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2015/12/31 21:05:04
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
Was thinking in the shower, I suspect the reason there has been no Chaos Codex forthcoming is the effort involved in making the units in it all completely within GW IP. As I was thinking about it it occurred to me that there are a LOT of Chaos units that have generic names. Many of the newer units and new sculpts have "new" names. For example dreadnought to "Hellbrute"
Is GW dragging their feet on releasing a new codex because there are so many units that will take not only renaming, but then require new packaging, etc to follow? Is this even a thing or am I imagining it? I am open to discussion and thoughtful back and forth, but not a fight. If I failed to STF correctly and find this previously discussed, excuse my lack of skill. But really, could this be a thing? I notice nothing recent has a generic name, even Vanilla marine new units have crazy new names.
-Heybiff
-Even the Sun goes down.
2016/01/01 01:08:43
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
Nope. Space Marines are still just Space Marines for example, the only real difference across their units is the re-branding of the army to "Adeptus Astartes 'insert Chapter name'".
The reason why Chaos is being entirely ignored by GW is more than likely down to the following reasons;
1. The entire line bar 3-4 kits is ancient and badly in need of a complete overhaul. They are literally at the point where Dark Eldar were 5-6 years ago. It takes a lot of capitol investment to effectively re-launch what will constitute an entire brand new army.
GW obviously doesn't want to take the financial risk, and thus, Chaos can't have nice things...
2. GW has no idea what the overall identity of the Chaos Space Marines should be.
Should the codex focus on the 10,000 year old Heresy era veterans and the original 9 Legions who turned traitor? Should the army be focused instead on the recently turned Renegades? Or should the Chaos Marines be focused on the power of Chaos itself, and become a menagerie of daemonically warped & possessed supermen + vehicles?
GW has no clue, and thus, the book is instead a hollow shell with no real identity or character of it's own, and instead tries to do a little bit of everything, but ends up doing everything poorly.
3. There's no one within the design team who's really enthused about Chaos, and thus, no one really wants the thankless task of re-branding the army. Sad but true. GW only works on projects that someone has an idea for.
With no voice to champion anything for Chaos, well, Chaos can't have nice things...
Basically, Chaos - especially Chaos Marines, are the 'NEW!' Sisters of Battle of 40k. So much for being the greatest threat to the Imperium.
2016/01/01 14:21:05
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
That's rather sad. Personally I'd be more for the original traitor legions with renegades being a supplement. Gotta say the renegades interest me the least of all the chaos marines. Daemonically warped and possessed super-men sounds better though. It'd actually give chaos a unique flavor rather than being the evil unloved space marines.
You are spot on about the model range requiring a massive overhaul, however one thing to keep in mind is that GW are very much aware of the 6th Edition codex being another big reason they haven't gotten much attention. Multiple GW managers have been pretty open to people about how much CSM sales tanked after the current codex dropped.
It's not really a case of GW not wanting to do it, it's probably more to do with the scale of the project. If I'm not mistaken Chaos used to be the second biggest 40K seller behind Space Marines, now Tau and maybe a few others have overtaken them. They know they need to step up their game and I'm guessing they want to get everything else out of the way first to give Chaos the update they deserve.
I'm not in the know at all, just going off what various managers have said. Atia said we won't really see much Chaos in 2016 - Rubric Marines, maybe a Lord of Change - but 2017 could very well be the year of 40K Chaos.
2016/01/01 15:40:07
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
My biggest fear is that *IF* GW ever does release another Chaos codex, they're going to go and over do it on the whole 'warped & daemonically mutated' Marines.
I really don't want to see every single basic Chaos Marine suddenly become 'DV Chosen' levels of chaosification just to differentiate them from Loyalist scum... Ideally, a revamped basic Chaos Marine kit stays just that detail wise - basic!
Just re-tool the kit to the newer Marine proportions, and clean up the details on their armour. Spikes, skulls, the eight-pointed star + variations, banding, chains/chainmail tabards, impurity seals/tabards made of skin, grisly trophies, etc... Leave the super mutated aspects to the actual daemonic units such as the Possessed/Oblits/Mutilators, etc...
