Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2016/01/04 00:12:50
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
So. Learning french, I am. If your initial reaction to the subject was "why are you posting that on Dakka?" I agree.
But I'm going to have a punt anyway
I'm currently attempting to learn french without anyone else knowing (so I'll put it on the internet to keep it safe...), and this means that for the moment, speaking is restricted to whispering to myself most of the time, and I can't stick labels on everything. I'm sort of winging it - learning grammatical rules, stitching vocabulary together, and reading/listening to french. I've been changing all of my PC games to run in french, so it's getting unavoidable at this stage (good). What I'm looking for now are french podcasts that I can play in the bacground when I'm doing stuff, and french movies with english subtitles. Do you know where I could find this sort of stuff, and do you have any helpful learning tips?
Major things I've learned:
Spoiler:
>The subject of a sentence is key, if I misidentify it, I'm screwed.
>Everything is either masculine or feminine, and you get the gender of everything from the subject.
>There are a lot more ways of selecting who or what you are referring to than in english.
>My keyboard is dying, and I have to write everything several times to get it right.
>Some words end in an "s" or a "z". These usually aren't pronounced, unless they're followed by a related word beginning with a vowel, in which case they are pronounced, as a connecting sound.
>I have issues with "r" sounds, despite successfully identifying how to say it.
>I can't directly translate some things into french, as the french language understands it differently, due to linguistic structure and cultural references in both languages.
>There *is* a correct form of French (France), and I should learn it.
French is pretty easy to learn. The best way is by ordering self-study books. Altough that may not be best if you are trying to keep it a secret for some reason or another.
Also, if you want to learn French from movies, would it not be better to watch them with French subtitles? That is how we do it in school.
Here is a site with French-subtitled French movies: http://www.filmfra.com/
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2016/01/04 02:01:04
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Good luck learning one of the most horrendously irritating languages there is to learn (Although Chinese is pretty fethed up too, and don't get me started about eastern Europe)
First thing to learn : Exceptions, exceptions everywhere. You can't learn French if you're not practicing, as most rules have a lot of exceptions or different forms that don't really make any sense (Like verbs groups. First group : ending by -er. Second one : ending by -ir. Third one : Basically everything else, and you basically have to learn how to conjugate each of those verbs on an individual basis).
Then there's silent letters and contextual meaning, with sentences like "Les poules couvent au couvent.".
Nevertheless, have fun
EDIT :
>I can't directly translate some things into french, as the french language understands it differently, due to linguistic structure and cultural references in both languages.
That's my main issue with English
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 05:55:10
Scientia potentia est.
In girum imus nocte ecce et consumimur igni.
2016/01/04 07:11:41
Subject: Re:Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
>I can't directly translate some things into french, as the french language understands it differently, due to linguistic structure and cultural references in both languages.
That's my main issue with English
That is pretty much everyone's issue where a significant cultural divide exists. This is why non-native speakers tend to be overly formal.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2016/01/04 07:42:57
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
First thing to learn : Exceptions, exceptions everywhere. You can't learn French if you're not practicing, as most rules have a lot of exceptions or different forms that don't really make any sense (Like verbs groups. First group : ending by -er. Second one : ending by -ir. Third one : Basically everything else, and you basically have to learn how to conjugate each of those verbs on an individual basis).
Fun things happen when I realise there's something like three or four words with the exact same definition, but cannot be used interchangeably. I just gotta keep trying!
Bonne chance et bon courage à toi dans tes efforts d'apprentissage ^^
Breotan wrote:
Do your podcast searches using french words, not english ones. Go to french (country) version of web sites such as youtube or BBC.
Be careful : Although the foreigners make efforts to translate in a better way the french language into their own one, the reciprocity is not the same in France : in general, french people are very bad in languages and our media have bad habits : for an example, a french journalist would prefer translate the general idea of a conversation between Obama/Brown and Hollande instead of translating exactly... And for the movies, it's worst !!
