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Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?

They're still strong as even their worst options can be better than the equivalents of other codices. People will thank you, though.

Yes. Playing any game as a cheese is impossible, cheese can't play games.

On a more serious note sure, just balance our army vs your opponent and don't max out on the op stuff. There are enough fun units and weapon choices in there that don't ruin our game.


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An idiot proof way to build a non cheesy eldar army.
- Don't do formations.
- Look at the codex, select only units & upgrades that makes you go. "I love the idea / model / fluff but why would anyone ever want to field that"

And the most important step.
-Change and tone down our army if it was clearly too op to play against in retrospect

Merellin wrote:
Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?

they can certainly be olayed at a much more reasonable level, though theyll still likely have an advantage over most ofher armies. Avoid Wraithknights, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, D weapons in general, Jetseer councils, more than 1-per 3 HW's on Bikes, and some of the more egregious psychic powers like Invisibility, stick it in a single CAD and you're probably fine for most games and still will be capable of engagin most tournament armies pretty well without one sidedly crushing weaker armies.

Definitely can. I've not heard a single issue from other people about my Aspect Warrior list. The worst thing in the list was 5 Warp Spiders with some less than good upgrades.

You might want to check out this site if you want some guidelines on how (not) to build op armies.

http://www.communitycomp.org/

[Edit] This might be the best way to build the least OP army of any sort if you don't know that much about the game. Just read the file and try to minimize the credits. The file has been made with great care for the sole reason to tone down op armies.

Thanks for the replies ^_^ I'v played against Wraithguard and Wraithblades enough to disslike them.. So hard to kill.. xD If I where to have a Wraithknight, It would only be in apocalypse when there is like 16 000 points or more per side and everyone has a superheavy/gargantuan. It wouldent be used in regular matches, At all..

I like the Jetbikes, Probably wont overload on psykers, But I might try to convert a Autarch on Jetbike..

Merellin wrote:
Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?

No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.

For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.

Merellin wrote:
Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?

Absolutely! In fact, one of the silver linings to having a codex with so many powerful options is that you can play pretty much whatever you want in a casual game without being punished for it. Wraith Knights are sort of problematic, but there are easy ways to field pretty much anything else without ruining your opponent's game.

Want to do a jet bike heavy army? Consider limiting your heavy weapons to 1 big gun per 3 bikes like in the old days. Jetbikes are still quite good without scatter laser spam, but they're far easier to shoot back at or assault if they have to get within 12" to use most of their guns. Maybe even consider mixing in a sub-optimal choice like shining spears (which are fun even if they have problems).

Want to field warp spiders? Awesome. Just don't spam them and/or don't include an exarch in the unit. Without the exarch making them un-sweepable, spiders become much more vulnerable to assaults.

Aside from the big three (bikes, wraith knights, and spiders), most eldar units are actually pretty reasonable. In fact, I'd argue that things like striking scorpions and dire avengers are great examples of units that are effective and flavorful with their rules while still being on a reasonable power level. 90% of the eldar options are good at their jobs and fun to use without being overpowered. Just avoid taking the 8% of options that are a little too good at what they do.

Then there's the 2% of options that are just plain not great. Things like rangers and banshees are often considered some of the worst units in the eldar army if not the worst. But you know what? Even those troublesome units can work with a little work. I've been building up an Iybraesil-themed army. That means lots of howling banshees. Banshees aren't great by themselves, but mixing in Jain Zar or some wave serpents to help them survive the trip down field and debuff enemy WS really helps a lot. I've been backing them up with an Avatar and some Wraith Lords (also "bad" choices), and I've found it actually works reasonably well in a casual setting!

I guess what I'm saying is this:
* It's easy to avoid fielding the too-good/cheesy options.
* Most of our options are good without necessarily being cheesy.
* Those few options that aren't "good" can still be playable with support from relatively good options.

Compare to, for instance, Tyranids where not using the "cheesy" options leaves you with almost nothing but bad-to-mediocre options.

EDIT: Wow! 7 responses in the time it took me to write that!

Just a heads up, eldar jetbikes are criminally under costed in points for their effectiveness in the game even if you don't load them up with heavy weapons. ; )

 Traditio wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?

No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.

For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.

This is a perfect example of a TFG attitude.

Wow, the hate is strong...

I'm going to re-iterate what oldzoggy said. Play with the stuff that looks cool without worrying too much about whether or not it's strong. So long as you don't spam any single entry, you'll be fine. Try to make everything a one-of.

Outside of that, look to the Craftworlds Biel-Tan, Alaitoc, and Ulthwe for some guidance. Those craftworlds use a lot of the not-completely-OP units. Having some Banshees, Dark Reapers, and Fire Dragons with Biel-Tan is a lot of fun. Playing up the Black Guardians of the Ulthwe and having a Warlock in each of those squads is fun. Playing with Vypers, War Walkers, and Snipers of Alaitoc is a lot of fun. Those are all fun without being overpowering, and most of those still have some very powerful units within them!

