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Not to mention that because Eldar live so long that often one individual can spend time as multiple kinds of Eldar. A really good example of this is in the Path of the Warrior series. One of the squad members in the Scorpion unit turned out to be a former DE Incubus. In the Path of the Outcast book, one of the Corsair captains was a former Dark Eldar.

If you cannot accept that all Eldar should be BBs, than you either don't know Eldar fluff very well, or think that Imperials should not be BBs either.

 Galef wrote:
Not to mention that because Eldar live so long that often one individual can spend time as multiple kinds of Eldar. A really good example of this is in the Path of the Warrior series. One of the squad members in the Scorpion unit turned out to be a former DE Incubus. In the Path of the Outcast book, one of the Corsair captains was a former Dark Eldar.

If you cannot accept that all Eldar should be BBs, than you either don't know Eldar fluff very well, or think that Imperials should not be BBs either.

Well, lots of Imperial factions shouldn't be BB's, but just because some Eldar can move between factions doesn't mean they should be BB's either, just like how IG regiments or SM chapters can turn traitor doesn't mean IG or SM's should be BB's with CSM's or Daemons.

Spetulhu wrote:
Battlebrothers doesn't just mean best friends. It also means the armies have a compatible style of warfare, whether that means they employ the same tactics or are extremely quick at adapting to their allies. Eldar factions are highly mobile forces with advanced command and control systems. If they want to they can integrate almost seamlessly.

Hrm, highly individualistic DE Warriors intent on pillage and inflicting of suffering riding in paper planes isn't really something that would be seamlessly integrated with highly disciplined aspect warriors fighting in defense of their craftworld riding in armored medium tanks. Aside from speed and a basic statline, there's relatively little in common.

Craftworlds took part in the same rituals that Dark Eldar do on a daily basis before Slaneesh was born. They just adopted different ways to hide from Slaneesh.

As for Battle Brothers, they don't particularly like each other, but both factions believe themselves above all other races as Eldar do. They will team up to deal with the IoM, Necrons, etc etc. Then go back to their respective cultures once the battle is done.

The only Eldar faction that has ever worked with IoM are Harlequins and that was reserved purely for Inquisition and possibly Grey Knights. But it's not like either faction sought help, it was more a right place, right time thing with a respect to not engage in hostility once the battle was over. Kinda like Blood Angels and Necrons bro-fist.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Craftworlds took part in the same rituals that Dark Eldar do on a daily basis before Slaneesh was born. They just adopted different ways to hide from Slaneesh.

In what regards? The Dark Eldar are the original Eldar, that caused the fall, and who now have to inflict pain and suffering to prevent their being from being slowly sucked away by Slaanesh, and hide within the Webway, while the Craftworlders adhere to rigid codes of conduct and disciplined lives to avoid the temptations that caused the fall, and began that life before Slaanesh was born.

As for Battle Brothers, they don't particularly like each other, but both factions believe themselves above all other races as Eldar do. They will team up to deal with the IoM, Necrons, etc etc. Then go back to their respective cultures once the battle is done.

That sounds like allies of convenience at best, not Battle Brothers.

The only Eldar faction that has ever worked with IoM are Harlequins and that was reserved purely for Inquisition and possibly Grey Knights.

Not true at all, the Craftworlders have worked with the Imperium before, I've got the book Shadow Point right here where Craftworld Eldar and the Imperial Navy join forces to fight Abaddon. Then there was Tallarn, and a few others I can't recall off the top of my head.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Is be fine if they ditched allies altogether

Oh, me too. The ally system is a mess that really benefits Imperial players (of which there are more than six bloody factions) and, with this somewhat odd case, Eldar and Dark Eldar.

It'd be better if they fixed the damn rules so things weren't so incongruous, and this thread wouldn't have been necessary.

I feel like much of the disagreement comes less from how buddy buddy the various eldar are but from how buddy buddy we expect battle brothers to be. The book never gives a description of the various levels of friendship so it is kind of up to your interpretation as to how friendly it is. We can only really infer to the level of friendship based on the rules.

So from that we know that battle brothers get along well enough to allow the following.

They are willing to be follow the leadership of the other faction as based by the sharing warlord trait.

Characters from one faction are willing to join a squad from another faction, and don't take seem to worry at all about being betrayed.