I try to keep learning my english (speaking/writing/reading on english fora for an example ^^') and when I see a movie, I jump in OV with french subtitles... The difference is so high with "The Lord of the Rings"...
As an aside look in Youtube for "Les Rois Maudits" The Story is good, the accent is excellent for hearing proper french. Just try to find the 1972 version. It's acting is theater like and you can just listen to the dialogue without paying much attention to the screen. A sample https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIdYCZJBwLk
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 11:23:03
You shouldn't be worried about the one bullet with your name on it, Boldric. You should be worried about the ones labelled "to whom it may concern"-from Blackadder goes Forth!
2016/01/04 13:23:56
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Try to listen to French music too. I don't know your tastes, but outside the "Classic" French singers and songwriters (Georges Brassens, Jacques Brel...), there is MC Solaar, the only rap artist I can like, even if I'm not really into rap music.
Scientia potentia est.
In girum imus nocte ecce et consumimur igni.
2016/01/04 13:38:24
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Hordini wrote: Why are you trying to learn it without anyone else knowing?
One does not simply be an Englishman and openly like anything French.
I know that feeling, Do you know how hard it is to openly learn russian and chat with your KGB friends as an american? The FBI have been super jelly ever since Putin gave me a balloon animal. They also don't like that I have this thing for secret documents and old soviet music. One of them came to my door and upon calling him comrade he became really upset. The FBI and the KGB have very different senses of humor it seems.
2016/01/04 14:52:03
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
konst80hummel wrote: As an aside look in Youtube for "Les Rois Maudits" The Story is good, the accent is excellent for hearing proper french. Just try to find the 1972 version. It's acting is theater like and you can just listen to the dialogue without paying much attention to the screen. A sample https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIdYCZJBwLk
Merci !
I've been using Elle me dit to pick out how spoken french can be a right bastard for me to get right - unfamiliar pacing, sounds that aren't written, sounds I'm unfamiliar with and some stuff being said rather quickly. It's been handy for getting my brain to separate sounds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 14:52:28
2016/01/04 17:38:07
Subject: Re:Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
LethalShade wrote: Good luck learning one of the most horrendously irritating languages there is to learn (Although Chinese is pretty fethed up too, and don't get me started about eastern Europe)
You haven't seen a difficult language until you have seen Hungarian
>I can't directly translate some things into french, as the french language understands it differently, due to linguistic structure and cultural references in both languages.
That's my main issue with English
For me too, I think that is the main issue with learning any foreign language.
I have found the best way to deal with it is just to read a huge lot of literature, and read popular culture stuff on the internet, and watch movies in the language you want to learn, so you see the different thought processes and cultural references of a different language in actual use. Practice is everything. A lot of practice... And if possible, live for a while in the country whose language you want to learn. Being forced to speak English daily in the UK for a year massively improved my understanding of English. Practising speaking is very important, you learn much more from it than from listening, reading or writing.
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2016/01/04 21:02:01
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Some sadistic person spoke of Brassens. You should know that Brassens is an amazing french songwriter. He just happen to use an incredibly vast and complex french vocabulary. So if you find it hard, it's normal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 21:02:29
2016/01/04 21:24:36
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Some sadistic person spoke of Brassens. You should know that Brassens is an amazing french songwriter. He just happen to use an incredibly vast and complex french vocabulary. So if you find it hard, it's normal.
For the exercise of it, I'm going to try to translate that, and find what I can learn from it. First couple of lines I'm getting as this:
Seul dans ma chambre un jour normal J'apprends dans les journaux que j' suis dans l'axe du mal {I’m in my bedroom as usual I’m told on the news I’m in the axis of evil}
If I'm getting that right, this is going to be fun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 21:51:14
2016/01/04 21:55:53
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Hi !
I came to Dakka to practice english, 'cause I'm french.
It's a good way to read and write a foreign language, since the subject is something I'm interested in. I prefer to read about models painting than stories about Bryan being in the kitchen. And the advantage is that it's real speaking, not formal school pre-made sentences.
Elle me dit! Awesome song.
