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Models may only lose one hull point due to armor breach per phase. Damage results past the first glancing or penetrating hit apply normally, including hull points lost to multiple Immobilized results or Explodes! results.

Suddenly vehicles are attritioning like they should, pieces falling off or breaking without becoming wrecks the first time a scatbike looks at them funny. And the walkers everyone likes to malign? Walkers are TERRIFYING in close combat.

Of course it's not perfect, it throws superheavies a little out of whack. To wit I'd give them their own damage table:

1-3: No Effect
4-6: Lose one Hull Point
7+: Lose 1d3 Hull Points

Hmm, so, given that, no wrecking a vehicle in one shooting phase unless you can Explode it, or sand off HP with multi-immobilizes. OK, I could go for that, especially since there are still ways to get it done, if you really need to.

It makes anti-tank Witchfire and Vector Strikes more important and interesting, for one, and for another, it almost justifies how hard it can be to get a Walker into melee - since once it's there, you're pretty much not gonna kill it quickly without melta bombs or similar.

So I just want to be clear, if i send 5 squads of melta veterans up to a tank, and fire the 10 melta guns, and get 8 pens, but roll poorly on the result, no immobilized or explodes, it still only takes 1 HP damage?

 pumaman1 wrote:
So I just want to be clear, if i send 5 squads of melta veterans up to a tank, and fire the 10 melta guns, and get 8 pens, but roll poorly on the result, no immobilized or explodes, it still only takes 1 HP damage?

The way I took it was it looses 1 hull point, but all effects ( shaken, stunned, destroyed, maybe immobilized) all still effect the vehicle, it just doesn't pop immediately.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
So I just want to be clear, if i send 5 squads of melta veterans up to a tank, and fire the 10 melta guns, and get 8 pens, but roll poorly on the result, no immobilized or explodes, it still only takes 1 HP damage?

The way I took it was it looses 1 hull point, but all effects ( shaken, stunned, destroyed, maybe immobilized) all still effect the vehicle, it just doesn't pop immediately.

Exactly. Only the first pen/glance counts for hull points, though you can still destroy a vehicle in one turn with repeated immobilize/weapon destroyed results or (obviously) an Explodes!

I fell like the pendulum is swinging too far the other way. maybe glancing hits cannot do any more than 1 hull point a phase, or roll a die for glancing hits, and on a 5+ they do a HP, representing hitting hard enough to dent, maim the operation of the tank. but 4- they do just glance off *ping*

I fell like penetrating hits should be devastating, they are defeating the armor in a usually catastrophic way. they have overcome the armor.

Tanks would get across the board and squat on objectives if it was harder to take them out with glances.

pumaman1 wrote:I fell like the pendulum is swinging too far the other way. maybe glancing hits cannot do any more than 1 hull point a phase, or roll a die for glancing hits, and on a 5+ they do a HP, representing hitting hard enough to dent, maim the operation of the tank. but 4- they do just glance off *ping*

I fell like penetrating hits should be devastating, they are defeating the armor in a usually catastrophic way. they have overcome the armor.

That's what the roll on the damage table represents, penetrating armor and dealing damage to the juicy bits inside. It also serves to differentiate them from MCs - A monstrous creature performs at full effectiveness until it dies, but it can be killed in one turn, whereas a vehicle lasts longer but loses effectiveness.

ShaneTB wrote:Tanks would get across the board and squat on objectives if it was harder to take them out with glances.

This might be a problem, but it's a better one than '90% of vehicles are useless'. Also remember if a vehicle is closer to your side of the board you can assault it, allowing you to do two 'easy' hull points a turn.

Something I might have to look at, though, is Jink. It might be too strong with tougher machines.

At the moment I use tanks for transport to get onto objectives, minimise rapid fire and shelter from ignores cover weapons.

I understand they can pop but at least the unit makes it to turn 2 (or even further with a bit of luck on your side).

I think the only other solution makes them too immune to glancing.

The idea glancing is its all hits that do not punch a whole through the tank. that includes hits strong enough to dent and could in theory immobilize by jamming the treads etc.

Ravern, if i get 2 pen results, i should get 2 hp off the vehicle. as stated if its not explodes, i'll only ever get 1 hp, whether by glance or by pen. I feel like if i melt 4 man sized holes into your land raider, it should be more than 1 hull point. inside those tanks, there is pretty much only juicy bits, fuel, ammo, machine spirit, or crew, you couldn't miss

Glancing i am more than willing to let be up to 1 HP per phase can be taken.

