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Bharring wrote:
In smaller games, a unit of Sniper Scouts in the backfield means a Devilfish or Rhino or Waveserpent can't get to close.

A unit of Rangers can but weep at even AV10s.

with the apparent changes to the way grenades work, this will not be true anymore if that FAQ remains unchanged, the Scout unit's ability to harm armor will be greatly diminished. Thats also a relatively secondary, if not tertiary, use for such troops.

Yeah, that does cut their effectiveness a bit. So theyou fall back on S4 in CC to pop rear armor, plus one S6. Not great, but not terrible vs AV10. Rangers are S3, no Grenades.

Aye, the Scouts can still do something where the Rangers cant, but really they're supposed to be shooting stuff across the board and hiding in cover, thats their first job and the Rangers really are both better and cheaper in that primary role.

This is something that BA CC scouts are actually pretty good at. 12 S5 swings + meltabomb on the sarge in my lists.

 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wraithlord.

When you take into account upgrade options, the wraithlord isn't really a bad unit. It's just overshadowed by the broken, OP gak that makes up the rest of the codex.

Is it fairly costed?

Let's compare it to a dreadnought. T8 is virtually equivalent to front, side and rear AV 12. Note that the wraithlord possesses a 3+ armor save that the space marine dreadnought lacks.

In fact, let's waltz on over to the tyrranids codex. A naked carnifex is exactly the same price as a naked wraithlord.

Which would you prefer to field?

What about once upgrades are taken into account?

No, the wraithlord isn't the most OP gak in the eldar codex. But it's probably undercosted relative to other similar models in other codices.

Storm Guardians.

Dark Eldar wyches beg to differ.

Rangers.

Rangers are probably one of the few units in the Eldar codex that are even close to being fairly priced, and even then, they're probably a better version of scouts than other codices for the same or better cost.

Banshees.
Fire Prisms.
Avatar.
All Phoenix Lords.
Autarchs.
Shining Spears.

Before I spend any more time on the rest of this:

Have you compared those units to other similar units in other codices?

You can't just look at those units and compare them to the rest of the broken, OP gak that is the rest of the eldar codex. To determine whether they are under priced, you have to start looking around at other codices and what they pay for similar models.

To the OP:

If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex. Or Tau, for that matter.

Wraith lords are odd. They're great in that they're tough enough to ignore strength 3 and can challenge out that character with a power klaw/fist. On the other hand, they dissolve against many weapons. Sure, they get a 3+ save against small arms fire, but many of the weapons with a strength high enough to warrant shooting at them also ignores that save. They're basically as durable as a dreadnaught against plasma and krak. Things like haywire and melta are worse for the dreadnaught, but fleshbane and poison makes short work of a wraith lord. Being able to get toe in cover is nice though.

The carnifex is considered a pretty bad unit in a pretty bad codex, so the comparison is a bit odd. But speaking as someone who plays with carnifexes about as often as he does wraith lords, I honestly probably get more bang out of my carnifex. The 'fex hits roughly as hard in melee, but he also gets a better hammer of wrath. Brainleech devourers are also probably better for their points than the heavy weapon options on a wraith lord are. The biggest thing, however, is that I find it easier to support my carnifexes than my 'lords. A malanthrope or venomthrope's aura can easily keep my 'fexes alive while I move up the table without costing any "extra" resources. That is to say they can help everyone around them including the 'fexes without having to give up helping my other units. I could theoretically toss psychic buffs on a wraith lord to help him out, but those same buffs are usually needed more by other units. Guide on a squad of guardians or war walkers is more effective than guide on a wraith lord. Tossing fortune on a wraith lord doesn't help as much when you consider that many of the weapons that can hurt him without wounding on 6s also ignore his armor.

A wraith lord is okay for his points, but giving him ranged weapons makes him expensive and not cost effective fast. I like them, but they're very rock paper scissors. If you actually benefit from your high toughness, you're golden. If your opponent can get through your high toughness, you'll probably die very fast.