A few other interesting songs of note:
C'est Moi - Marie-Mai
Celui - Colonel Reyel
I have had a bit of a rough time with French, took a few courses.
What is good/bad is I had my kids enrolled in full French school for a few years.
Mileage may differ but these points (found with no proper credit link whoops!) I felt were important as a guide to learning French:
Spoiler:
12. Always work with audio
Let’s start with one that many people don’t realise but is a key if you want to do more than just read novels or French magazines…
Written French and spoken French are almost 2 different languages. There are many silent letters, glidings, liaisons etc… and they are everywhere, including in verb conjugations and grammar. So you should always work with audio. Even when studying grammar, playing the audio will help you tremendously as you are going through the lesson.
11. Be in touch with your own learning style
Do you need to write? or do you need to listen? or do you need to read to learn things by heart?
Whatever the method you are using to learn French, make sure you adapt it to YOUR learning style.
10. Self studying is NOT for everybody
When it comes to learning languages, not everybody is the same. I’ve taught hundreds of students, and I can tell you from experience that some people have an easier time with languages than others.
It doesn’t mean that someone less gifted cannot learn, but it means that self studying is not for everybody. Some students need the expertise of a teacher to guide them through their studies, motivate them and find creative ways to explain the same point until it is understood.
9. Translate as little as possible
When you are a total beginner, some translation is going to occur but try as much as possible to avoid it.
Translating adds a huge step in the process of speaking (“Idea –> English –> French” versus just “idea –>French”).
It makes your brain waste time and energy, and will fool you into making a mistake when literal translation doesn’t work.
8. Link to images and facts, not English words
So if you don’t translate, what should you do?
Try as much as possible to link the new French vocabulary to images, situations, feelings and NOT English words.
For example, when learning “j’ai froid”, visualize that you are cold, bring up the feeling, not the English words “I – am – cold” – which anyway won’t work since we don’t use “I am”, but “I have” in French… And never change the English either – “ah, Ok, the French say “I have cold”… Imagine what it does for your brain:
“Brrrr” = “I am cold” = ” so….je… then être in je form…. je suis froid” oh yes but wait, the French don’t use “je suis” for that one… they use “I have cold” = ” so avoir…j’ai froid”….
It is MUCH simpler to link the feeling of cold or “brrrr” = “j’ai froid”.
If you are doing flashcards – which I strongly encourage you do – draw the word/situation whenever possible instead of writing English.
7. Beware of cognates
This is exactly why you should be particularly careful with cognates – words that are the same between the two languages.
Many students approach them thinking “ah, that’s easy, I know that one”. But then when they need to use that word, they don’t remember it’s the same as in English… Furthermore, cognates always have a different pronunciation, and your English brain is going to fight saying that word the French way.
Finally, there are many false cognates: words that exist in both languages but don’t have the same meanings. So, cognates need more of your attention, not less.
6. Learn in sentences
Learn the new French vocabulary in a sentence. Like that you will learn “in context”, and you’ll already have a series of words that go well together handy for your next French conversation!
5. Make your sentences close to your own world
Instead of writing down “Le chien est noir” (the dog is black), look for a black dog you personally know, and write “le chien de Peter est noir, Fluffy est noir”.
Your brain will remember a sentence describing a truth, or a memory, much longer than it will remember a sentence of made up facts.
4. Group the related vocabulary together
Similarly to the concept of learning within the context of a sentence. Use larger flashcards and on the same flashcard, write all related French vocabulary as you come across it. You’ll get to the info faster if you have memorised it all together.
3. Don’t try to learn everything = prioritize
Often, to make learning more fun, we try to present a text, a story. At least I do, as much as possible. If your memory is great, go ahead and memorize everything!
But if it’s not the case, PRIORITIZE: what words in this story are YOU likely to use? Focus on learning these first, the rest can wait.
2. Study French regularly, for a short time, not all in one sitting
Otherwise, just like the man of the picture, you’ll exhaust yourself.
