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Hey there. Recently, gw has released a new formation of vanguard vets + scouts where vets can charge out of deepstrike. It's worded in a way that it doesn't disallow from joining IC out of formation and still charging after deepstrike.

Those who are not familliar, here it is:


Also, VV squads re-roll charge ranges and don't loose attacks on multi-charges. So, we've got imperial bff going nuts 2-d turn most likely without scattering. And vets themselves have a ton of attacks with 5 ppm power weapons.

What are the most broken combos you can think of? Lib conclave + Sang priests + inquisition anyone?

Add more ICs that can deep strike.

Do you think is legal attaching a Sanguinary Priest to this formation? My doubt is if a unit (the Priest) that comes from a Faction that cannot use that Formation, may use the special rules granted by the Formation.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Do you think is legal attaching a Sanguinary Priest to this formation? My doubt is if a unit (the Priest) that comes from a Faction that cannot use that Formation, may use the special rules granted by the Formation.

This just got discussed why it works in YMDC http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/678568.page

Belial for scatterless deepstrike plus some fleshbane sword goodness?

My question is, would it work with the Skyhammer Annihilation Force? If Apocalypse is the name of the game, what about the Great Promenade of Exquisite Excess? Is it down to specific wording of the rule?

add a deepstriking captain who can get his warlord trait from there table so he can get deny's overwatch 1/6th of the time which is sick af

allied dark angels for a darkshroud to deny overwatch, perhaps in a land speeder support squadron. maybe allying the skyhammer orbital strikeforce as well as the firespear strike force. really clean house when you drop in

you can really build quite a list for drop armies around the killteam and have the killteam still be effective

Put beacons on the Skyhammer pods, have the scouts in storms running around your side of the field grabbing objectives.

If you can fit Sternguard in a first company task force on top of that, the pods count towards the unit total for -2 to Leadership.

Your Devastators are split into four units, and with their Gravcannons either concentrated if you are killing GCs with the bolters pinning infantry, or spread out if your opponent is in MSU.

The vanguards drop in turn two to fill in any problem zones with the other Sternguard pod (ideally).

If your enemy reserves heavily, hold the Skyhammer until turn 2. Do your best to give your opponent first turn. Hide those scouts behind buildings and jink your heart out.

It will probably melt versus Tau, and Admech stealth and shrouded canticles will give you caniptions. But every army typically has their hard counter.

If you really want ICs to go with it, I'd suggest a decent duelist so your VV sergeant can go to work. Smashfether with a jump pack, Lysander or the Lord Macragge aren't bad options either. Marneus Calgar at least doesn't prevent you from sweeping, and gives you an extra doctrine and turn of rerolls.

Characters cant join a Formation and get the Formations Special Rules, unless it is specifically stated that it carries over to every model in the unit like FNP or Shrouded, its listed under Independent Characters and Special Rules in the Rulebook.

 gmaleron wrote:
Characters cant join a Formation and get the Formations Special Rules, unless it is specifically stated that it carries over to every model in the unit like FNP or Shrouded, its listed under Independent Characters and Special Rules in the Rulebook.

Go read the YMDC link i posted

I read through that and its wrong, it clearly states that unless a Special Rule indicates it affects IC's who join the unit then the IC cannot do it, its pretty cut and dry. Never have seen anyone who was not part of the origional Formation be allowed Special Rules and that includes ITC and other tournaments, it would be ridiculously overpowered. Stubborn in this case is just being used as an example.

 gmaleron wrote:
I read through that and its wrong, it clearly states that unless a Special Rule indicates it affects IC's who join the unit then the IC cannot do it, its pretty cut and dry.

None of the special rules that confer to units specify ICs (such as stubborn). Why would a formation's special rule be a different?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
I read through that and its wrong, it clearly states that unless a Special Rule indicates it affects IC's who join the unit then the IC cannot do it, its pretty cut and dry.

None of the special rules that confer to units specify ICs (such as stubborn). Why would a formation's special rule be a different?

Stubborn may be a bad example, but other rules such as Stealth and Shrouded (where it specifically states it affects all models in a unit are effected) make perfect sense. Why should an Independent Character be allowed to get free Special Rules when he was not taken as part of the Formation in the first place? It makes zero sense.

Well, it's not that he gets the special rules. He gets affected by them as he's part of the squad that is affected by them. It's all messed up but from raw, it seems to be the case.

 gmaleron wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
I read through that and its wrong, it clearly states that unless a Special Rule indicates it affects IC's who join the unit then the IC cannot do it, its pretty cut and dry.

