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So now that Death From the Skies is coming out and it replaces all datasheets for flyers, is the book now required?

Many of the rules are not listed as optional.

As in dogfighting, flyer datasheets, flyer patterns, formations.

So they are part of the core rules.

Some people are calling it a supplement, which it is not listed as, then claim that supplements are optional, which it is stated as replacing the rules in the brb within its pages.

Angels of Death is a supplement, the Kauyon campaign book is a supplement, and those are not optional.

DFTS is not even a supplement.

Not sure why people think these rules are optional.

Its just like stronghold and escalation, none of those rules were optional and people acted like they were. GW then published a new edition and put them in the rulebook so somehow the rules which were never optional were now seen as being core rules by whining people. Basically its is codex:flyers.

blaktoof wrote:
Many of the rules are not listed as optional.

As in dogfighting, flyer datasheets, flyer patterns, formations.

So they are part of the core rules.

Some people are calling it a supplement, which it is not listed as, then claim that supplements are optional, which it is stated as replacing the rules in the brb within its pages.

Angels of Death is a supplement, the Kauyon campaign book is a supplement, and those are not optional.

DFTS is not even a supplement.

Not sure why people think these rules are optional.

Its just like stronghold and escalation, none of those rules were optional and people acted like they were. GW then published a new edition and put them in the rulebook so somehow the rules which were never optional were now seen as being core rules by whining people. Basically its is codex:flyers.

This......

Noted. I guess I am retiring my Stormtalons then. I guess my Blood Angels will have no options for Skyfire either.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Noted. I guess I am retiring my Stormtalons then. I guess my Blood Angels will have no options for Skyfire either.

Not currently buying new GW books until I actually start playing again so I have no idea what changes were made. Does this supplement (or whatever term would be more appropriate) really change that much about flyers purchased normally in armies? Is it the end of the world for folks that use a Stormwolf or just something that takes some adjusting and planning ahead? Is this a 100% must buy book if I plan on having any Flyers/FMCs in my lists when I get an occasional game in?

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Noted. I guess I am retiring my Stormtalons then. I guess my Blood Angels will have no options for Skyfire either.

Not currently buying new GW books until I actually start playing again so I have no idea what changes were made. Does this supplement (or whatever term would be more appropriate) really change that much about flyers purchased normally in armies? Is it the end of the world for folks that use a Stormwolf or just something that takes some adjusting and planning ahead? Is this a 100% must buy book if I plan on having any Flyers/FMCs in my lists when I get an occasional game in?

Attack Flyers (which the Stormtalon and Stormraven are) no longer have the Skyfire rule with their weapons AND take a -1 to BS for shooting ground targets. So, in short, this fething slowed book nerfed the gak out of them.

Fliers lose native Skyfire in DFtS.

Only Fighters (which Stormtalons aren't) have it natively.

Also BA do have a source of Skyfire. They're called Flakk Missiles.
A terrible source, but still a source all the same.

Also I believe Attack fliers don't have -1BS vs Ground Targets casvalremdeikun. Fighters get that debuff.
I could be wrong though, I haven't actually bought the book.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Noted. I guess I am retiring my Stormtalons then. I guess my Blood Angels will have no options for Skyfire either.

Not currently buying new GW books until I actually start playing again so I have no idea what changes were made. Does this supplement (or whatever term would be more appropriate) really change that much about flyers purchased normally in armies? Is it the end of the world for folks that use a Stormwolf or just something that takes some adjusting and planning ahead? Is this a 100% must buy book if I plan on having any Flyers/FMCs in my lists when I get an occasional game in?

Attack Flyers (which the Stormtalon and Stormraven are) no longer have the Skyfire rule with their weapons AND take a -1 to BS for shooting ground targets. So, in short, this fething slowed book nerfed the gak out of them.

What is the "Attack" in their designation referring to if they suck at engaging everything?

 Eldarain wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Noted. I guess I am retiring my Stormtalons then. I guess my Blood Angels will have no options for Skyfire either.