Remember that if you immobilize a tank that's already immobilized, it would lose another hull point. Under this system it still does. Also, IIRC, if you get a Weapon Destroyed result on a vehicle with no weapons left it counts as an Immobilized result.

If you get four pens with AP1 (assuming a Land Raider as mentioned here, so not Open-Topped), that's 1.33 Explodes! results on average. The odds that you won't kill that Land Raider are pretty low even if you only peeled off 1HP. And if you don't, it's not shooting worth a darn (snap firing, if it has any guns left), not moving (probably immobilized, but almost certainly at least stunned). If it doesn't go down, that's pure luck.

Now, that said, it gets a lot stickier when you're hitting it with weapons worse than AP1 (unless they're D).

Also, this makes anti-tank assault and anti-tank Witchfire more interesting: you could take off an HP in each of the Psychic, Shooting and Assault phases. (Movement too, with Ramming or if you have something that can Vector Strike)

But, maybe this does make vehicles a little too hard to kill. I had another idea regarding that: what if a vehicle weren't instantly wrecked when it runs out of Hull Points?

Instead, it would become Crippled. A Crippled vehicle can only move Combat Speed and can only fire Snap Shots if it moves at all. If it suffers a glancing hit, then on a 4+ it suffers a Crew Shaken result, on a 1-3 it suffers a Crew Stunned instead. If it suffers a penetrating hit, the vehicle is instantly wrecked (unless the hit causes an Explodes, in which case the vehicle explodes instead). While Crippled, a vehicle may not Jink, but may use any other saves it is entitled to. A Crippled flyer must immediately test as if it had suffered an Immobilized result (Crash and Burn on a 1-2), and is considered to have Locked Velocity at 18". Should a Crippled vehicle regain a hull point by any means, it once again functions normally at the beginning of the controlling player's next Movement Phase after the hull point is regained.

I only protest because i roll very under average, so making a land raider only able to take up to 1 hp per turn (as tau, or many AM lists) makes it for all intents and purposes invincible. because my ranged fire doesn't get extra dice pen, and my melta suits will be destroyed the turn after by the occupants because i only do 1 hp of damage

for example how much under statistic i roll, 3 crisis suits with 2 metlas each with 2 marker lights (bs5) will only hit 3 shots, and roll under a 6 combined on 2 of them. and this isn't just it happened 1 time, this is how most my rolls go.

 pumaman1 wrote:
I only protest because i roll very under average, so making a land raider only able to take up to 1 hp per turn (as tau, or many AM lists) makes it for all intents and purposes invincible. because my ranged fire doesn't get extra dice pen, and my melta suits will be destroyed the turn after by the occupants because i only do 1 hp of damage

for example how much under statistic i roll, 3 crisis suits with 2 metlas each with 2 marker lights (bs5) will only hit 3 shots, and roll under a 6 combined on 2 of them. and this isn't just it happened 1 time, this is how most my rolls go.

"I roll really bad," is not a good basis for making changes on anything.

BUT the fact you are isolating entire factions that don't have reasonable assault or psychic phase does.

AND its not like AV 14 vehicles really need more resilience, and common lower armor vehicles are either designed to be fast or cheap as dirt *rhino*

 pumaman1 wrote:
BUT the fact you are isolating entire factions that don't have reasonable assault or psychic phase does.

AND its not like AV 14 vehicles really need more resilience, and common lower armor vehicles are either designed to be fast or cheap as dirt *rhino*

*Laughs* Are you playing 5th? Anything short of AV14 all round SH vehicles die easily these days. Rhinos? I kill them with Autocannons. Your a Tau player right? Use your S7 Missile Pod spam and blow them away. After all it wors on everything else.

AV 14 vehicles are junk now. D-weapons exist.

Rules on damaging vehicles should be based more on weapons'AP.
Weapon's strenght should be used to see if the hit is hard enough, then AP tell us if the armor was penetrated (AP=armour piercing?)

A way to represent this in rules may be:

Pen. Hit = roll a dice, if result is lower than AP the hit is considered a glancing hit. If equal or higher, roll on the actual
Damage chart.