Havocs & Chosen could do with being a 'middle ground', with things like ammo feeds & guns beginning to physically grow into the marine himself, daemonic faces growing from the armour, more spikes, etc...
Rules wise is honestly where the change needs to begin however... For starters, Chaos Marine have the smallest armoury in the entire game! While it's right that we shouldn't get Loyalist toys, it's pure stupidity to keep us lagging 20 years in the past just to maintain a clear difference between Loyalist vs. Traitor.
Basic gear like Heavy + Hand flamers and Eviscerators are a no brainer for a close quarter army like Chaos. Likewise, older staple wargear such as the Reaper Autocannon need to be buffed big time.
While we shouldn't ever just receive 'spiky' versions of newer tech like Assault cannons & Grav weaponry, we damn well should have our unique wargear given back to us, such as Kai guns, Hellrifles, Dark blades, etc... (you know GW hates you when the freaking Inquisition can take your toys while you can't!!)
Marks also need a huge overhaul, while we're in desperate need of our own unique army-wide rule. (again, we're the only army in the game without a defining army-wide mechanic)
In place of 'And They Shall Know No Fairness' that Loyalists get, we should get something like 'Prefered Enemy: IoM' + Stubborn in assaults.
Marks need to stop being just a boring & lazy basic stat upgrade... Currently the Mark of Khorne is the most characterful one, as it gives actual benefits to how the unit should be played. (though Counter-Attack should really be Furious Charge ala Daemons of Khorne!) Yet the only mark people take is Nurgle because +1T has such a profound effect. (and really, Nurgle should be something like Shrouded + FnP)
And this isn't even addressing other glaring issues, such as how we're an assault army with no delivery system, no Deep Strike mitigation, hugely expensive basic vehicles & no varients of our own, still no PotMS/Infernal Device rule, etc...
I think the main reason why the current codex sold so poorly was in part because too many Chaos players set their expectations far too high, (we want Legion rules + Loyalist gear + begin Marine x10 + Cult rules...), and also in part because the current book was very clearly a 5th edition book that hurridly had a handful of 6th edition rules bolted onto it.
If the current book came out in 5th, (say in place of Newcrons), I think people would have accepted it a lot more readily. While it still didn't give Legion/Cult fans what they wanted, outside of how busted as feth GK's were, the book would have been competitive against the rest of the field under 5th ed rules.
Instead, it became the test bed for 6th, and along with Dark Angels was quickly left in the dust by the rest of field.
2016/01/02 01:21:31
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
Experiment 626 wrote: 3. There's no one within the design team who's really enthused about Chaos, and thus, no one really wants the thankless task of re-branding the army. Sad but true. GW only works on projects that someone has an idea for.
With no voice to champion anything for Chaos, well, Chaos can't have nice things...
I believe this is actually quite important.
After all, 3.5 codex (last decent CSM codex) happened mostly because Pete Haines cared. He overdid a few things here and there, but just take a look at that book and then compare it with Cavatore's 4th ed. codex, or Kelly's 6th ed. one. The difference is abysmal.
The problem with a new CSM codex is not only that nobody at the Studio seems interested, but also that it's unlikely the useless goons currently in charge can do the army any justice.
Dire times indeed.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
2016/01/02 01:50:13
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
They need to figure out an accurate and stark way to divide standard recent traitors and VOTLW. I think choosen should be redone into a much meaner unit, not unlike GK paladins.
2016/01/02 03:16:28
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
flamingkillamajig wrote: That's rather sad. Personally I'd be more for the original traitor legions with renegades being a supplement. Gotta say the renegades interest me the least of all the chaos marines. Daemonically warped and possessed super-men sounds better though. It'd actually give chaos a unique flavor rather than being the evil unloved space marines.
you know what, if chaos marines went in this direction, then i might take a look into starting an army (something to ally with my orks). the whole reason im not a big fan of current csm is because they are sm with spikey bits, if they went this direction then they can evolve the minis to look more unique...almost mirroring the wide variety of the chaos humans in fantasy (both pre and post aos)...who have a great aesthetic.
