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So how do multiple of these formations and "Pile on da pain !" work ?

Do they affect other pain formations ?
Can only one Pain boy in the army call a Pile on da pain or can each formation call pile on da pain once ?


And the the second part would be what would happen if you killed 25% of the unit.
I would assume that they need to make a morale test, but now comes the interesting part what happens (to your unit and their unit) if they don't pass that test ?

I'd say each formation can do it once per game from the way it reads to me. It would only effect the units from that particular formation though and not the others.

Yeah that seems to be the most logical but the wording is a bit dubious and I want to be sure before I invest in building multiple of these formations.

Is this confirmed as real? Sounds wishlisty to me.

What happens if you're locked in a challenge?
If you inflict wounds since your opponent can't attack do they automatically lose the combat and take a break test?
If you kill the enemy unit do you sweeping advance?
Its at the start of the movement phase so if you wipe out the enemy unit can you move/shoot/assault normally in the turn?

so many holes in this that it reeks of wishlisting but then so many rules holes adds to the fact that it might be real? Typical GW rules writing)

 Nithaniel wrote:
Is this confirmed as real? Sounds wishlisty to me.

What happens if you're locked in a challenge?
If you inflict wounds since your opponent can't attack do they automatically lose the combat and take a break test?
If you kill the enemy unit do you sweeping advance?
Its at the start of the movement phase so if you wipe out the enemy unit can you move/shoot/assault normally in the turn?

so many holes in this that it reeks of wishlisting but then so many rules holes adds to the fact that it might be real? Typical GW rules writing)

yes this is the real formation for the start box for orks. I don't think it stacks as formation special rules only apply to units in that formation. Close combat in the movement phase acts just like close combat in the assault phase. Now you have to be locked in to do this. So you would have to charge in the turn before or get charged and live then you can use the ability to do this. Basically everyone would move the 3" inches and then you fight just like in the assault phase. If you win combat, your opponent still gets to take saving throws, but they will most likely lose combat and you could break them. The leadership check would be at the end of the movement phase. If they break and run and you don't sweep them, you get to consolidate and then can shoot and assault the running unit or shoot and assault something else.

I don't think you'd break them. They fight as if in a Fight Sub-Phase, but it doesn't say that you resolve anything else as if it was a Fight Sub-Phase. The enemy models don't respond at all from the looks of it. I don't think you can break enemies by causing them to "lose combat" in this way.

EDIT: As per the original topic; it definitely seems to only affect the one formation, and not all of them. It says that "an Ork Painmob can "Pile On Da Pain". This means the formation itself. So, when it says every unit from the formation, it's talking about itself - the formation that called to Pile on Da Pain. I don't really see any way it could be misconstrued as affecting any other formation. If it say "an Ork Painboy can Pile On Da Pain", then there'd be a... still strenuous... argument as to which Painboy and which formation it's affecting, but that's not the case. It's the Pain-MOB that calls the Pile On Da Pain, and it's referencing itself.

I would say you can do it once per formation per game, but I would get an ITC vote on it. They may say you do activate it once and every formation is affected just like the Ghostkeels

 Yarium wrote:
I don't think you'd break them. They fight as if in a Fight Sub-Phase, but it doesn't say that you resolve anything else as if it was a Fight Sub-Phase. The enemy models don't respond at all from the looks of it. I don't think you can break enemies by causing them to "lose combat" in this way.

I don't think that you will calculate combat results as usual.
But I do thin that you might be able to force a moral test due to 25% losses as normal in any phase. In the same way the terrify power does -> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/462939.page
And as a result of this you might sweap the enemy ( not likely with orks) or get free and assaul them again that turn.

Isn't there a rule that models in close combat don't take Leadership Tests as a result of losing 25% of their models? Normally this is in there to make sure a unit losing a close combat that ALSO lost 25% of its models doesn't take two tests, right?

 Yarium wrote:
Isn't there a rule that models in close combat don't take Leadership Tests as a result of losing 25% of their models?