Glancing = 1-4 shaken
5-6 stunned

Any stunned or worse result, vehicle looses 1 hp.

What do you think?

Ok, that's not terrible, though it's possibly too easy to make a vehicle useless.

Maybe make the glance chart as follows:

1-3: no effect
4: Structural damage, lose 1 HP
5-6: Crew Shaken, lose 1 HP

I think a Crew Stunned from a glance is somewhat too severe when you also have Hull Points. (Without Hull Points, it's necessary so that vehicles don't just beast-mode through storms of fire until they finally explode).

Or-
Subtract the AP from the Pen roll (- counts as 7).
Remove the AP1/2 bonuses (double-dippjng).

Table is now:
3+: Explodes!
2: Weapon Destroyed
1: Immobilised
0: Stunned
-1/-2: Shaken
-3 or less - no effect

Master of Ordinance: av 14 all around is super commonly played. Or run leman ruses in a star formation and have only front armor facing showing. And yes rhinos pop to auto cannons, but they also cost about as many points as getting something that can use an auto cannon.

The answer to "fixing" it is not to make the other side super broken op for and edition or 2, its make it balanced. low armor vehicles shuttle things around, but don't withstand even small arms fire that well (why us military retired the Humvee), big heavy armored things are slow, and take more dedicated anti armor to hurt it, but even a 50's era soviet rpg can pierce over 10 inches of solid steel.

pens need to say damaging. the armor has been breached, there is now shrapnel or superheated plasma or even more flying around the inside of the vehicle. glancing to death a vehicle, is the one that needs to be addressed the most.

It's also worth remembering that "glancing to death", in practice, also includes a lot of no-Explode pens. S6 against AV11, for example, half of the damaging hits are pens. S7, it's 66%.

So, it's a matter of balancing between two extremes: vehicles being immortal until you get an Explodes on them, and vehicles falling apart to spamguns. They're in a weird spot right now: if you run Trukks, Rhinos, etc, they just kinda fall apart because most weapons can hurt them, but back in 5th, they didn't die until you got an Explodes or Wrecked result, making people think they were too durable. AV14 all around doesn't go crunch to running out of HP all that often, because it's flat-out immune to everything below S8, but probably everyone who's ever run a Land Raider has a story about it getting smoked by a single snap-firing lascannon or similar before it can do anything.

So you end up with two problems: in 5e, transports were too durable and heavy stuff wasn't durable enough. In 7e, transports crumble and heavy stuff still dies to lucky shots way too often. But at the same time, single-shot AT weapons are really unreliable, while spamguns are too effective.

Small wonder a lot of folks think vehicles should just go to a T/W/Sv system like Infantry, eh? At least with Infantry you know what it probably takes to kill them.

I know, folks say that D makes high-armor vehicles garbage, but by the same measure, D makes everything garbage - the issue isn't exactly that D is better against vehicles than it is against Infantry, MCs, GCs and so forth. (Other than the cover problem, which is a problem.)

It is not only about D weapons. Haywire, gravcannon, are way too efficient in taking down AV 14 armour

I think vehicles should get an armor saving throw of some kind, or invuln saving throw.

I don't like that as soon as the weapon strength is strong enough to glance/pen there is no roll the defender gets to make to stop the damage.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Master of Ordinance: av 14 all around is super commonly played. Or run leman ruses in a star formation and have only front armor facing showing. And yes rhinos pop to auto cannons, but they also cost about as many points as getting something that can use an auto cannon.

The answer to "fixing" it is not to make the other side super broken op for and edition or 2, its make it balanced. low armor vehicles shuttle things around, but don't withstand even small arms fire that well (why us military retired the Humvee), big heavy armored things are slow, and take more dedicated anti armor to hurt it, but even a 50's era soviet rpg can pierce over 10 inches of solid steel.

pens need to say damaging. the armor has been breached, there is now shrapnel or superheated plasma or even more flying around the inside of the vehicle. glancing to death a vehicle, is the one that needs to be addressed the most.

Oh I agree that glances need addressing, seeing my Leman Russ killed by a spray of shots that cant even penetrate its armour. However keeping the frontal armour of a Leman Russ facing the enemy AT on a 6' board is nearly impossible.