"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"
geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket"
2016/01/02 03:23:26
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
From what I've read a big problem lots of people have is that the current range outside of the newer kits is just boring; Space Marines with spikes is almost always a complaint, not a compliment. Chaos Space Marines are among the most messed up looking guys in 40K per the fluff and art, they are - like their gods - anathema to life and sanity. If they embrace that in a way that is still not too over the top and go the route of the Dark Vengeance Chosen I think that will please the most people who don't want to be pulled to one extreme.
2016/01/02 03:34:04
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
You are spot on about the model range requiring a massive overhaul, however one thing to keep in mind is that GW are very much aware of the 6th Edition codex being another big reason they haven't gotten much attention. Multiple GW managers have been pretty open to people about how much CSM sales tanked after the current codex dropped.
It's not really a case of GW not wanting to do it, it's probably more to do with the scale of the project. If I'm not mistaken Chaos used to be the second biggest 40K seller behind Space Marines, now Tau and maybe a few others have overtaken them. They know they need to step up their game and I'm guessing they want to get everything else out of the way first to give Chaos the update they deserve.
I'm not in the know at all, just going off what various managers have said. Atia said we won't really see much Chaos in 2016 - Rubric Marines, maybe a Lord of Change - but 2017 could very well be the year of 40K Chaos.
A basic Troops kit for a faction that is still decently popular being number eighteen on a top twenty-eight list of highest grossing kits is not really a surprise mate. Heck, freaking Harlequin Troupes are ahead of them!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/02 03:45:55
2016/01/02 05:15:52
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
You are spot on about the model range requiring a massive overhaul, however one thing to keep in mind is that GW are very much aware of the 6th Edition codex being another big reason they haven't gotten much attention. Multiple GW managers have been pretty open to people about how much CSM sales tanked after the current codex dropped.
It's not really a case of GW not wanting to do it, it's probably more to do with the scale of the project. If I'm not mistaken Chaos used to be the second biggest 40K seller behind Space Marines, now Tau and maybe a few others have overtaken them. They know they need to step up their game and I'm guessing they want to get everything else out of the way first to give Chaos the update they deserve.
I'm not in the know at all, just going off what various managers have said. Atia said we won't really see much Chaos in 2016 - Rubric Marines, maybe a Lord of Change - but 2017 could very well be the year of 40K Chaos.
The only reason the basic Chaos Marine kit rates that high is because you need it as the base to build almost every singe PA unit in the army bar Possessed, 'Zerkers & the jump pack units!
Chaos Marines, Chosen, Havocs, Noise Marines, 1kSons, Plaguemarines... ALL of them are typically based around/converted from, that one single kit.
That will tend to heavily skew the results. Overall it's an ancient kit with bad detailing and that's full of missing options.
Granted, it's still in much better shape than the utterly useless gakfest of a kit that's called 'Chaos Terminators'.
2016/01/02 16:46:57
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
You are spot on about the model range requiring a massive overhaul, however one thing to keep in mind is that GW are very much aware of the 6th Edition codex being another big reason they haven't gotten much attention. Multiple GW managers have been pretty open to people about how much CSM sales tanked after the current codex dropped.
It's not really a case of GW not wanting to do it, it's probably more to do with the scale of the project. If I'm not mistaken Chaos used to be the second biggest 40K seller behind Space Marines, now Tau and maybe a few others have overtaken them. They know they need to step up their game and I'm guessing they want to get everything else out of the way first to give Chaos the update they deserve.
I'm not in the know at all, just going off what various managers have said. Atia said we won't really see much Chaos in 2016 - Rubric Marines, maybe a Lord of Change - but 2017 could very well be the year of 40K Chaos.
The only reason the basic Chaos Marine kit rates that high is because you need it as the base to build almost every singe PA unit in the army bar Possessed, 'Zerkers & the jump pack units!
Chaos Marines, Chosen, Havocs, Noise Marines, 1kSons, Plaguemarines... ALL of them are typically based around/converted from, that one single kit.
That will tend to heavily skew the results. Overall it's an ancient kit with bad detailing and that's full of missing options.
Granted, it's still in much better shape than the utterly useless gakfest of a kit that's called 'Chaos Terminators'.