Units trust the other faction enough to allow psychic buffs to be placed on them. They do not assume that the psyker is attempting to turn on them.

Mechanics from one faction are either knowledgeable enough in the others vehicles or so well trusted that they can repair them.

The factions can partake in planning and sharing intel before the battle based on their abilities to share in reserve manipulation. Reserve manipulation from what I've seen in fluff text comes from the expert tactics and planning.

They are willing to ferry around other factions in their vehicles.

Most of these things are trust issues more than anything. Dark eldar don't need to like craftworld eldar that much to trust them. I don't think it is that hard to forge a narrative where these two factions are willing to plan and develop a strategy together, and will trust each other enough to follow through on these plans.

For example: Craft world Freindly Bro's farseer's have looked into the future and they see a imperial world that exists uncomfortably close to them is doomed to become corrupt with chaos, and unless somebody steps in that chaos will spread through the whole area. Friendly bro's want to ruin the imperial world but its defenses are too strong and an all out attack against it would cost far too many eldar lives. They know that the dark eldar Kabal of Bad dudes also operates in the area and manages to raid the imperial planets frequently. They get into contact with the archon of the Bad dudes and broker a deal where the bad dudes will work together with the Friendly Bro's for this campaign in return for all the captives and money in the planet. They hash out a mission in which the archon will lead a number of raiders some filled with kabolites and some filled with fire dragons through the webway to come out on the surface of the planet and destroy the planets defense systems so that they can bring in a larger ground force to wipe out the rest of the planet.

 coblen wrote:
I feel like much of the disagreement comes less from how buddy buddy the various eldar are but from how buddy buddy we expect battle brothers to be. The book never gives a description of the various levels of friendship so it is kind of up to your interpretation as to how friendly it is. We can only really infer to the level of friendship based on the rules.

So from that we know that battle brothers get along well enough to allow the following.

They are willing to be follow the leadership of the other faction as based by the sharing warlord trait.

Characters from one faction are willing to join a squad from another faction, and don't take seem to worry at all about being betrayed.

Units trust the other faction enough to allow psychic buffs to be placed on them. They do not assume that the psyker is attempting to turn on them.

Mechanics from one faction are either knowledgeable enough in the others vehicles or so well trusted that they can repair them.

The factions can partake in planning and sharing intel before the battle based on their abilities to share in reserve manipulation. Reserve manipulation from what I've seen in fluff text comes from the expert tactics and planning.

They are willing to ferry around other factions in their vehicles.

Most of these things are trust issues more than anything. Dark eldar don't need to like craftworld eldar that much to trust them. I don't think it is that hard to forge a narrative where these two factions are willing to plan and develop a strategy together, and will trust each other enough to follow through on these plans

Given that their ways of life are diametrically opposed, that the Dark Eldar must inflict pain and suffering on others and is not hesitant at all to use their own kind for such, that certain Warrior schools like the Incubi require the slaying of Craftworlders for induction and their rites, and that trust is a concept wholly alien to the Dark Eldar who thrive on betrayal and intrigue, this would seem to make it very difficult to be "Battle Brothers". They also share just about nothing in common with regards to vehicles and weapons, and the Dark Eldar are not exactly known for keeping the company of Psykers.

They share nothing in common vehicle wise? Accept the common ancestry of their tech. The same frames for many of their vehicles.

Like the venom and the vyper have the same frame with different wings and weapons. The razor wing and the crimson hunter have the same frame with slightly different wings.

Their vehicle models have the same kinds of parts. The parts on the exhaust on the raider is the same as on the wave serpent just the wave serpents is bigger.

Their bikes are the same but with a different frame on the front.

Dark lances and bright lances have an identical stat line a common tech ancestry and look similar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sure dark eldar thrive on betrayal and intrigue but that doesn't mean its so common that they cannot work together. They clearly organize themselves into kabals and do raids without always turning on each other and killing each other. Trust is not a concept wholly alien to them otherwise they wouldn't even be able to be battle brothers with themselves.

They are self serving and if you can write a situation where there self serving nature puts their desires in alignment with the craft worlds then they are more likely to serve this desire than to randomly back stab people.

 coblen wrote:
They share nothing in common vehicle wise? Accept the common ancestry of their tech. The same frames for many of their vehicles.

