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Hey guys,

Please forgive me if I've missed something obvious (since I don't know very much at all about Eldar fluff), but why are Eldar and Dark Eldar listed as Battle Brothers in the current rule book?

Because this makes no sense to me. It's kinda like saying that Chaos and the Imperium should be Battle Brothers. Can anyone shed light on this? Or was this a cockup by GW?

Cheers guys

I'm quoting someone else, so this is not mine, but I feel it's an apt description. Hell, it's probably been used here too, but here goes:

Imagine you're in a room trapped with the person you despise most in the entire galaxy. Now imagine the room is also filled with monkeys throwing their gak at the both of you and trying to eat your faces off.

I don't know about you, but I'd put my differences aside to deal with the monkeys first.

Eldar believe they are superior to all other races. They tend to hold everyone in contempt, even their brethren but to a lesser extent. Their hatred and fear of slaanesh and she who thirsts binds them together too. There are examples in the fluff of members of eldar and dark eldar switching sides. It's more of a lifestyle that separates the two of them.

This is how I would explain the reason why.

Yeah they don't hate each other.. Actually in reality the dark eldar love as all eldar did before slaneesh was born. It's simply they live two life styles completely separate

If elves are anything, it's racist.

Eldar, and by extension Dark Eldar, are extremely racist. They view every other life form in the galaxy as lesser than they are. Their minds are more complex, their emotions more intense, their technology more advanced: in every way they are the pinnacles of creation. They disagree vehemently on how their race is to survive, how much danger it's in, and which one of them put them there. In fact, they hate one another with an undying passion.

However, they hate everyone else more. So why are they allies? They are allies because every Eldar, be he a Craftworld ascetic or one of the True Kin, would rather put aside his hatred for his cousin and fight back to back with him against the humans, orks, and tau than to let even a single member of one of those mouth-breathing, cow-eyed child races think that they can put their greasy pudstrokers on an eldar and live to tell about it.

Why are they Battle Brothers? Because their arrogant hatred is so intense that each of them can trust every other member of their race to feel exactly the same way.

"My brother and I against my cousin. My cousin and I against the world."

Under it all, they are cousins. They share a history, they share a background, they share a language, both written and spoken. And above all, they see everything that isn't "Eldar" as less important/meaningful than a cockroach.

They also respect each other as individuals, even if they don't engage or understand how they currently are living their lives.

Its important to understand that dark eldar are not chaos eldar. During the fall the eldar race became socially split apart.

Craftworld eldar ran away from the fall in giant ships that they now live in called craftworlds. Dark eldar lived in Commoragh.

There was no large falling out between the two factions akin to the horus herresy. Instead both factions developed independently to the point where they are almost distinct races.

The harliquins have acted as travelling storytellers maintaining a combined history between the different eldar homes. Eldar can for the most part freely travel between the different Eldar homes and the different factions have been known to work together towards combined means.

Dark eldar are just crazy eldar, they would never turn down a chance for a fun raid, even if it is with their goody-two-shoes brothers!

At the end of the day, they're not really all that different, and they don't actually hold much enmity to one another. They may be called "Eldar" and "Dark Eldar" but they rarely, if ever, fight.

The Eldar mostly view the Dark Eldar as creepy, untrustworthy folks who have this really unsettling habit of eating animals. It's kind of like how a vegan hippie would view an avid hunter.

the_scotsman wrote:
At the end of the day, they're not really all that different, and they don't actually hold much enmity to one another. They may be called "Eldar" and "Dark Eldar" but they rarely, if ever, fight.

The Eldar mostly view the Dark Eldar as creepy, untrustworthy folks who have this really unsettling habit of eating animals. It's kind of like how a vegan hippie would view an avid hunter.

Not true, there are many instances of Craftworlders and Dark Eldar warring (there was a whole Craftworld wiped out by a Kabal, with Harlequins exacting retribution for it).

I think Jimsolo put it best a few posts above, but it has to be remembered that the 3 Eldar codexes, and Doom of Mymeara, don't remotely go into the level of detail of how the different Craftworlds, Maidenworlds, Corsair Fleets, Kabals, Covens and Cults interact with each other. There are Kabals and Covens that wouldn't dream of working alongside a Craftworld and just see them as more slaves for the arena's whilst others are happy to fight alongside them if it suits them (the Wrathborne got a real kick out of fighting alongside Iyanden because they found their heavy use of Wraith Necromancy hilarious) and vice versa.

As a Craftworld Eldar and former 3rd ed player jumping to 7th, I laughed when I saw this alliance table in the rule book. Dark Eldars used to be our enemy. No brother nor cousin, just enemy.