Sounds like a good reason why GW fails. They fail to understand their market or what it's like to be a customer and because of that fail to sell.
So yeah they basically don't know why some things are doing so well or why they're not. Still betting 'total war: warhammer' succeeding will make them somehow think 'age of sigmar' worked a year after it should have and people just randomly showed up to buy their stuff even though the truth is the video game probably helped gain sales.
At this point I have next to no faith with GW. There are armies they care next to nothing about 'sisters', 'dark eldar' (to an extent), chaos marines and probably some melee horde armies. Course then there was warhammer fantasy which they murdered. So ready to leave GW games for good. Just unsure if I can follow through with it. Even then I dunno what game I'd move on to.
-----
On the subject of out of date chaos models keep in mind fantasy had more out of date models. Half the skaven line was ugly as sin with monkey faced models. I can't tell you how ugly censer bearers were. Basically all the specialist units were garbage (aesthetically) as well as some heroes and weapons teams.
-----
Saddest part of why some of these armies are unpopular is because the suck in the game and are out of date. A lot of really ugly models have been bought in droves just because their rules were stupid good. But I mean hey GW sees all it's profit off of painters right? I mean why else would some really potent (gameplay-wise) ugly models get so many buys? GW is so out of touch with reality. If people only went for looks dark eldar would be insanely popular esp. that voidraven bomber. Would you believe at the only GW in Michigan there's a void raven bomber that has sat vacant on the shelf for months if not over a year. The plastic wrap on it isn't even good looking anymore. Keep in mind this was the brand new model dark eldar got even though the old codex had it but never had a model for it and it hasn't been touched.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/01/02 17:01:35
The reason the Chaos Marine faction has been neglected for so long has many, many facets I think, and I think it does have something to do with the fact that the Chaos faction in general is pretty old model-wise. I would take it even further, though, and say that the reason it's been taking so long is that Chaos is the codex that's been hit hardest by the general change in tone of the setting in general.
Back in the day, Chaos Space Marines really were the "cool marines", because of the spikes and stuff, which went well with what the average 40k-fan was like at the time. More so than now, 40k was known as a "heavy metal" universe, with lots of cool, but not at all sensible stuff going on, and that's especially noticable in the Chaos faction. The Legions are based around several different kinds of "metal" cultures (decay and despair for Death Guard, drugs and rock and roll for Emperors Children, so forth), so the over-the-top goofy evilness fitted right in. Combine that with some more interesting rules in comparison to the more traditional Space Marines, it's no wonder that Chaos Marines where cooler and more liked.
Recently, the 40k setting, and therefor it's fanbase, has changed quite a bit. Nowadays the heavy metal aspect of the setting has been toned down or almost removed, replaced by a focus on a more "epic" feel, in the sense that the setting is now seen as one big story, going from the Horus Heresy and until now, following individual factions and characters and their interactions. In that sense, the current 40k setting seems more like other large settings, like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, with several actors at one time, but in one big storyline. This effect isvery noticable in most factions with newer models, since they are mostly now introduced as a new weapon or troop invented for a new war somewhere, or as an expansion to the lore of a faction. This is where the Chaos Marines cannot fit in anymore - Chaos Space Marines was and is a faction based on a theme, and not so much lore, which means that, not only does the faction seem disjointed and overly chaotic and random, it feels lackluster in comparison to other, more developed factions. Where factions like Tyranids and Necrons went from expies of popular geeky films to become actual full-fledged factions in their own right, Chaos Space Marines are still just in-universe heavy metal versions of the more developed Space Marines.
It's not all bad, though - to make up for this, and to add more flavour to the Chaos Space Marine lore, Forge World are developing the Horus Heresy, which is essentially Chaos Space Marines: Genesis: Origins: Rise of the Chaos Legions in multiple media format. It's a story almost exclusively dedicated to fleshing out the fall of the faction in general, which is a great thing, since it was always a part of the lore, but deliberatly kept in the dark. This is a really good, and extremely rare thing for a faction to have, but it presents another problem: The 30k Chaos Legions have a lot of new flavour, which takes the old "heavy metal" Chaos Marines and makes their fall sensible and realistic, so we, as fans of the faction, can put ourselves into the minds and actions of them - In fact, I didn't even like Chaos Marines before I read about the HH lore, which really expanded upon their plight. The lore humanizes them without making them sorry losers (so avoids the "But Anakin was actually kinda good all along, even if he killed 30 children" issue Star Wars had), which makes them fit in... But there's the issue. the 40k Chaos Marine faction is by no means even remotely humanized within their own lore, which goes well with "Heavy Metal" Marines, but does not go well with "Traitors for a Reason" Marines.