Like the venom and the vyper have the same frame with different wings and weapons..

Which are about the only similar vehicles, and frames are about the most basic part of a vehicle, look at an F-15 from the 1970's versus a brand new F-15 and they've got a whole mess of new electronics and avionics that a 1970's technician wouldn't have the faintest clue about and wouldn't be able to service at all, despite both aircraft having the same frame.

Even then the frames do have major differences, and the cockpit positions, weaponry, battlefield role, engines & intakes, wings, etc are very different.

While it might be possible for each side to service each others vehicles on some level, it'd likely be limited to jank repairs of relativley basic functionalities, much like say, a Russian tank crew and a US tank crew might be able to figure out how to change tracks on each others tanks and other relatively simple maintenance & repair procedures, but they'd be extremely inefficient at it relative to properly drilled native crews, and they wouldn't be able to do much at all with the more specialized equipment.

The razor wing and the crimson hunter have the same frame with slightly different wings

These vehicles are actually very different, only really the swoop of the wings is similar. The fuselage, cockpit, engines & engine placement, weaponry, etc are all very different.

Their vehicle models have the same kinds of parts. The parts on the exhaust on the raider is the same as on the wave serpent just the wave serpents is bigger.

A Raider is an engine with some planks to stand on, a Wave Serpent is an armored, vacuum & flight capable medium battle tank, just because the exhaust ports looks similar doesn't mean anything. Even if the engines operate on similar principles, the internals may be vastly different, and certainly the rest of the vehicles bear no resemblance in form or function. To use a real world example, you can take a modern ECM blower motor out of one furnace, and it probably won't work in another furnace despite the two using the exact same motor because the programming that governs its computer controlled operation is very different from model to model depending on their specifications, and without specialized equipment or a gargantuan amount of time and programming experience (on top of lots of HVAC knowledge and knowing what the correct specs to program would be), hamfisting them into another furnace is likely to result in poor performance or complete nonfunctionality.

Even if the DE could service the engines on a Wave Serpent, could they easily service the weapons? avionics? targeting systems? communication systems? sensors? internal controls? Without prior training and experience, probably not.

Their bikes are the same but with a different frame on the front.

Hrm, only the exhaust cowling and intake frame, aside from that, they're very different, with different weapons, frames, vanes/wings, armor values, etc.

Dark lances and bright lances have an identical stat line a common tech ancestry and look similar.

They share an identical statline but share no common tech ancestry. A Bright Lance is a coherent-light base weapon similar to a Lascannon (and indeed, in editions past, Eldar did not have Bright Lances, but Lascannons like Imperial armies). A Dark Lance projects a stream of exotic matter that produces a similar effect but operates in an entirely different manner to that of a Bright Lance.

Sure dark eldar thrive on betrayal and intrigue but that doesn't mean its so common that they cannot work together.

I'm not saying that they can't ever work together, but that they wouldn't really be "battle brothers".

They clearly organize themselves into kabals and do raids without always turning on each other and killing each other. Trust is not a concept wholly alien to them otherwise they wouldn't even be able to be battle brothers with themselves.

Every army is battle brothers to themselves because it's just easier from a gameplay perspective, That said, from a fluff perspetive, absolutely different kabals would be extremely wary of each other and the DE codex itself talks about how they fight amongst themselves at every opportunity. What better way to stage a takeover than to kill your rival while they're distracted in battle? They don't always turn on each other, but it's not exactly rare, and they're always talked about as being extremely wary of each other.

They are self serving and if you can write a situation where there self serving nature puts their desires in alignment with the craft worlds then they are more likely to serve this desire than to randomly back stab people.

Sure, but that doesn't make them battle brothers, it makes them allies of convenience or desperation. They'd be looking over each others shoulders pretty frequently even if there isn't any genuine ill intent...and who knows what possibilities opportunity provides in the right situation...?

I think your really underselling the effort gw's sculptors put into making all the eldar vehicles feel like they are of the same origin that have developed different aesthetics over time. You can tell me how all the insides are totally different and now the tanks are nothing the same, but how do you know that? Have you looked inside the engines on all the eldar vehicles and found out that they are different. Maybe they have not changed that much between the fall and now. I'm pretty certain eldar tech has not significantly advanced since the fall. The models all look super similar in the mechanics part instead it looks more like aesthetic choices that separate them.