Personally, I think people are just scared of fighting the cheddar lists. The moment some bikes or Wraithknights come down, people (understandably) freak out.

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?

No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.

For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.

This is a perfect example of a TFG attitude.

Name something in the codex that you don't think is undercosted or somehow OP.

Name a single unit.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?

No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.

For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.

This is a perfect example of a TFG attitude.

Name something in the codex that you don't think is undercosted or somehow OP.

Name a single unit.

Is there a point? You're hardly a rational person when it comes to this.

Storm Guardian.

Wraithlord.
Storm Guardians.
Rangers.
Banshees.
Fire Prisms.
Avatar.
All Phoenix Lords.
Autarchs.
Shining Spears.

And those are just the subpar. They have a lot of par.

Not everything in the CWE Dex is as crazy as people seem to think.


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@OP:

Another thing I'd point out:
Pick a unit. Get one box. Pick another unit.
Rinse and repeat.

Armies with a number of different units are more fun to play against. And, if you accidentally pick something OP, at least you didn't get a lot of it.

I say one box instead of one unit, because deathstars aren't so funo.

It a 1500 list, one Spider squad won't wreck the game. But 3 will.

People keep saying "avoid formations" but for the most part, the formations aren't really a major deal for Eldar. At least a Guardian Battlehost requires you to take at least 30 guardians and a Vyper. Very few people will complain having to face those units. It also allows just a tiny bit of the ol' Eldar POWAH by including a weapons platform that can be strength D, so people don't think you are taking it TOO easy on them.

Its really the Wraith formations people should avoid, as anything with the word Wraith in it tends to be more than the standard army can handle. Fielding an Aspect Host isn't going to have people wailing and tearing their hair out unless you just spam Spiders.

In fairness giving a unit BS5 is pretty good and there's not much downside to making an Aspect Host.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?

No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.

For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.

This is a perfect example of a TFG attitude.

Name something in the codex that you don't think is undercosted or somehow OP.

Name a single unit.

Banshees are generally considered to not be very good, even at their recently reduced price.

Personally, I'd consider most of our book to be at least a couple points too cheap for what it does. Things that were already pretty okay before the new book got some improvements without any points increase, The thing is that having slightly too cheap options all over the place doesn't actually make it impossible to have a good, non-cheesy game with them.

The OP is asking if it's possible to play Eldar without bringing a smash-face cheese list. The answer is yes. We have a lot of units that are highly efficient for their points (more points efficient than non-eldar counterparts), but that doesn't mean you can't build a list close enough in power to your opponent's to have a good game. You'll never see a 40k game that has two 100% perfectly balanced armies in it unless they're literally the same list. And even then, one player getting first turn will likely make the match mathematically a-symmetrical once you account for first-turn casualties. But you don't need a 100% balanced match to have fun. You just need a match where the lists present are balanced against one another well-enough for it to be sort of kind of close.


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 ClassicCarraway wrote:
People keep saying "avoid formations" but for the most part, the formations aren't really a major deal for Eldar. At least a Guardian Battlehost requires you to take at least 30 guardians and a Vyper. Very few people will complain having to face those units. It also allows just a tiny bit of the ol' Eldar POWAH by including a weapons platform that can be strength D, so people don't think you are taking it TOO easy on them.

Its really the Wraith formations people should avoid, as anything with the word Wraith in it tends to be more than the standard army can handle. Fielding an Aspect Host isn't going to have people wailing and tearing their hair out unless you just spam Spiders.

Well said. I'm not sure I agree on the Wraith thing though. Wraith blades and wraith lords are actually considered some of our worst units. D-scythe wraith guard are annoyingly good, but they're a lot less scary when not arriving via webway portal or some other shenanigans. Regular wraith guard are quite good but also quite expensive. Wraith guard/blades melt under AP3 shooting like meltas or plasmas, and even wraith lords will drop pretty quickly against krak missiles (or things that are like krak missiles but better).

The formations themselves aren't directly problematic either. The spirit host has good buffs, but it's also quite expensive. I feel like the wraith knight is more problematic than the formation itself. How would people feel about the formation if the 'knight were removed from it? The wraith construct formation is basically just problematic because it lets you get a wraithknight, which, again, is more of a wraith knight issue.

A fluffy, wraith-spamming Iyanden list will do very well against land raiders and enemy wraith knights, but it will do rather less well against an army that favors quantity over quality. Truk boyz with hidden powerklaws actually trade pretty well against a unit of wraith guard!

Absolutely you can. Some of my funnest games have been against eldar. I think most of the ways to accomplish this have been said. Avoid more overpowered selections such as the wraithknight, scat bikes, warp spiders, titans, strength d weapons, and jetseer councils. Happy gaming!