So here we are. We have a setting in which the current Chaos Marines does not fit in thematically anymore, with a background that is wildly different from what we already know from the current fluff, and models and rules that supports neither of all this. They're essentially in some sort of design-void, with no clear attachment to anything in the entire freaking setting, and that's a huge issue, an issue I believe GW is already working with. I don't think they've just thrown Chaos Marines to the wayside - After all, it is one of the main factions - I think they're working on them as we speak. More so than any other faction, though, Chaos Marines is a HUGE fukken piece of work to change and put up to speed, so it'll have to be done with both care and ambition. There's so many things to take into account: Back in the day, Obliterators might have made people go "Wow, that guy's been mutated into a living arsenal! That's metal as hell!", but what about now? Would that be cool to people now? Would it fit into the current 40k setting at all?
The visual desing needs major work too. The "spiky marines" look has been critizised for years now, and it has to change, but to what? More deamon-like designs? More ancient stuff? Maybe something third? No one can really say. The lore that was supposed give them the important cues as to what a Chaos Marine looks like doesn't exist, since all was needed back then was to say that it was an evil marine with a noise gun, and then no more questions was asked. This extends to the lore in general - the current 40k lore demands that whatever you do and decide for a faction can be explained at least to some extend, and NOTHING in the Chaos Space Marine faction was ever explained in this manner. How did they decide upon how to attack some place? How did they get their weapons and ammunition? How did they get their gods' favour? Who cares! They were metal, damnit, it didn't need to make sense! But now it does, and so Chaos Marines seem really weak and confused, since all other armies have been given the full treatment to make them into the kind of armies the lore explains them as being. In comparison, Chaos Space Marines are smaller armies of Space Marines, with worse guns, older equipment, less ammunition, dicipline and auxillary assistance, but with Chaos. That's seriously frail.
I believe the Chaos Space Marines will get their treatment one of these days, but it'll take some time to get there. New special weapons (did I smell Volkite?), new models, more expansive fluff that ties into the established background, the works. Perhaps in some sort of "Black Crusade" event, sorta like the ongoing Damocles Crusade.
2016/01/02 22:14:16
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
GW will make you a new codex, just wait, and you will all still hate it because thats what CSM players do.
Demonkin codex? "i hate khorne they're soo stupid wheres my tzeench or malalalalala kin codex?"
be patient. i don't see sisters players on here every week drowing a tread in their tears.
All two of them?
No, but really, Chaos players have a right to complain. They have the worst codex competitively and also fluffy wise.
Fluff wise? how? you have the entire heresy as your history, aswell as a pretty well written codex story wise. you know who has gak fluff? tau, shittiest.
is you codex gak? sure it's hardly toptier but there are numerous ways to supplement it and increase your army power.
want better vehicles? IA14
want a walker that's way better then a Imperial Knight? Kytan, FW.
ally demons for pysker domination.
want to have a fluffy army? khorne demonkin. seems to do well in every event i've seen it played in. looks legit fun to play too.
want to ally guard for traitors? IA14.
and the "i shouldnt have to buy FW" argument is null. "other" ways of getting these rules and or models exsist.
or you could just quit the game and take the crying down a bit
2016/01/02 22:32:45
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
GW will make you a new codex, just wait, and you will all still hate it because thats what CSM players do.
Demonkin codex? "i hate khorne they're soo stupid wheres my tzeench or malalalalala kin codex?"
be patient. i don't see sisters players on here every week drowing a tread in their tears.
All two of them?
No, but really, Chaos players have a right to complain. They have the worst codex competitively and also fluffy wise.