You keep saying sure they may work together but that doesn't make them battle brothers. What makes you an expert on what battle brothers are? There is nowhere in the book that says that battle brothers are the best of chums and everything is great when they are together. It only gives us a section of rules outlining what battle brothers can do together and its easy to see elder fitting into that rule space.

 coblen wrote:
I think your really underselling the effort gw's sculptors put into making all the eldar vehicles feel like they are of the same origin that have developed different aesthetics over time.

I won't argue that there's a similar aesthetic vein, but that's not the same thing as being identical tech or similar construction.

Aside from some stylistic visual similarities, there's not much that's common between the two races. They use different weapons, different materials, different functioning principles, etc that aren't interchangable. There's tons of fluff on such technical differences, and nothing but visual styling to associate them. Splinter weapons do not appear in Craftworld forces despite being the mainstay of the Dark Eldar. Shuriken weaponry appears nowhere in the Dark Eldar arsenal despite being the mainstay of the Craftworld arsenal. Lances, while similarly named, are very different in operation between Bright and Dark. The DE infantry anti-tank weapon, the Blaster, is entirely different to the Fusion gun of the Eldar, which is also highly distinct from the DE Heat Lance. DE lack equivalents of something like a Scatterlaser or EML entirely, and their equivalent of a Starcannon is very different indeed. Likewise Eldar constructs such as the Wraithlord or Wraithguard bear zero similarity in any way to Dark Eldar monstrosities like the Talos and Groteques. There is practically nothing they share that is similar aside from some of the basic fundamentals like skimmer technology and jetbike propulsion.

You can tell me how all the insides are totally different and now the tanks are nothing the same, but how do you know that? Have you looked inside the engines on all the eldar vehicles and found out that they are different. Maybe they have not changed that much between the fall and now. I'm pretty certain eldar tech has not significantly advanced since the fall. The models all look super similar in the mechanics part instead it looks more like aesthetic choices that separate them.

Again, even if the principles may be the same, for all the detail reasons I listed in my previous post, despite tech being similar, it doesn't mean that they can fix each others stuff easily.

Oh man, I didn't even get into Wraithbone, which is used in Craftworlder's weapons, armor, vehicles, constructs, etc, and Dark Eldar make no use of this substance at all as far as I'm aware.

You keep saying sure they may work together but that doesn't make them battle brothers. What makes you an expert on what battle brothers are?

This is where we get off the reservation...

That said, being familiar with the game fluff and the descriptions GW has given such things over time is a good start. There's zero evidence these groups trust each other particularly well, and the one big fluff example of them cooperating that comes to mind is when the DE come to Iyanden's aid, because they're amused at how the Iyanden have had to debase themselves and raise their dead to fight again. That's not "I am your trusted battle brother", that is "I'm here for my own amusement at your expense".

There is nowhere in the book that says that battle brothers are the best of chums and everything is great when they are together. It only gives us a section of rules outlining what battle brothers can do together and its easy to see elder fitting into that rule space.

The 7E rulebook doesn't get into any fluff detail on the various levels of alliance, but the 6E rulebook did, and point blank it says "Battle Brothers have utter trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of their own forces".


Ultimately these two factions have diametrically opposed worldviews, totally different social structures, they have totally different goals/wants/desires, they have very different weapons and equipment and technology, their tactics/strategies and operational doctrine are vastly different, they operate under no overarching command structure that covers them both, they live literally in different dimensions, sharing only a few cultural items (such as their old gods and some views on other races), some stylistic preferences, and a basic biology.

Because the *Eldar race* never valued their lives too highly unlike we do. They just value their *essence* what we try to define as *soul*

We as humans consider each individual life and actions meaningful but for the Eldar that means very little.

Before the Fall and Slaanesh, Eldar were able to die and reborn in an endless cycle being somewhat inmortal their dead reincarnating sometimes along their own bloodline descendants, but after the Fall each faction choose a different path to preserve themselves and their souls.


Craftworlders may focus in a strick discipline (to no awaken the beast) Exodites live a somewhat ascetic and simple life (akin to Amish if wish) , Harlequins are bounded to Cegorach and somewhat safe from Slaanesh hunger and Dark Eldar just found other lesser races had that *essence* and they could drain it to restore their own be drained by slaanesh.