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
People keep saying "avoid formations" but for the most part, the formations aren't really a major deal for Eldar. At least a Guardian Battlehost requires you to take at least 30 guardians and a Vyper. Very few people will complain having to face those units. It also allows just a tiny bit of the ol' Eldar POWAH by including a weapons platform that can be strength D, so people don't think you are taking it TOO easy on them.

Its really the Wraith formations people should avoid, as anything with the word Wraith in it tends to be more than the standard army can handle. Fielding an Aspect Host isn't going to have people wailing and tearing their hair out unless you just spam Spiders.

BS5 is a pretty huge deal, especially on things like Fire Dragons (which, on top of their "AP0" effect, gives them an almost 200% boost in Damage Chart kills).

Getting to make all (or most) of the specialist infantry in an army BS5 for zero cost is pretty bonkers.

That said, formations in general are pretty awful game design mechanics, and really are just sales mechanisms...

Bharring wrote:
Wraithlord.

When you take into account upgrade options, the wraithlord isn't really a bad unit. It's just overshadowed by the broken, OP gak that makes up the rest of the codex.

Is it fairly costed?

Let's compare it to a dreadnought. T8 is virtually equivalent to front, side and rear AV 12. Note that the wraithlord possesses a 3+ armor save that the space marine dreadnought lacks.

In fact, let's waltz on over to the tyrranids codex. A naked carnifex is exactly the same price as a naked wraithlord.

Which would you prefer to field?

What about once upgrades are taken into account?

No, the wraithlord isn't the most OP gak in the eldar codex. But it's probably undercosted relative to other similar models in other codices.

Storm Guardians.

Dark Eldar wyches beg to differ.

Rangers.

Rangers are probably one of the few units in the Eldar codex that are even close to being fairly priced, and even then, they're probably a better version of scouts than other codices for the same or better cost.

Banshees.
Fire Prisms.
Avatar.
All Phoenix Lords.
Autarchs.
Shining Spears.

Before I spend any more time on the rest of this:

Have you compared those units to other similar units in other codices?

You can't just look at those units and compare them to the rest of the broken, OP gak that is the rest of the eldar codex. To determine whether they are under priced, you have to start looking around at other codices and what they pay for similar models.

To the OP:

If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex. Or Tau, for that matter.

Merellin wrote:
Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?

Other than a Wraith KNights cost, and the Jetbieks NUMBEr of Scatterlasers i see no real problems in the codex. I thought the codex was great until i saw the Wraith Knight. It was only later that I learned the Jetbikes were kind of outlandish also. No normal troops choice should look so suspiciously like a heavy support choice, ya know?

Gamers will complain about anything. From what i can see, the Wraith Knights cost and Jetbikes taking so many Scatter Lasers are the issues. So you could voluntarily do one every third Jetbike as it was before and still field them without breaking things. Skipping the Wraith Knight seems reasonable too.

The other superstars of the codex are far less scary. It is still a very strong Codex but you shouldnt get all the hate you will with those tow things curtailed. My opinion.

 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wraithlord.

When you take into account upgrade options, the wraithlord isn't really a bad unit. It's just overshadowed by the broken, OP gak that makes up the rest of the codex.

Is it fairly costed?

Let's compare it to a dreadnought. T8 is virtually equivalent to front, side and rear AV 12. Note that the wraithlord possesses a 3+ armor save that the space marine dreadnought lacks.

In fact, let's waltz on over to the tyrranids codex. A naked carnifex is exactly the same price as a naked wraithlord.

Which would you prefer to field?

What about once upgrades are taken into account?

No, the wraithlord isn't the most OP gak in the eldar codex. But it's probably undercosted relative to other similar models in other codices.

Storm Guardians.

Dark Eldar wyches beg to differ.

Rangers.

Rangers are probably one of the few units in the Eldar codex that are even close to being fairly priced, and even then, they're probably a better version of scouts than other codices for the same or better cost.

Banshees.
Fire Prisms.
Avatar.
All Phoenix Lords.
Autarchs.
Shining Spears.

Before I spend any more time on the rest of this:

Have you compared those units to other similar units in other codices?

You can't just look at those units and compare them to the rest of the broken, OP gak that is the rest of the eldar codex. To determine whether they are under priced, you have to start looking around at other codices and what they pay for similar models.

To the OP:

If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex. Or Tau, for that matter.

You're comparing the sub-par Eldar stuff to the WORST of other codex' stuff.

Dreadnoughts, as a vehicle, are worse than Wraithlords because of the meta. A Carnifex belongs to one of the worst codices - Tyranids, which rely on gimmick builds and spamming Flyrants.
Dark Eldar Wyches have been pretty bad since 6th, AFAIK.
You ADMIT that Rangers are fairly priced - forfeiting your point - and don't elaborate on the rest of Bharring's good points.

