say it would be allowable but with some kind of downside. Maybe make it an Overcharge kind of thing that adds the Gets Hot special rule to the weapon to signify that it overheats badly when under those kinds of performance.

Another way to do it would be to try it out in the best way possible for Tau: Signature Systems. Start off by creating some kind of Signature System that is a Rail Gun with Rapid Fire and Overheat. Use that base to fiddle with the IC points cost then, once you and your opponents find something that works and is fair, you can try giving it to other units by cutting the cost to a third.

Idea for a special rule for Rail weapons, even:
Magrail: You may improve this weapon's number of attacks by 1. If you do so, the weapon also gains the Gets Hot special rule until the end of the turn. If the Gets Hot special rule is triggered, this weapon may not be used during your next turn.

I like that idea, being on a twin-linked platform, i would be willing to do that almost with no regard, but even 1 failure roll that gets hot would slow me down.

Or make heavy rail rifles come with stabilizing anchors, so i can fire twice if i don't move, like the storm surge.

With 60"range i probably wont need to move for a while (terrain dependant)

Broadsides are supposed to have stabilizing anchors anyway. They did in Dawn of War and the model appears to have them on the back of the feet. I don't really want them to be fixed that way, though; don't like being forced into static play. And rapid firing doesn't really work because, as it was mentioned already, railguns can't fire rapidly. I really think the way to make them viable again is changing the core rules for vehicles so that single-shot anti-tank weapons aren't garbage anymore, and/or making the HYMP a 30-50 point upgrade instead of making the far superior weapon option even more of a no-brainer.

Of course this topic is pointless anyway since suggesting that anything in the Tau book doesn't really work or needs fixing in the first place will piss off the fething mob who thinks they're the most OP thing GW has ever released and that you should be hanged for even thinking about playing them.

The trick, then, is fixing single-shot AT weapons to not be garbage while simultaneously not creating the case where either a) tanks won't die until you get off that one lucky shot or b) tanks instantly explode the second something scary looks at them.

Id say give the HRR S9 AP2 TL or Heavy 2.

Why not just do a sort of split shot, where the Heavy Rail Rifle also does two hits at a regular Rail Rifle shot, but at the full range? In other words, you get 1 Heavy Rail Rifle Twin Linked shot and then two none twin linked Rail Rifle hits at the extended range, which all of a sudden makes it comparable to the HYMP since you're getting less shots and a lot of them aren't Twin Linked.

In other words, the fluff would be that Heavy Rail Rifles shoot a shoot with two nested shots, that once they reach a velocity split from the sides and shrapnel targets around the main target, but at a weaker impact. Now I know this sounds far fetched, but the Tau could create good enough velocity trackers to basically compensate for the split shots at any range, and the reason they aren't Twin Linked is because the main shot is intended to hit, the side shots are bonus designed to hit on average but aren't intended to be such a focus that they reduce the accuracy of the main weapon.

Edit: And no, I don't mean rapid fire added on, though it could be an option, but rather 60" range with 1 shot of S8 AP1 Twin Linked, and then 2 shots at 60" S6 AP1 non-Twinlinked shots.

For me they fill the roll of dealing with armored infantry, Filling the same role as Crisis Suits with Plasma. Their increased survivability at the cost of maneuverability along with their massive area denial, gives them a perfect home in my army. When compared to the HYMP the HRR far surpasses it in dealing with heavily armored infantry, there is no comparison the HRR is far superior in that department.

 SaJeel wrote:
For me they fill the roll of dealing with armored infantry, Filling the same role as Crisis Suits with Plasma. Their increased survivability at the cost of maneuverability along with their massive area denial, gives them a perfect home in my army. When compared to the HYMP the HRR far surpasses it in dealing with heavily armored infantry, there is no comparison the HRR is far superior in that department.

They have literally the same average damage output against Space Marines. That's hardly "far superior".

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

They have literally the same average damage output against Space Marines. That's hardly "far superior".

Never considered a spacemarine "Heavily Armored"

He means MANZ and such.

5/6 x 2 (instant death, 2 wounds) = 1 2/3

5/6 x 1/6 = 5/36 x 4 = 5/9

The HRR wins.

This whole conversation is crazy. What are you comparing railguns to, las cannons, melta guns, distortion weapons. Railguns are exactly where they should be in that they either have better stats or better range then all the mention weapons. If you want SD or multiple wounds and autopens make the range 24"