There was a short story on WD some years ago about some Craftworlders trying to retrieve some weapons from an imperial planet, at the end the governorn slaughtered the eldar envoys and used their Spirit Jewels as aTrophy/Jewelry this act enraged the Craftworld to the point they even Awakened the Avatar and destroyed the whole planet leaving no humans alive aside the planetary Governor who was sent with Harlequins to the Dark Eldar to find a proper way to punish him.

The history end with the storyteller pointing how due the Governor actions (playing with the Spirit jewels or Eldar souls after all) the Dark eldar put him udner their best Homonculous care, and somehow after more than 500 years he was still alive paying for his transgresion.

Lord Perversor wrote:
Because the *Eldar race* never valued their lives too highly unlike we do. They just value their *essence* what we try to define as *soul*

We as humans consider each individual life and actions meaningful but for the Eldar that means very little.

Before the Fall and Slaanesh, Eldar were able to die and reborn in an endless cycle being somewhat inmortal their dead reincarnating sometimes along their own bloodline descendants, but after the Fall each faction choose a different path to preserve themselves and their souls.


Craftworlders may focus in a strick discipline (to no awaken the beast) Exodites live a somewhat ascetic and simple life (akin to Amish if wish) , Harlequins are bounded to Cegorach and somewhat safe from Slaanesh hunger and Dark Eldar just found other lesser races had that *essence* and they could drain it to restore their own be drained by slaanesh.

There was a short story on WD some years ago about some Craftworlders trying to retrieve some weapons from an imperial planet, at the end the governorn slaughtered the eldar envoys and used their Spirit Jewels as aTrophy/Jewelry this act enraged the Craftworld to the point they even Awakened the Avatar and destroyed the whole planet leaving no humans alive aside the planetary Governor who was sent with Harlequins to the Dark Eldar to find a proper way to punish him.

The history end with the storyteller pointing how due the Governor actions (playing with the Spirit jewels or Eldar souls after all) the Dark eldar put him udner their best Homonculous care, and somehow after more than 500 years he was still alive paying for his transgresion.

That may be, but that doesn't show anything that would indicate that Craftworlders and DE would be battle brothers. The Haemonculi do that sort of thing for all sorts of reasons, usually just because they like it. It's not like they're gonna tell the craftworlders "no" when they bring them an Imperial Governor. Sure, the Haemonculus might give him some extra attention for doing what he did to Eldar, but that also doesn't mean that the Haemonculus wouldn't do the same to a Farseer if the opportunity arose. They certainly do similar unspeakably horrific things to their fellow Dark Eldar.

 Vaktathi wrote:
That may be, but that doesn't show anything that would indicate that Craftworlders and DE would be battle brothers. The Haemonculi do that sort of thing for all sorts of reasons, usually just because they like it. It's not like they're gonna tell the craftworlders "no" when they bring them an Imperial Governor. Sure, the Haemonculus might give him some extra attention for doing what he did to Eldar, but that also doesn't mean that the Haemonculus wouldn't do the same to a Farseer if the opportunity arose. They certainly do similar unspeakably horrific things to their fellow Dark Eldar.

Aside the fact the whole history is made to show how far Eldar can go for their souls, and explicity states knowing a soul of their kind was used as a decoration literally pissed and angered the Dark eldar too (and i'm speaking back from 3rd -4th edition lore)

I do not deny they can literally hate, kill and somewhat punish each other, but in the end their *essence* or souls is the only thing they won't defile. About them being Battlebrothers in the battles it's kinda easy they are just to racist they only consider their very own race (or variants of) to be worthy to held their word to.

 Vaktathi wrote:

They clearly organize themselves into kabals and do raids without always turning on each other and killing each other. Trust is not a concept wholly alien to them otherwise they wouldn't even be able to be battle brothers with themselves.

Every army is battle brothers to themselves because it's just easier from a gameplay perspective, That said, from a fluff perspetive, absolutely different kabals would be extremely wary of each other and the DE codex itself talks about how they fight amongst themselves at every opportunity. What better way to stage a takeover than to kill your rival while they're distracted in battle? They don't always turn on each other, but it's not exactly rare, and they're always talked about as being extremely wary of each other.