The problem i see is that a number of armies have an inordinate amount of anti-tank weaponry. The imperium has access to Melta, lascannons, Melta Bombs and a number of other weapons that can destroy heavy armored vehicles easily. They also have a plethora of lesser strength weapons to take out mid to low armored vehicles.

The Eldar probably have the easiest/cheesiest way to remove vehicles, D weapons and lets not forget there AP 0 Firedragons.

So really the problem is that to many weapons exist right now that are specialized at removing vehicles from play and they can be gained rather cheaply. Melta weapons in general are to cheap, one could argue that they are cheap because of the short range of them but I would point out that more often then not those short range melta weapons are on fast vehicles/units or deep striking which negates the one negative aspect of the weapon.

So theres that. And then you run into other armies that have little in the way of anti armor. Orks and Tyrnids stick out to me specifically. Orks have a number of weapons that could be considered anti tank but realistically they suck. The best weapon the orks have at killing vehicles from range is the Loota's deff gunz. which is S7 Ap4. not bad but random shots teamed with BS2 means they are meh at best. Great at killing AV 10-12 but 13 is hard and 14 is invulnerable to it. Beyond that the only reasonably effective way the orks remove vehicles is with Tank bustas (No armor, have to be in an open topped vehicle to go anywhere) and Power Klaws which means you have to get into CC with the vehicle, bunch yourselves up and then next turn watch as flamers and ordinance destroys your squad.

So complaining aside I think the best way to solve this problem is to give vehicles an invulnerable save across the board. I know thats problematic because a number of vehicles already have invuls and that would weaken there worth. But realistically I don't understand why all my Walkers are basically worthless in this edition. (6 soon to be 12 Kanz, 2 Deff Dredz and a Morkanaut) Giving them a 5++ would help out a lot and a 4++ on my Dredz would be even better.

I like the idea, its another fix along the lines of just overly massing their HP i usually go for. Enables glancing to death to be a possibility but its not ideal.

Maybe AP1 weapons should ignore this rule though. Give AP1 that real anti-vehicle threat its suppose to have. And Destroyer obviously.

Also, remember guys, the weapons that were meant to take out a vehicle reliably were suppose to be an investment because theyre typically terrible at anything else. Melta bombs are useless against non vehicles or MCs, Melta guns are so-so since they hit hard but have gak for RoF and piss poor range, and i cant even think of a single AP1 weapon that has more than 1 RoF outside melee or supers (maybe some FW nonsuper i dont know about).
If people start massing Meltas to take out vehicles more reliably, then the same crap happens that already happens if they use a lot of meltas - if they face a low vehicle number list, the meltas are more of a hindrance than a help.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
BUT the fact you are isolating entire factions that don't have reasonable assault or psychic phase does.

AND its not like AV 14 vehicles really need more resilience, and common lower armor vehicles are either designed to be fast or cheap as dirt *rhino*

*Laughs* Are you playing 5th? Anything short of AV14 all round SH vehicles die easily these days. Rhinos? I kill them with Autocannons. Your a Tau player right? Use your S7 Missile Pod spam and blow them away. After all it wors on everything else.

Rhinos are 35 points, there are infantry models costing more then them. You can't expect to pay nothing and get a durable mobile bunker with heavy guns attached.

I've only been back into 40k for a few months (played 4 games so far, so still getting used to 7th) but would removing glancing hits altogether give them that little toughness boost that people seem to want? It would make armour values mean a little more, as you now have to roll higher in order to do damage. Also removes the risk of having your vehicles being glanced to death.

Also, if you wanted to reduce the odds of 1 shot kills on vehicles, you could increase the value of an explode result by 1, making it VERY hard, but still being able to immobilise/stun/destroy a weapon by e.g. clipping a track/wheel, etc.

Just get rid of the vehicle damage chart, remove glances, make ap2 cause d2 hull points and ap1 cause d3.

Tanks become harder to damage, but don't have saves. A melta can still one shot most tanks,

It nerfs things like scatter lasers, since glances aren't a thing anymore, and keeps anti vehicle weapons about the same in effectiveness.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
It is not only about D weapons. Haywire, gravcannon, are way too efficient in taking down AV 14 armour

And the problem is? Haywire is an EMP blast, it shouldn't matter how tough the armour is if its not shielded. Gravcannon uses the weight of the target, it should be wrecking the 10 ton Land Raider. D weapons are capable of levelling cities, why should they care what armour you have.