My feeling today is that most Eldar & Dark Eldar player obviously find convenient to use open-topped Raiders to drive their Wraithguards or ally his dark kin with some Craftworld powerful units, but 'battle brothers', come on. I don't want to spoil your fun, play as you wish, and I'm not saying the two factions would never fight against a common enemy neither, it can happen, but "battle brothers" would mean to me they have a few beers after the fight and laugh at the same jokes. Not quite likely to happen.

The post "I'm trapped with my worst enemy, will team up against monkeys" makes sense but not as 'battle brother', sorry. GW made up this alliance table just to have people buying some other miniatures than their own, but no, I don't believe the two Eldars cousins can ever be brothers again.

Isn't the BB thing some attempt to compensate for Imperium super friends?

There's (fluff wise) an Eldar proverb from before the fall which sums it up.

"Myself against my brother. My brother and I against our cousin. My family against the stranger."

Basically, Eldar believe that only Eldar are allowed to kill eachother. So no matter how much they hate eachother, they'll still unit against a foreign enemy - if only to ensure that they themselves get the pleasure / honor of killing their Eldar adversary after the conflict is won.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys,

Please forgive me if I've missed something obvious (since I don't know very much at all about Eldar fluff), but why are Eldar and Dark Eldar listed as Battle Brothers in the current rule book?

Because this makes no sense to me. It's kinda like saying that Chaos and the Imperium should be Battle Brothers. Can anyone shed light on this? Or was this a cockup by GW?

Cheers guys

you're not alone in wondering this. Eldar and Dark Eldar will tolerate each other in the face of a common foe, or if it just amuses them, but they're not like the the factions of the Imperium, and in many ways actively hate each other just as much as anyone else.

They should be allies of convenience at best.

 morganfreeman wrote:
There's (fluff wise) an Eldar proverb from before the fall which sums it up.

"Myself against my brother. My brother and I against our cousin. My family against the stranger."

Basically, Eldar believe that only Eldar are allowed to kill eachother. So no matter how much they hate eachother, they'll still unit against a foreign enemy - if only to ensure that they themselves get the pleasure / honor of killing their Eldar adversary after the conflict is won.

And that's called allies of convenience.

They're battlebrothers just cause dark eldar have abysmal selling rate.

Probably for a couple reasons.

First:, Eldar Cosairs. Being a pirate is something all Eldar can agree is cool.

Second, they aren't diametrically opposed like some people think. The Eldar more pity their sadistic, demented cousins than they are actively antagonistic to them.

In a galaxy of other horrors to fight against, the Eldar and Dark Eldar are more likely to team up than they are to fight against one another. After all, you know what they say. Eldar Bros before Human and Tau Hos.

Because the Imperial armies can't get ALL the perks.

Is be fine if they ditched allies altogether

Battle brothers doesn't mean they need to be BFFs. It is not like all the Imperial factions get along with each other flawlessly.

The actual reason is when GW made the allies chart, they realized that due to the imperium-centric narrative they had, only the imperium would be battle brothers with anyone (well, the chaos factions too, but at that time the two chaos books were still essentially one army split in two). Instead of making freebooters or chaos guards by allowing them to ally with others or chaos (respectively), they just decided to lump all the Eldars together .

First of all, Eldar & Dark Eldar don't hate each other, they simply have different reactions to The Fall, as do the other 3 Eldar Factions: Corsairs, Exodites & Harlequins.

Basically, the Eldar lifestyle pre-Fall was an aristocratic, self-indulgent life in which any Eldar felt they could do whatever they wanted. As Eldar are a Psychic species, all this hedonism formed an entity in the Warp, i.e. Slaanesh. Just before Slaanesh was "born" some Eldar realized bad stuff was about to happen. These were the Craftworld Eldar who fled the center of the Eldar empire, and the Exodites who decided to re-colonized Maiden worlds long seeded by the Eldar. The Exodites are like the Amish.

Once the Fall happened, the Craftworlders decided to live more disciplined lives so that they could avoid reverting to their uncivilized ways. The "Dark" Eldar were safe in their webway isolated cities and decided to continue "business as usual", but without the use of psychic powers.

Harlequins are the only Eldar that are 'safe' from Slaanesh as the Laughing god will steal their soul away from She who thirsts. Harlequins believe that it is vital to preserve the Eldar culture and mythic cycles and are respected and revered by ALL types of Eldar.

Corsairs are a mix of Craftworld exiles and Dark Eldar. They are the happy medium between the 2.

Eldar don't hate each other, they are just dealing with the destruction of their once great empire in different ways. But they see ALL other races as vermin.

--
The other aspect that makes them Battle Brothers is their shared culture and history that allows them to make similar strategic actions with very little communication needed.