Fluff wise? how? you have the entire heresy as your history, aswell as a pretty well written codex story wise. you know who has gak fluff? tau, shittiest.
is you codex gak? sure it's hardly toptier but there are numerous ways to supplement it and increase your army power.
want better vehicles? IA14
want a walker that's way better then a Imperial Knight? Kytan, FW.
ally demons for pysker domination.
want to have a fluffy army? khorne demonkin. seems to do well in every event i've seen it played in. looks legit fun to play too.
want to ally guard for traitors? IA14.
and the "i shouldnt have to buy FW" argument is null. "other" ways of getting these rules and or models exsist.
or you could just quit the game and take the crying down a bit
So to make the csm codex not garbage, you must ally in everything else available to prop up the 2 cultist min units and 60pt Hq from the csm codex you have left?
Sure I will just go ahead and stop playing csm all together since that is the next logical step to take.
3000 Points Tzeentch
2016/01/02 22:44:41
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
GW will make you a new codex, just wait, and you will all still hate it because thats what CSM players do.
Demonkin codex? "i hate khorne they're soo stupid wheres my tzeench or malalalalala kin codex?"
be patient. i don't see sisters players on here every week drowing a tread in their tears.
All two of them?
No, but really, Chaos players have a right to complain. They have the worst codex competitively and also fluffy wise.
Fluff wise? how? you have the entire heresy as your history, aswell as a pretty well written codex story wise. you know who has gak fluff? tau, shittiest.
is you codex gak? sure it's hardly toptier but there are numerous ways to supplement it and increase your army power.
want better vehicles? IA14
want a walker that's way better then a Imperial Knight? Kytan, FW.
ally demons for pysker domination.
want to have a fluffy army? khorne demonkin. seems to do well in every event i've seen it played in. looks legit fun to play too.
want to ally guard for traitors? IA14.
and the "i shouldnt have to buy FW" argument is null. "other" ways of getting these rules and or models exsist.
or you could just quit the game and take the crying down a bit
So to make the csm codex not garbage, you must ally in everything else available to prop up the 2 cultist min units and 60pt Hq from the csm codex you have left?
Sure I will just go ahead and stop playing csm all together since that is the next logical step to take.
The ally matrix exsists for a reason.
2016/01/02 22:50:27
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
The chaos fluff doesn't fit the rules. Khorne berzerkers = scariest close combat units. however they are pretty gacky. Tzeentch sorcerers = masters of the secrets of sorcery....meh...they are ok. chaos space marines are veterans of thousands of years of non stop combat...they are worse than normal marines.
While they are singing "what a friend we have in the greater good", we are bringing the pain!
2016/01/02 22:54:06
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
Musashi363 wrote: The chaos fluff doesn't fit the rules. Khorne berzerkers = scariest close combat units. however they are pretty gacky. Tzeentch sorcerers = masters of the secrets of sorcery....meh...they are ok. chaos space marines are veterans of thousands of years of non stop combat...they are worse than normal marines.
Thats a pretty weak argument. It isn't even centric to just CSM.
When does the fluff ever 100% of the time reflect every single unit in the codex?
every argument i see from CSM players turns into "why am i not OP!?" or "remember 3.5!!" sorry no.
2016/01/02 23:14:36
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
Musashi363 wrote: The chaos fluff doesn't fit the rules. Khorne berzerkers = scariest close combat units. however they are pretty gacky. Tzeentch sorcerers = masters of the secrets of sorcery....meh...they are ok. chaos space marines are veterans of thousands of years of non stop combat...they are worse than normal marines.
Thats a pretty weak argument. It isn't even centric to just CSM.
When does the fluff ever 100% of the time reflect every single unit in the codex?
every argument i see from CSM players turns into "why am i not OP!?" or "remember 3.5!!" sorry no.
What argument are you reading where chaos players say they want to be OP?
The only argument is "we want flavour, like what 3.5 had".
Current book doesn't do heresy vets very well, it doesn't do recently turned to chaos very well, it doesn't even do heavily invested in chaos very well.
I could care less about the power level, if the chaos codex had 1 fifth the flavour of the regular marine book, I'd be much happier.
Brb learning to play.