None of the special rules that confer to units specify ICs (such as stubborn). Why would a formation's special rule be a different?

Stubborn may be a bad example, but other rules such as Stealth and Shrouded (where it specifically states it affects all models in a unit are effected) make perfect sense. Why should an Independent Character be allowed to get free Special Rules when he was not taken as part of the Formation in the first place? It makes zero sense.

The special rule in question isn't given to the unit. It's a special rule that affects the unit. The IC being a part of the unit also gets affected.

Only if the Special Rule Specifically states that the IC is affected, otherwise he isnt.

To clarify word for word from the Rulebook:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."

According to this it clearly states that if the Special Rule in question doesnt say it effects Independent Characters or all models in the unit then the IC cannot benifit from it. The Sturbborn rule is a bad example but it doesnt change the overall interaction of IC's and Special Rules.

 gmaleron wrote:
Only if the Special Rule Specifically states that the IC is affected, otherwise he isnt.

To clarify word for word from the Rulebook:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."

According to this it clearly states that if the Special Rule in question doesnt say it effects Independent Characters or all models in the unit then the IC cannot benifit from it. The Sturbborn rule is a bad example but it doesnt change the overall interaction of IC's and Special Rules.

Yeah the rule wasn't conferred to the IC. The formation doesn't confer a rule to anything. It just affects the unit.

The rule in question is listed under Special Rules for the units chosen for the Formation. Under Formations in the Rule Book

"Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

 gmaleron wrote:
The rule in question is listed under Special Rules

I'm talking about the formation bonus, you know what the discussion in this thread is about?

By Formation Bonus are you reffering to being able to charge out of Deep Strike? Because that is listed under the Formations Special Rules. If it is something else I apologize if im mixing something up.

 gmaleron wrote:
By Formation Bonus are you reffering to being able to charge out of Deep Strike? Because that is listed under the Formations Special Rules. If it is something else I apologize if im mixing something up.

Conferring a rule is the act of giving a model/unit a rule. The formation's special rule isn't giving a rule to the unit, its a special rule that is affecting the unit.

So you're right that IC's aren't conferred a rule unless specified. The formation isn't conferring a rule though.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
By Formation Bonus are you reffering to being able to charge out of Deep Strike? Because that is listed under the Formations Special Rules. If it is something else I apologize if im mixing something up.

Conferring a rule is the act of giving a model/unit a rule. The formation's special rule isn't giving a rule to the unit, its a special rule that is affecting the unit.

So you're right that IC's aren't conferred a rule unless specified. The formation isn't conferring a rule though.

It is however because a Formations Rules are listed as Special Rules according to this:

Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

This means that you ignore the Standard FOC chart and you take the specific units listed in the Formation, the rules for the Formation are listed as Special Rules meaning you would have to treat them just like any other Special Rule. For example I am looking at the Skyhammer Assault Formation and all the special abilites granted to the units in the Formation are listed as Special Rules.

 gmaleron wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
By Formation Bonus are you reffering to being able to charge out of Deep Strike? Because that is listed under the Formations Special Rules. If it is something else I apologize if im mixing something up.

Conferring a rule is the act of giving a model/unit a rule. The formation's special rule isn't giving a rule to the unit, its a special rule that is affecting the unit.

So you're right that IC's aren't conferred a rule unless specified. The formation isn't conferring a rule though.

It is however because a Formations Rules are listed as Special Rules according to this:

Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

This means that you ignore the Standard FOC chart and you take the specific units listed in the Formation, the rules for the Formation are listed as Special Rules meaning you would have to treat them just like any other Special Rule. For example I am looking at the Skyhammer Assault Formation and all the special abilites granted to the units in the Formation are listed as Special Rules.

I called it a special rule. What's your point?

It is a Special Rule from a Formation that is affecting/ being applied to the unit that is being taken as part of the Formation, that unit now has that "Special Rule" so it has been given that Special Rule. That means that you still have to follow the guidelines for Special Rules and Independent Characters which states that unless a Special Rule says it effects IC's who join the unit or all models in the unit then they cannot benifit from it.

Example from the Skyhammer Annilation Force:

"First Fire then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Stirke Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annilation Force have the Relentless Special Rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Deep Strike Reserves that turn."

First Fire then the Blade is listed as a Special Rule, this Special Rule specifically effects the units that have to be taken as part of the Formation. Nowhere in this Special Rule does it state that it effects all models in the unit or any IC's that join the unit. The units in question are given the Special Rule, its not affecting them.