No, the exception is for "... losing 25% or more of their current models in the Assault phase..." Its the first bullet point under 'When To Test' on page 57 of the main rulebook.

rulebook wrote:Units that are locked in close combat do not take Morale checks or Pinning tests caused
by shooting attacks and cannot go to ground; they are much too focused on fighting to be worried
about being shot at!

rulebook wrote: Casualties: A unit losing 25% or more of its current models during a single phase must take a Morale
check at the end of that phase. There is an exception: units that lose 25% or more of their current models
in the Assault phase do not take a Morale check

Seems that dmg in combat that isn't during the assault phase nor shooting does result in moral checks

I.........guess if you kill 25% of the enemy unit in your 'free hits' phase, they would have a chance to fall back and you could sweeping advance. But you wouldn't calculate based on winning combats in the assault phase?

That's an odd one.

Still not sure about the sweeping thing.

[Edit] Just looked it up they can also sweep.

rulebook wrote:Sweeping Advances: When a unit Falls Back from combat, the victors make a Sweeping Advance

So, let me see if I understand this correctly.

If orks use their 'free hits' thing, the enemy only has a chance to make (and fail) a morale test if they lose 25% of their squad, like any other morale test - normal assault victor calculations would not apply.

If the enemy unit does fail a morale test, can they suffer a sweeping advance?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
So, let me see if I understand this correctly.

If orks use their 'free hits' thing, the enemy only has a chance to make (and fail) a morale test if they lose 25% of their squad, like any other morale test - normal assault victor calculations would not apply.

If the enemy unit does fail a morale test, can they suffer a sweeping advance?

I've been thinking about this, too, and what you said seems like the best explanation to me, save for the "and fail" part. Any morale test made as a result of 25% losses is made at full leadership, so any unit has a pretty good chance to pass. Only in the assault phase would you apply losses to the test. Though, the rule still stands that if a unit falls back from combat, they can be squashed, so IF a unit loses 25% AND they fail their full leadership, they would indeed fall back and possibly get overrun (save for SM, of course, because SM).

The rule doesn't grant permission to have any other asssault subphases other than pile in and fight. I don't believe morale happens during those.

Determining assault results, which includes a morale check for the loser, occurs during the fight sub-phase, so without a chance to fight back it seems so long as at least one successful wound is caused the unit will have to check morale and potentially fall back and suffer a sweeping advance.

blaktoof wrote:
The rule doesn't grant permission to have any other asssault subphases other than pile in and fight. I don't believe morale happens during those.

Morale Checks for model loss happen at the end of the Phase. If your unit loses 25%+ of their models to Dangerous Terrain, you take a Morale Check at the end of the Movement Phase.

However, I think being Engaged negates that aspect, if I remember right.

 Charistoph wrote:
Morale Checks for model loss happen at the end of the Phase. If your unit loses 25%+ of their models to Dangerous Terrain, you take a Morale Check at the end of the Movement Phase.

However, I think being Engaged negates that aspect, if I remember right.

Had a look earlier and I believe in the Morale section it says "in the Assault phase" so potentially check morale for losing combat and check for 25% casualties both?

 Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rule doesn't grant permission to have any other asssault subphases other than pile in and fight. I don't believe morale happens during those.

Morale Checks for model loss happen at the end of the Phase. If your unit loses 25%+ of their models to Dangerous Terrain, you take a Morale Check at the end of the Movement Phase.

However, I think being Engaged negates that aspect, if I remember right.

Only in the assault phase , as quoted above. You don't even have to be engaged - orks blowing up a vehicle in 6th may have had to take a morale check, now they don't care.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Morale Checks for model loss happen at the end of the Phase. If your unit loses 25%+ of their models to Dangerous Terrain, you take a Morale Check at the end of the Movement Phase.

However, I think being Engaged negates that aspect, if I remember right.

Had a look earlier and I believe in the Morale section it says "in the Assault phase" so potentially check morale for losing combat and check for 25% casualties both?

the fight subphase does not include any morale check, the next part of the assault subphases is determine assault results which has you check for morale.

under the section morale it states "There is an exception models in the assault phase do not take morale checks" which is tied to the previous statement of losing more than 25% of models taking a check at the end of any phase. As nosferatu pointed out above.

Of course in this case RAW the fight subphase for this special rule is happening during the movement phase, not the assault phase.

So RAW it appears one would have to check for morale from this ability.