2016/01/02 23:23:50
Subject: Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
I'm not a CSM player but this is not a real answer. yes it's nice that chaos has other options via forgeword and allies, but you can't negate that an army is weak by saying use units from other armies and books. At that point why even play CSM if the codex is that weak.
2016/01/02 23:30:07
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
Musashi363 wrote: The chaos fluff doesn't fit the rules. Khorne berzerkers = scariest close combat units. however they are pretty gacky. Tzeentch sorcerers = masters of the secrets of sorcery....meh...they are ok. chaos space marines are veterans of thousands of years of non stop combat...they are worse than normal marines.
Thats a pretty weak argument. It isn't even centric to just CSM.
When does the fluff ever 100% of the time reflect every single unit in the codex?
every argument i see from CSM players turns into "why am i not OP!?" or "remember 3.5!!" sorry no.
What argument are you reading where chaos players say they want to be OP?
The only argument is "we want flavour, like what 3.5 had".
Current book doesn't do heresy vets very well, it doesn't do recently turned to chaos very well, it doesn't even do heavily invested in chaos very well.
I could care less about the power level, if the chaos codex had 1 fifth the flavour of the regular marine book, I'd be much happier.
Exactly. When I said the rules don't match the fluff, I meant stuff like Tzeentch suck at magic. Not "They're not OP!" But they just really suck at it. Zerkers, close combat specialists, suck at what they're supposed to do.
But even worse, the codex fails to represent Chaos in any kind of accurate or interesting way.
It doesn't represent legions.
It doesn't represent recently turned renegades.
So, power level, the codex sucks.
If you're not into power levels, then the fluff should matter.
But it fails to do that too.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
2016/01/02 23:31:38
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
Musashi363 wrote: The chaos fluff doesn't fit the rules. Khorne berzerkers = scariest close combat units. however they are pretty gacky. Tzeentch sorcerers = masters of the secrets of sorcery....meh...they are ok. chaos space marines are veterans of thousands of years of non stop combat...they are worse than normal marines.
Thats a pretty weak argument. It isn't even centric to just CSM.
When does the fluff ever 100% of the time reflect every single unit in the codex?
every argument i see from CSM players turns into "why am i not OP!?" or "remember 3.5!!" sorry no.
Obvious Troll is obvious. Try a bit harder next time.
2016/01/05 03:56:30
Subject: Re:Random thought about why no Chaos Codex -- NOT trolling
The reason the Chaos Marine faction has been neglected for so long has many, many facets I think, and I think it does have something to do with the fact that the Chaos faction in general is pretty old model-wise. I would take it even further, though, and say that the reason it's been taking so long is that Chaos is the codex that's been hit hardest by the general change in tone of the setting in general.
Back in the day, Chaos Space Marines really were the "cool marines", because of the spikes and stuff, which went well with what the average 40k-fan was like at the time. More so than now, 40k was known as a "heavy metal" universe, with lots of cool, but not at all sensible stuff going on, and that's especially noticable in the Chaos faction. The Legions are based around several different kinds of "metal" cultures (decay and despair for Death Guard, drugs and rock and roll for Emperors Children, so forth), so the over-the-top goofy evilness fitted right in. Combine that with some more interesting rules in comparison to the more traditional Space Marines, it's no wonder that Chaos Marines where cooler and more liked.
Recently, the 40k setting, and therefor it's fanbase, has changed quite a bit. Nowadays the heavy metal aspect of the setting has been toned down or almost removed, replaced by a focus on a more "epic" feel, in the sense that the setting is now seen as one big story, going from the Horus Heresy and until now, following individual factions and characters and their interactions. In that sense, the current 40k setting seems more like other large settings, like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, with several actors at one time, but in one big storyline. This effect isvery noticable in most factions with newer models, since they are mostly now introduced as a new weapon or troop invented for a new war somewhere, or as an expansion to the lore of a faction. This is where the Chaos Marines cannot fit in anymore - Chaos Space Marines was and is a faction based on a theme, and not so much lore, which means that, not only does the faction seem disjointed and overly chaotic and random, it feels lackluster in comparison to other, more developed factions. Where factions like Tyranids and Necrons went from expies of popular geeky films to become actual full-fledged factions in their own right, Chaos Space Marines are still just in-universe heavy metal versions of the more developed Space Marines.