It's ambiguous, but I agree with gmaleron, the Independent Character cannot join this formation and gain the charge from deep strike special rule, just like an Independent Character cannot join an Assault Squad or Devastator Squad from the Skyhammer Annihilation Force formation and gain either Relentless, or the ability to charge the turn they land (squad depending).

Basically, if it doesn't come as part of the formation, it cannot benefit from the formation's rules and bonuses. End of discussion.

It's the same as one of the Blood Angels formations I could run (eventually, once I get the models) called Archangels Sanguine Wing, which consists of the following:
2 Vanguard Veteran Squads, 1 Sternguard Veteran Squad, 1 Stormraven Gunship
The restrictions on this are that all three squads must be 10 models strong, and that both squads of Vanguard Veterans be equipped with jump packs. Also, the Sternguard must begin embarked on the Storm Raven and both Vanguard squads must be in deep strike reserve.
The benefits of this are you make one reserve roll for both Vanguard squads and Stormraven + Sternguard, and may re-roll this reserve roll if you wish. You get a free power weapon/lightning claw on all Vanguard, and a free storm bolter or Combi-weapon on all Sternguard.

All that said, I cannot attach a Sanguinary High Priest to this formation or have that model enter play benefiting from the combined reserve roll that I can choose to re-roll if needed. That model cannot attach to the Sternguard Squad in the Stormraven, nor can it attach to either of the Vanguard squads. He's not a part of the formation, so he'd have to try and join the squad as part of the movement phase after the Vanguard land, or as the Sternguard deploy out of the Stormraven once the formation arrives on the table.

That's how I see it. Take it easy folks.

-Red__Thirst-

What's the name of this formation?

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Basically, if it doesn't come as part of the formation, it cannot benefit from the formation's rules and bonuses. End of discussion.

+100500

We should also consider when are this bonuses allocated to units. Units taken as a part of formation get all formation specific rules (bonuses) at the time a formation is taken to the army (before the game begins) but IC joins them later -- during deployment (even if it joins another unit being in reserve it is still technically speaking done during deployment). So at the time any IC can join a unit from Formation the latter have already got all formation rules and the former can not get them (because of BRB).

 Red__Thirst wrote:
It's ambiguous, but I agree with gmaleron, the Independent Character cannot join this formation and gain the charge from deep strike special rule, just like an Independent Character cannot join an Assault Squad or Devastator Squad from the Skyhammer Annihilation Force formation and gain either Relentless, or the ability to charge the turn they land (squad depending).

Basically, if it doesn't come as part of the formation, it cannot benefit from the formation's rules and bonuses. End of discussion.

It's the same as one of the Blood Angels formations I could run (eventually, once I get the models) called Archangels Sanguine Wing, which consists of the following:
2 Vanguard Veteran Squads, 1 Sternguard Veteran Squad, 1 Stormraven Gunship
The restrictions on this are that all three squads must be 10 models strong, and that both squads of Vanguard Veterans be equipped with jump packs. Also, the Sternguard must begin embarked on the Storm Raven and both Vanguard squads must be in deep strike reserve.
The benefits of this are you make one reserve roll for both Vanguard squads and Stormraven + Sternguard, and may re-roll this reserve roll if you wish. You get a free power weapon/lightning claw on all Vanguard, and a free storm bolter or Combi-weapon on all Sternguard.

All that said, I cannot attach a Sanguinary High Priest to this formation or have that model enter play benefiting from the combined reserve roll that I can choose to re-roll if needed. That model cannot attach to the Sternguard Squad in the Stormraven, nor can it attach to either of the Vanguard squads. He's not a part of the formation, so he'd have to try and join the squad as part of the movement phase after the Vanguard land, or as the Sternguard deploy out of the Stormraven once the formation arrives on the table.

That's how I see it. Take it easy folks.

-Red__Thirst-

Though I agree with most of this, I'd say you still COULD attach the Sanginary Priest to the formation, but by doing so the fact that he doesn't get the re-roll reserve bonus keeps the formation from being able to do so. I doubt there's anything in the rulebook backing me up on this, and I have NO time to look as I'm almost late for work, but that's just my opinion on how things should work...

Having said that...if Descent of Angels was your warlord trait, the re-roll would be back in effect. Huzzah!

Guys stay on topic. There is a seperate YMDC for this
Move it there.

harkequin wrote:
Guys stay on topic. There is a seperate YMDC for this
Move it there.

Pretty sure your comment is the only one that isn't on topic in this whole thread. Apart from this one, now. Erm...Drat!