Not currently buying new GW books until I actually start playing again so I have no idea what changes were made. Does this supplement (or whatever term would be more appropriate) really change that much about flyers purchased normally in armies? Is it the end of the world for folks that use a Stormwolf or just something that takes some adjusting and planning ahead? Is this a 100% must buy book if I plan on having any Flyers/FMCs in my lists when I get an occasional game in?

Attack Flyers (which the Stormtalon and Stormraven are) no longer have the Skyfire rule with their weapons AND take a -1 to BS for shooting ground targets. So, in short, this fething slowed book nerfed the gak out of them.

What is the "Attack" in their designation referring to if they suck at engaging everything?

I think it must be a reference to them BEING attacked, because they sure as hell aren't going to be attacking anything themselves.

blaktoof wrote:
Many of the rules are not listed as optional.

As in dogfighting, flyer datasheets, flyer patterns, formations.

So they are part of the core rules.

I disagree. Just because it is not listed as optional does not mean it is required when not found in the core book, especially if you never use them.

blaktoof wrote:
Some people are calling it a supplement, which it is not listed as, then claim that supplements are optional, which it is stated as replacing the rules in the brb within its pages.

Angels of Death is a supplement, the Kauyon campaign book is a supplement, and those are not optional.

DFTS is not even a supplement.

Not sure why people think these rules are optional.

Its just like stronghold and escalation, none of those rules were optional and people acted like they were. GW then published a new edition and put them in the rulebook so somehow the rules which were never optional were now seen as being core rules by whining people. Basically its is codex:flyers.

They are optional if you do not use any of those systems that they incorporate. Interestingly enough, Codices were classed as supplements to the book till relatively recently.

I do not need Escalation if I do not run any Super-Heavies. In fact, since I run Necrons, all my Super-Heavies are in codex and their unit typse are covered in core rules.

Stronghold, you do have a point, as you may want their datasheets. However, if you do not run those Fortifications, then there is no need to purchase this.

Codices are not noted as supplements, does that make them core rules? Yet, I only need the ones for the Factions I use in my army. The only time I need any other army's codices is for places like this.

Just remember, ALL source material is optional depending on where/who you're playing. I dont yet know if my local meta is going play the new rules. my small gaming group probably wont

If you and your opponent (or even a TO) want to use the brb rules for flyers, then so be it

I just read an FAQ on B&C, and it looks like ONLY Fighters get -1 BS against ground targets, and Flyers only lose Skyfire when they are in the Dogfight phase. On the table behavior does not change, so Attack Flyers and Bombers shoot at their normal BS and get Skyfire when they are on the table. Nevermind on the second part. Only Fighters get the Skyfire rule. So Stormtalons and Stormravens are still nerfed into oblivion.
I guess I will need to get a Deredeo Dreadnought for my Blood Angels (if they can even take the frickin' thing...) and a few Stalkers for my Crimson Fists. I suppose I would save a few points on my Fists, so there is that.

It is not optional.

*The following thoughts are not depicted at someone specific in this topic.*

If you and your opponent want to play with the BRB flyer rules just do it.

What's the issue?

If people tell you that you have to play their Revenant Titan because it says so in the rules (which it does they are not optional) then politely refuse to play with them. Warhammer 40k is about enjoying a game together.

If you dislike something (which means it is your personal preference) try to find a solution with your opponent first, if it's not successful look for other players who enjoy playing a battle like you do.

Does this always have to be discussed to death? Isn't the concept of something being optional that you have more to choose from? Which is the opposite of finding arguments in the books wording to create a basis for banning it!

Like every rule in a GW publication and FAQ you have the freedom to ignore and/or change it. It is your battle after all.

But people should really stop trying to force their preferences onto others.

Warhams-77 wrote:
It is not optional.

*The following thoughts are not depicted at someone specific in this topic.*

If you and your opponent want to play with the BRB flyer rules just do it.

What's the issue?

If people tell you that you have to play their Revenant Titan because it says so in the rules (which it does they are not optional) then politely refuse to play with them. Warhammer 40k is about enjoying a game together.

If you dislike something (which means it is your personal preference) try to find a solution with your opponent first, if it's not successful look for other players who enjoy playing a battle like you do.