I think that the 5th ed description of the relationship shared between Kabalite Warriors and their Sybarite pretty much puts this into perspective. Not a verbatim quote, but essentially "Though Kabalite Warriors do not harbor a shred of loyalty for their Sybarite leaders they will still obey their commands to the letter, for they are far well versed in the arts of war."

Essentially, Dark Eldar are under-handed but they're not hilariously (nor suicidally) evil. They want to climb the food chain and advance their position, not get themselves killed in the attempt. This is highlighted all over their codex's.

Lords / leaders who die on the battlefield occasionally having their remains "not make it" to the regeneration chambers back in the Dark City. Kabals engaging less in all-out gang warfare - something which does happen but is said to not be terribly common - but instead undermining their adversaries efforts through the use of third parties / conducting much smaller raids on their business enterprises. The Kabals all want to beat one another, but they don't devolve into just turning the streets into WW2. The use of mercs / unsavory types to do dirty work rather than their own men.

The Dark Eldar are super villains, not blood-thirsty berzerkers. Given this and their towering ego - more so than even regular Eldar - it's really not a far cry to imagine them cooperating with their Craftworld / Corsair kin under the correct circumstances.

While they do prey upon those same kin, an Archon or Dracon who simply goes "Lelz, lured 15 firedragons into the Webway and totally backstabbed them yesterday!" would just be too dim to have gotten to that station. In order to reach any sort of power within the political spiderweb of the dark city you're going to have to understand subtly and know how to be unpredictable.

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That may be, but that doesn't show anything that would indicate that Craftworlders and DE would be battle brothers. The Haemonculi do that sort of thing for all sorts of reasons, usually just because they like it. It's not like they're gonna tell the craftworlders "no" when they bring them an Imperial Governor. Sure, the Haemonculus might give him some extra attention for doing what he did to Eldar, but that also doesn't mean that the Haemonculus wouldn't do the same to a Farseer if the opportunity arose. They certainly do similar unspeakably horrific things to their fellow Dark Eldar.

Aside the fact the whole history is made to show how far Eldar can go for their souls, and explicity states knowing a soul of their kind was used as a decoration literally pissed and angered the Dark eldar too (and i'm speaking back from 3rd -4th edition lore)

It might, but that doesn't mean they'd be Battle Brothers either, they're just racial supremacists.

I do not deny they can literally hate, kill and somewhat punish each other, but in the end their *essence* or souls is the only thing they won't defile. About them being Battlebrothers in the battles it's kinda easy they are just to racist they only consider their very own race (or variants of) to be worthy to held their word to.

Except they break their word to each other all the time, they scheme and plot and undermine each other, as far as the Dark Eldar go, when they die they don't use soulstones and so they're screwed if they aren't reanimated/reformed by the Haemonculi, and when their intrigues result in each others deaths, they damn each others souls as well. They do all sorts of terrible things to each other.

morganfreeman wrote:

The Dark Eldar are super villains, not blood-thirsty berzerkers. Given this and their towering ego - more so than even regular Eldar - it's really not a far cry to imagine them cooperating with their Craftworld / Corsair kin under the correct circumstances.

Right, again, not saying they can't cooperate with the Craftworld Eldar, but both sides would have eyes on each other the whole time, they're not going to work as extensions of each others forces. They obviously occaisionally do join forces, but they're always temporary alliances and the Craftworlds keep contact with the DE to a minimum, they aren't going to be trusting each other not to do something underhanded at some point.

While they do prey upon those same kin, an Archon or Dracon who simply goes "Lelz, lured 15 firedragons into the Webway and totally backstabbed them yesterday!" would just be too dim to have gotten to that station. In order to reach any sort of power within the political spiderweb of the dark city you're going to have to understand subtly and know how to be unpredictable.

Except they do exactly that sort of thing to each other as a matter of course when it suits them. If it would amuse the Archon to kill those Fire Dragons, they'll do it. If they haven't killed or inflicted suffering in some time, they'll backstab the Fire Dragons. If nothing else, there's always warrior pride and egos on top of underlying cultural differences to cause conflict. Those Fire Dragons are not going to consider themselves perfectly safe around the Dark Eldar for a reason, only when they return to the Craftworld.