Spending 15 minutes a day learning French – not multitasking but with 100% of your attention – will get you better results than two hours during the weekend with the kids playing in the background.
1. Review – repetition is the key!
This is probably the number one mistake students make. They concentrate on learning new material, and forget to review the older one.
Rule of thumb: for each hour spending learning new things, you need to spend minimum one hour reviewing older things.
Ah, some very handy stuff indeed! I hadn't thought about the translation issue before, knowing that will certainly help. I get bored a lot, and learning french and things about french culture is new and exciting to me - so any time I get bored, I start attempting to gain as much information about these things as I can - listening to french music in the background, setting YouTube to french (just found that out), looking up french history and cultural differences etc.
The idea being that the more I know about french-related things, the better.
Now I just need to find an efficient way of making visual flashcards rather than translatory ones. I've been making sets of flashcards covering what I'm informed are the most common and regularly used french words - mostly things that make sentences work, and general concept references. Currently got around 150 of them, and I'm planning to expand on that.
Learning in sudden and unregulated bursts seems to work for me, combined with *a lot* of listening.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 23:52:10
2016/01/05 01:18:14
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
If you want to check your pronunciation or have a conversation in French, we could talk over Skype.
If you are looking for interesting French movies, I can give you some pointers: Dobermann, Rubber, Martyrs, Les Parasites, La cité de la peur, …
(Some of those might be very violent, disturbing or nonsensical ^^'…)
M_Stress wrote: Some sadistic person spoke of Brassens. You should know that Brassens is an amazing french songwriter. He just happen to use an incredibly vast and complex french vocabulary. So if you find it hard, it's normal.
Brassens? That's nothing. Let me introduce you to Bobby Lapointe .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2016/01/05 01:33:34
Subject: Re:Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Ci vous pouvez depense l'argent, pensez d'achat la programme "Rosetta Stone". Ou, si vous etez sept annes, allez au Canada. Prendez les courses en Francais pour votre tresieme a douzieme anees.
C'est que j'ai fait, and je peut communique seize annees après mon dernier classe. Pas bon, pas vitte, et avec beaucoup defautes, mais je peut vive ci je suis dans Quebec.
Bon chance!
2016/01/05 04:48:46
Subject: Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Selym wrote: I like how "tuer" and "mourir" are in the top 150 most used French words, English places terms like these in the 600's.
Fact of the day: 60% of the English language is French in origin.
Every single English word that ends in TION is exactly the same in French, with one or two exceptions.
All those English words that you're familiar with, for example, or should I say pour example
well, you already know them.
From the top of my head: animal, mineral, certain, table, comfortable, introduction, question, accent, and so on, are the same in French. Imagine that!
English words that end in ry, only need a minor change to make them French: history becomes Histoire, necessary, neccessaire, and so on. Forgive the spellings, but the point remains.
English words ending in ICAL, such as economic, transform into Economique! Amazing!
My point is, you already know a ton of French words.
Nah, they've already lost two referendums - that shipped sailed a long time ago.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 11:30:34
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/01/05 11:58:32
Subject: Re:Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Awkwardly, most of the shared words are pronounced or spelled differently to a degree, and some look the same but have different meanings
I gotta pay attention to those.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found a vocab trainer on my phone's app store - it has images and audio in addition to the translation. I'm getting through it surprisingly quickly. It does words in two blocks of 14, followed by a test. Words get repeated in multiple pairs of groups so that they are remembered. I think it also moves on to phrases in other sections.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 12:03:38
2016/01/05 12:09:12
Subject: Re:Learning French (In a wargaming forum, surely not?)
Awkwardly, most of the shared words are pronounced or spelled differently to a degree, and some look the same but have different meanings
I gotta pay attention to those.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found a vocab trainer on my phone's app store - it has images and audio in addition to the translation. I'm getting through it surprisingly quickly. It does words in two blocks of 14, followed by a test. Words get repeated in multiple pairs of groups so that they are remembered. I think it also moves on to phrases in other sections.
But don't forget the main point - you're already familiar with most French words, which is a huge advantage.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
.