Does this always have to be discussed to death? Isn't the concept of something being optional that you have more to choose from? Which is the opposite of finding arguments in the books wording to create a basis for banning it!

Like every rule in a GW publication and FAQ you have the freedom to ignore and/or change it. It is your battle after all.

But people should really stop trying to force their preferences onto others.

Given that with the new rules, I have absolutely no effective way to deal with my brother's Flyrants when using my Blood Angels (no, Flakk missiles do not count), and many other armies suffer the same problem, this is not me forcing my preferences anyone. This is me not thinking an across-the-board nerf to several factions is unacceptable.

I did not mean you, and I was commenting on a general approach of keeping the DftS rules out of the game because they create disadvantages.

I agree with you.

So how about the Stormraven possibilities in the book. What about the Wingleaders and other rules? Have they been leaked?

Could you please post an army list you play? And which flyer and fortification models you have?

My first suggestion is with the new FAQ psykers can Psychic Shriek FMC out of the skies. But there are most likely more concepts how to kill them.

Warhams-77 wrote:
I did not mean you, and I was commenting on a general approach of keeping the DftS rules out of the game because they create disadvantages.

I agree with you.

So how about the Stormraven possibilities in the book. What about the Wingleaders and other rules? Have they been leaked?

Could you please post an army list you play? And which flyer and fortification models you have?

My first suggestion is with the new FAQ psykers can Psychic Shriek FMC out of the skies. But there are most likely more concepts how to kill them.

I haven't made a list for my Blood Angels in over a year, but my Crimson Fists are as follows:

Pedro Kantor
Librarian (ML2, Bones of Osrak relic, Force Sword) - Probably going to go Telepathy on him hoping for Invisibility (in spite of the nerf) and probably use Shriek on turns where I have enough Warp Charges (I reroll failed tests and get an extra warp charge due to the relic)
Honour Guard (7 of them, go with Pedro and the Librarian in a pod)
2x Sternguard Squads in Drop Pods
2x Scout Squads in Land Speeder Storms (:( the Jinking Transport ruling makes me sad)
Lascannon Devastators
Raptor Wing (2x Stormtalons, 1x Land Speeder Typhoon)
Aegis Defense Line (I had points leftover that I couldn't really make use of otherwise)

The hit to the Stormtalons is pretty significant since that was my only source of AA fire. The formation runs pretty well 300 pts on the dot (give or take depending on Land Speeder loadout). I could easily run an Anti-Air formation with three Stalkers and one Hunter for that number of points, but I would be sacrificing my ground capabilities to do so. Another option would be to lose the Land Speeder and give the Aegis a Quadgun. I could also just say Feth it and get an Imperial Bunker, give it the Quadgun, and give it a Void Shield.

I will first copy in all the leaks I found to get a better picture. It is sadly true that several models have lost a few of their strengths.

Stormhawk datasheet (leaked by Miniwars.eu a few minutes ago)











From a first glance I guess you should replace the LS with a Stormhawk and play these three as an air unit. They can change attack patterns and will be efficient with the correct one from how I understand the rules. They do not have to attack the same targets. The Hawk takes care if air units, the Talons attack ground units. They each profit from the attack pattern in their role.

I am definitely thinking of getting a Stormhawk (I would give it the Icarus Stormcannon and Skyhammer Missile Launchers). Swapping out the Aegis and the Land Speeder would generate enough points for one. I still am not at all happy about my Stormtalons being nerfed severely. If Fighters get Skyfire against Flyers and -1 BS to non-flying targets, it seems like they could have given Attack Flyers Skyfire, but at -1 BS and normal ground fire. If I do get one, I will probably run the Intolerance Attack Pattern to make my brother's Ravenwing extra sad. Nevermind, they can't be used in the same attack pattern due to not being from the same datasheet. Otherwise I will run the Vigilance Attack Pattern if I decide against the Stormhawk.

True and I can totally understand the disappointment.

I will try to find the Wing Leader roles now and see if C: Marines and BA got anything changing that.

Flyer wings all have to be the same flyer, so you can't have a pair of talons with a hawk as an attack pattern, since they all need to be from the same wing.