You are holding Eldar to a changing standard. You compare it whichever codex you deem appropriate. Compared to Orks, SM are OP. Compared to Chaos, IG can be OP. Where is the baseline you're working from? Should everything be Chaos tier? Eldar tier? IG teir?

To OP - Run what you like the look of - don't look at the rules, look at the fluff and theme and aesthetic of the model. Don't stop playing because someone wants you to play with your models how they want. If they don't want to play against you, fine. Their loss. By asking this question, you're clearly not TFG, and I'd gladly play you if you took what you liked, regardless of rules.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:You ADMIT that Rangers are fairly priced - forfeiting your point - and don't elaborate on the rest of Bharring's good points.

I only wish to note that I used the word "practically."

If an eldar opponent wishes to play an entire army of rangers and nothing else, I'm game. Have fun with that unbound ranger army.

You are holding Eldar to a changing standard. You compare it whichever codex you deem appropriate. Compared to Orks, SM are OP. Compared to Chaos, IG can be OP. Where is the baseline you're working from? Should everything be Chaos tier? Eldar tier? IG teir?

Everything should be on the same bloody tier. Everything should be appropriately costed.

I think the fear of Formations is that you don't need them for most CWE units to be reasonable. Dire Avengers are right as is. Bump them to BS5, and they get stupid.

Trad,
A Wraithlord works out to basically be a CWE dread. For every advantage it has, it has a similar disadvantage. For instance, look at the upgrades. They can pay 5 points to go from A3 S8 to A3 S8 mastercrafted. Dreads are s10 ap2 A4 as long as they have a weapon. Which is notably different. Or they can take Missile Launchers with Flakk for ML+Flakk prices. Or Lascannon equivelents for Lascannon prices. Their upgrades don't change things.

Wyches suck worse, sure. But that doesn't mean Storm Guardians aren't close. They are very clearly garbage tier.

Rangers are Sniper Scouts with 5+ cover vs 6+ cover 4+armor s/t4 krak/frag Grenades and CT. More than fair.

Regarding Rangers, to be fair, compared to equivalent units in other books, like Ratlings or SM Scouts, are actually notably superior, even if the arent amazimg on their own

Marine advantages dont matter much for a sniper unit, and the cover bonus the Eldar unit gets over either is far more useful than anything the others are bringing

Ask Wraithlords how much they like Sternguard poison ammo. I don't have much experience against the Eldar units that aren't the best, but I suspect they're much easier to deal with. Especially for a list like archangel sanguine wing with 20 stormshields.

 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wraithlord.

When you take into account upgrade options, the wraithlord isn't really a bad unit. It's just overshadowed by the broken, OP gak that makes up the rest of the codex.

Is it fairly costed?

Let's compare it to a dreadnought. T8 is virtually equivalent to front, side and rear AV 12. Note that the wraithlord possesses a 3+ armor save that the space marine dreadnought lacks.

In fact, let's waltz on over to the tyrranids codex. A naked carnifex is exactly the same price as a naked wraithlord.

Which would you prefer to field?

What about once upgrades are taken into account?

No, the wraithlord isn't the most OP gak in the eldar codex. But it's probably undercosted relative to other similar models in other codices.

Storm Guardians.

Dark Eldar wyches beg to differ.

Rangers.

Rangers are probably one of the few units in the Eldar codex that are even close to being fairly priced, and even then, they're probably a better version of scouts than other codices for the same or better cost.

Banshees.
Fire Prisms.
Avatar.
All Phoenix Lords.
Autarchs.
Shining Spears.

Before I spend any more time on the rest of this:

Have you compared those units to other similar units in other codices?

You can't just look at those units and compare them to the rest of the broken, OP gak that is the rest of the eldar codex. To determine whether they are under priced, you have to start looking around at other codices and what they pay for similar models.

To the OP:

If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex. Or Tau, for that matter.

1. A carnifex also does more damage. Probably.
2. What the hell does "wyches beg to differ mean". Answer properly or go away.
3. Have you taken your crazy goggles off yet?

In smaller games, a unit of Sniper Scouts in the backfield means a Devilfish or Rhino or Waveserpent can't get to close.

A unit of Rangers can but weep at even AV10s.

 Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:You ADMIT that Rangers are fairly priced - forfeiting your point - and don't elaborate on the rest of Bharring's good points.

I only wish to note that I used the word "practically."

If an eldar opponent wishes to play an entire army of rangers and nothing else, I'm game. Have fun with that unbound ranger army.

You are holding Eldar to a changing standard. You compare it whichever codex you deem appropriate. Compared to Orks, SM are OP. Compared to Chaos, IG can be OP. Where is the baseline you're working from? Should everything be Chaos tier? Eldar tier? IG teir?

Everything should be on the same bloody tier. Everything should be appropriately costed.

That tier is a tactical marine I suppose.