Where do people get it from that Eldar and Dark Eldar would somehow hate each other? The different groups of Eldar (Craftworlders, Commorrites, Exodites, Harlequins, Corsairs etc.) get along well enough in the fluff. They interact quite often and Eldar can even leave their group to join another if they so desire (Craftworlder settling in Commorragh or vice versa).
They are the same people after all, just with different lifestyles. Sometimes that leads to conflict, but in the end they are still family. Even the lowliest of Eldar scum is preferable to the vile, disgusting alien beasts like Humans, Orks or Tyranids that infest the galaxy from end to end.
Hell, they probably hate each other less than the different institutions of the Imperium hate each other

The Harlequin codex specifically references them as the "binding force" that keeps the Eldar factions together - implying that they do share some alliances. It might be awkward at times, but no less awkward than Imperial witch hunters and psykers banding together against Chaos.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Where do people get it from that Eldar and Dark Eldar would somehow hate each other? The different groups of Eldar (Craftworlders, Commorrites, Exodites, Harlequins, Corsairs etc.) get along well enough in the fluff.

except the DE live off the pain and suffering of others, including other Eldar, they are physically a different people at this point, and are the very same people that forced the Craftworlders and Exodites into their monastoc/overdisciplined lifstyles and unleashed Slaanesh. There's a great story in one of the 3E books (maybe Chapter Approved) where a Craftworld's psykers are having to permanently seal off part of the webway so the DE can't use it.

They'll cooperate in the face of shared threats or if it is otherwise in their interests (such as amusement), but they are not the same people nor are they anything resembling real allies. Theyre likes dogs and wolves, similar, but not the same thing.

There are pirate bands composed of individuals from both backgroundds, but they arent Craftworlders at all, they leave behind the Eldar Paths in search of adventure and glory, and much like the IG codex isnt BB's with CSM's to represent traitor IG, Craftworlders and DE should not be BB's to represent such pirates (who, like Traitor IG, also have their own lists).

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The Harlequin codex specifically references them as the "binding force" that keeps the Eldar factions together - implying that they do share some alliances. It might be awkward at times, but no less awkward than Imperial witch hunters and psykers banding together against Chaos.

A good example is Valedor - where the Harlequins brokered an alliance between the Craftworlders and Commorites to stop the nids.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The Harlequin codex specifically references them as the "binding force" that keeps the Eldar factions together - implying that they do share some alliances. It might be awkward at times, but no less awkward than Imperial witch hunters and psykers banding together against Chaos.

Except often many of those Imperial Witch Hunters are themselves Pskyers (many Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus & Ordo Malleus for example), they hunt rogue and unsanctioned Psykers, not just any and all Psykers. The Harlequins offer a bridge, sure, but not enough of one that BB's really make sense.

That said, certain Imperial factions also have no business being Battle Brothers (DA's and SW's for example, or GK's and SW's, etc).

Vaktathi wrote:That said, certain Imperial factions also have no business being Battle Brothers (DA's and SW's for example, or GK's and SW's, etc).

But let's bw honest: GW is never going to be proactive enough to implement things like that haha

Battlebrothers doesn't just mean best friends. It also means the armies have a compatible style of warfare, whether that means they employ the same tactics or are extremely quick at adapting to their allies. Eldar factions are highly mobile forces with advanced command and control systems. If they want to they can integrate almost seamlessly.

The fluff of the Incubi specifically involves in them killing Aspect Warriors and cracking open their spirit stones to make tormentor weapons. One wonders what their Craftworld allies would think of that.

I think it's worth mentioning that all this Craftworld-Dark Eldar alliance fluff mostly appeared after the advent of allies. prior to 6th edition I don't think anyone would have thought them as trusted allies at all. Really, the Battle Brothers alliance between them never made much sense to me, especially when the Dark Eldar chronically backstab among themselves, let alone with another factions. "Battle Brothers'' implies a level of trust and cooperation that I don't see the Dark Eldar as capable of having with anyone else. What is dscribed in the fluff is more ''Allies of Convenience'' between two factions being forced to cooperate with one another.

Spetulhu wrote:
Battlebrothers doesn't just mean best friends. It also means the armies have a compatible style of warfare, whether that means they employ the same tactics or are extremely quick at adapting to their allies. Eldar factions are highly mobile forces with advanced command and control systems. If they want to they can integrate almost seamlessly.

No. Battle Brothers is simply a game mechanic to represent the highest level of cooperation between forces. It's also not very well implemented as the Imperium of Man is more complex than the allies matrix would suggest (as mentioned DA and SW shouldn't be BB, nor GK and SoB) and the same goes for the Eldar factions. Craftworlders and Dark Eldar should be Allies of Convenience whilst both would be BB with Corsairs and Harlequins.