Honestly, the Stormhawk is probably the best flyer in the marine book now, since even -1BS vs ground targets is a small price to pay, considering its 15 more points than a talon to keep Skyfire and have a two shot Lascannon.

Edit: though a stormtalon with typhoons might be worth it in a attack pattern that gets ignore cover. But still probably not...

Warhams-77 wrote:
True and I can totally understand the disappointment.

I will try to find the Wing Leader roles now and see if C: Marines and BA got anything changing that.

If nothing else, the Vigilance Attack Pattern getting my Stormtalons frickin' BS 6 against Ground Targets is pretty phenomenal.

These just leaked - Source: via Miniwars.eu

Edit: original source is https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/745

 Crazyterran wrote:
Flyer wings all have to be the same flyer, so you can't have a pair of talons with a hawk as an attack pattern, since they all need to be from the same wing.

Honestly, the Stormhawk is probably the best flyer in the marine book now, since even -1BS vs ground targets is a small price to pay, considering its 15 more points than a talon to keep Skyfire and have a two shot Lascannon.

Yeah, I saw that (edited my post too). The Stormhawk is not so much good so much as the Stormtalon and Stormraven are worthless.

EDIT: Apparently they included the data sheet for the Stormhawk IN its box, so even if I get one, I won't need to get the book to play with it.

Well, I guess I'd you get the four (two of each one) they can form flyer formations that might make them pretty decent. The downside is you have to spend 490 points (for the typical load outs of skyhammers) on flyers.

Might not be to bad, though, Especially if they fly in the indomitable pattern. Preeeety good.

The Astartes Wing Leader rules are disappointing. Well... at least they are free pointswise

http://m.imgur.com/a/JbpHU






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes you need two each for the formation (which can use attack patterns). Hmm

Warhams-77 wrote:
The Astartes Wing Leader rules are disappointing. Well... at least they are free pointswise

http://m.imgur.com/a/JbpHU






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes you need two each for the formation (which can use attack patterns). Hmm

Especially given that the majority of Astartes flyers are going to get blown up easily due to AV 11, so Know No Fear is pointless. Angel of Death is objectively inferior to the Raptor Wing's rules. Chapter Champion is pretty nice though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, if they really wanted to represent Fighters being much harder to hit, they should have made it so only Fighters and units with Interceptor could not them at full BS, and Attack Flyers and Bombers only gain Skyfire against themselves and FMCs. That way FMCs are super fast and maneuverable compared to Attack Flyers and Bombers, and Fighters are very good.

If I do get some AA for my Blood Angels, it will be in the form of a Deredeo Dreadnought. Not getting another Stormraven. Ever.

Did they ever leak if there any restirctions on which armies can take the new fighters?

Im assuming which is never good the GK can take them since the stormraven is part of a formation?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Did they ever leak if there any restirctions on which armies can take the new fighters?

Im assuming which is never good the GK can take them since the stormraven is part of a formation?

Just Codex: Space Marines can take the Stormhawk. Other Space Marine armies can ally one in. GW keeps talking about it like it is an actual solution. Honestly, if that is their solution, they should have just allowed GK and BA to take it in the first place.

Only Fighters can skyfire and get nerfed against ground units.

Attack Flyers are designed to attack ground.

Bombers only get buffs from flyer wing for their bombs.

txdyz wrote:
Only Fighters can skyfire and get nerfed against ground units.

Attack Flyers are designed to attack ground.

Bombers only get buffs from flyer wing for their bombs.

Fighters shoot at full BS against Air Targets and -1BS against Ground Targets. Attack Flyers get BS1 against Air Targets and full BS to Ground Targets. So the Stormhawk is BS4/BS3, the Stormtalon and Stormraven are BS1/BS4. And the Stormhawk gets more and better weapons all for 15 points. Do you see why I am irritated by this? If they had made Attack Flyers -1 BS to Air Targets and Full BS to Ground, there would be parity between the two. But as it stands, Fighters are OBJECTIVELY better than Attack Flyers. Period.

On a side note, GW Facebook said the book is optional.