HIWPI- the rule for not checking morale from 25% casualties at the end of the phase applies to this as it is an assault happening outside of the assault phase. However I would happily go with the RAW version if my opponent insisted as I only play orks these days.

blaktoof wrote:
the fight subphase does not include any morale check, the next part of the assault subphases is determine assault results which has you check for morale.

The Assault Phase Summary has determine assault results as step 3 of the Fight Sub-phase.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the fight subphase does not include any morale check, the next part of the assault subphases is determine assault results which has you check for morale.

The Assault Phase Summary has determine assault results as step 3 of the Fight Sub-phase.

I was looking at "fight close combat" and not "fight sub phase"

you are correct, determine assault results is part of the fight sub phase.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Morale Checks for model loss happen at the end of the Phase. If your unit loses 25%+ of their models to Dangerous Terrain, you take a Morale Check at the end of the Movement Phase.

However, I think being Engaged negates that aspect, if I remember right.

Had a look earlier and I believe in the Morale section it says "in the Assault phase" so potentially check morale for losing combat and check for 25% casualties both?

I guess the question is would they overlap or trigger at different times ?

I love it when GW adds simple rules in their getting started boxes .

Page 44, assault phase summary.

The fight sub-phase goes,

1. Choose a combat
2. Fight close combat
3. Determine assault results
4. Choose next combat or finish assault phase.

Interestingly, as the opponent cannot fight back, orks will either win or draw a fight (by not inflicting any casualties). If they win, they can force an opponent to fall back, potentially sweeping them, if they don't sweep them, they could shoot, then charge them again in the next turn forcing a regroup test, which if failed sees them removed.

Now, how does the addition of ICs affect? For example, if I added zhardsnark to a unit of Nob bikers, could he strike in this fight?
As an interesting aside, with his tank shock ability, any unit that fell back from an assault near him, could be tank shocked and wiped out without a regroup test being done.
That could be interesting.

This was brought up in another thread. RAW states that "Independent Characters that join a unit become part of that unit for all rules purposes." The Painmob rule says "...units from this formation may..." This says to me that any ICs that are part of a Nobz or Boyz unit IN THIS FORMATION may act as part of that unit for ALL rules, including the formation specific one(s).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: If the rules stated "Models from this formation...", then there would be little room to argue, but a unit with an IC is still the unit.

Do not open that discussion. This is just a question how this formation works not the monthly returning "what if I put a IC in a unit with formation advantages" discussion.

 Spydermonkey1351 wrote:
This was brought up in another thread. RAW states that "Independent Characters that join a unit become part of that unit for all rules purposes." The Painmob rule says "...units from this formation may..." This says to me that any ICs that are part of a Nobz or Boyz unit IN THIS FORMATION may act as part of that unit for ALL rules, including the formation specific one(s).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: If the rules stated "Models from this formation...", then there would be little room to argue, but a unit with an IC is still the unit.

So therefore it's worth it to maximise the assault potential of these units with the addition of ICs. Warboss' and painboys on bikes etc. This has become a formation I would be interested in. Taking multiple painmobs with this ability, piling on the pain when needed, would add doubt to any opponents decision to get tangled up in combat.
Although, it would necessitate a method of identifying each mob separately to keep track of who has already used their ability.

Noted On the topic at hand, then, the Painmob rules only says "Attack as if in the fight sub-phase." This says to me that this phase should be treated like a shooting phase, where one unit attacks and the other just takes it. I know that it's in the movement phase, but that doesn't matter. "Any unit that 25% or more models in a single phase must make a morale check at the end of that phase" pretty much wraps up the discussion on that point. If a unit suffers 25% or > causalities in the shooting phase, they'd take a morale check, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as the Sweeping Advance goes, my reasoning is that if a unit suffers 25%/> models in the Pile on da Pain attack, they must then make a regular check (no modifiers), just like in the shooting phase. If they thus fail said check, they would fall back, as per the rules, and then the sweeping advance rules would come into play, because BRB states "When a unit Falls Back from combat, the victors make a Sweeping Advance..."

I don't think you need a 25% loss, they only need to lose the combat, by taking more wounds than the pain mob, which they will unless the mob whiffs and causes no wounds.