It's not all bad, though - to make up for this, and to add more flavour to the Chaos Space Marine lore, Forge World are developing the Horus Heresy, which is essentially Chaos Space Marines: Genesis: Origins: Rise of the Chaos Legions in multiple media format. It's a story almost exclusively dedicated to fleshing out the fall of the faction in general, which is a great thing, since it was always a part of the lore, but deliberatly kept in the dark. This is a really good, and extremely rare thing for a faction to have, but it presents another problem: The 30k Chaos Legions have a lot of new flavour, which takes the old "heavy metal" Chaos Marines and makes their fall sensible and realistic, so we, as fans of the faction, can put ourselves into the minds and actions of them - In fact, I didn't even like Chaos Marines before I read about the HH lore, which really expanded upon their plight. The lore humanizes them without making them sorry losers (so avoids the "But Anakin was actually kinda good all along, even if he killed 30 children" issue Star Wars had), which makes them fit in... But there's the issue. the 40k Chaos Marine faction is by no means even remotely humanized within their own lore, which goes well with "Heavy Metal" Marines, but does not go well with "Traitors for a Reason" Marines.
So here we are. We have a setting in which the current Chaos Marines does not fit in thematically anymore, with a background that is wildly different from what we already know from the current fluff, and models and rules that supports neither of all this. They're essentially in some sort of design-void, with no clear attachment to anything in the entire freaking setting, and that's a huge issue, an issue I believe GW is already working with. I don't think they've just thrown Chaos Marines to the wayside - After all, it is one of the main factions - I think they're working on them as we speak. More so than any other faction, though, Chaos Marines is a HUGE fukken piece of work to change and put up to speed, so it'll have to be done with both care and ambition. There's so many things to take into account: Back in the day, Obliterators might have made people go "Wow, that guy's been mutated into a living arsenal! That's metal as hell!", but what about now? Would that be cool to people now? Would it fit into the current 40k setting at all?
The visual desing needs major work too. The "spiky marines" look has been critizised for years now, and it has to change, but to what? More deamon-like designs? More ancient stuff? Maybe something third? No one can really say. The lore that was supposed give them the important cues as to what a Chaos Marine looks like doesn't exist, since all was needed back then was to say that it was an evil marine with a noise gun, and then no more questions was asked. This extends to the lore in general - the current 40k lore demands that whatever you do and decide for a faction can be explained at least to some extend, and NOTHING in the Chaos Space Marine faction was ever explained in this manner. How did they decide upon how to attack some place? How did they get their weapons and ammunition? How did they get their gods' favour? Who cares! They were metal, damnit, it didn't need to make sense! But now it does, and so Chaos Marines seem really weak and confused, since all other armies have been given the full treatment to make them into the kind of armies the lore explains them as being. In comparison, Chaos Space Marines are smaller armies of Space Marines, with worse guns, older equipment, less ammunition, dicipline and auxillary assistance, but with Chaos. That's seriously frail.
I believe the Chaos Space Marines will get their treatment one of these days, but it'll take some time to get there. New special weapons (did I smell Volkite?), new models, more expansive fluff that ties into the established background, the works. Perhaps in some sort of "Black Crusade" event, sorta like the ongoing Damocles Crusade.
I agree with your analysis right up to the part where you conclude that GW doesn't know what to do with CSM and that they will fix it. I really get the feeling that the GW studio proper are just fine with CSM as they are now. Sure CSM don't make a lot of sense if you look too closely, but here's the thing - you're not supposed to look too closely. They're Saturday morning cartoon villians. Does Cobra Commander make sense? No, and neither do CSM. The point is, we're not supposed to care.
Now sure FW gives the traitor legions a lot of character, but their stuff doesn't read like a Saturday morning cartoon. If you look at the stuff from the GW studio proper they gloss over all that Chaos legion stuff, making sure to immediately hand waive it away stressing how the intervening years have eradicated any individuality and character they may have had (in Saturday morning cartoonland only goodguys are allowed individuality and character).
Bottom line, GW just doesn't care about badguys - and neither should you.
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