Wyches VS Storm Guardians
Wyches are also a weird comparison for storm guardians. Wyches are pretty awful right now. I want them to work, but they have pretty big problems. Comparing a bad unit to a worse unit doesn't make the bad unit good. It's like saying, "Oh yeah, no. That fast food is perfectly healthy. Chugging motor oil is way worse for you than a hamburger." That said, storm guardians and wyches are still sort of odd to compare against one another. Despite their pistols and swords, storm guardians don't really function as a melee unit. They're more of melta or flamer unit that you attach a warlock to to give them a singing spear. Outside of formations, you don't really give storm guardians power weapons because they're too expensive and still don't make the storm guardians good at melee. Are they better than wyches at melee? Maybe? If the wyches don't roll a decent drug? Even then, you're comparing a short-ranged shooting unit that isn't really meant for melee and doesn't get a save against a bolter to a melee tar pit unit that doesn't really have much in the way of shooting and doesn't get a save against a bolter but does get a 4+ invul in melee.

Summary: It's sort of apples and oranges, but neither storm guardians or wyches are particularly good at being oranges... The oranges being melee.

Rangers VS scouts.
Rangers and scouts are equally good at sniping things to death. Scouts have the option to take a wider variety of gear for a wider variety of tasks. Whether or not this is useful depends on what you're facing. Rangers get a slightly better cover save than scouts, but scouts get armor saves against smart missiles, flamers, etc and have a higher toughness for whatever that's worth. Rangers are fine for their points and probably under appreciated for what they do. You don't kill things with them (except maybe MCs); you hug objectives with them.


Banshees = bad for their cost, but you can build a list around them to make them playable. So yeah. Genuinely bad for their cost if the best they get is "playable."
Fire Prisms = kind of bad, but mostly because of hull points and the vehicle damage table. More than 100 points for a single shot that probably won't kill a rhino is pretty meh. They're alright at killing marines and terminators, but so is everything. They're bad for their cost, but mostly because of the current rules and meta.
Avatar = Similar to wraith lords. He's okay in a vacuum, but he's roughly as easy to kill as a carnifex and he's pricey. He hits reasonably hard in melee, but plenty of things can trade well with him there as well. Probably "bad" for his points, but mostly because he's hard to get across the table without dying.
All Phoenix Lords = I actually like the phoenix lords. They've been awful historically, but I think they're all actually pretty playable in their current incarnations.
Autarchs = Bad at being beatsticks (shard of anaris can offset this slightly), bad for their points if you're just looking for a portable meltagun, but not awful at either of the above. Plus their reserves bonus is nice. Probably fine for their points.
Shining Spears = bad purely because they lost hit and run. This unit would actually be great at its current price if it wasn't shut down so hard by getting charged.

Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.

I see the two as roughly equal overall.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:You ADMIT that Rangers are fairly priced - forfeiting your point - and don't elaborate on the rest of Bharring's good points.

I only wish to note that I used the word "practically."

If an eldar opponent wishes to play an entire army of rangers and nothing else, I'm game. Have fun with that unbound ranger army.

So you're backtracking? You said practically ONCE, and then proceed to layer on blanket statements with no hint of different levels of OP-ness.
Whatever happened to "Name something in the codex that you don't think is undercosted or somehow OP." That's a very absolutist statement.
Or how about "If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex."

But wait, you've just said that Rangers, a unit in the Eldar codex, are NOT cheesy and bull gak? How can this be? Unless, of course, you have backtracked.

You are holding Eldar to a changing standard. You compare it whichever codex you deem appropriate. Compared to Orks, SM are OP. Compared to Chaos, IG can be OP. Where is the baseline you're working from? Should everything be Chaos tier? Eldar tier? IG teir?

Everything should be on the same bloody tier. Everything should be appropriately costed.

And I ask again - what tier is that? IG tier? SM tier? Eldar tier? CSM tier? Tyranid tier? Which is the correct tier to base things off of?
For all we know, Eldar tier may be correct, and everything is just wrong and should be made stronger.
Alternatively, CSM may be the right level, by which case, most other codexes should be nerfed to the ground.
Which tier is the right tier to base things off?

pm713 wrote:That tier is a tactical marine I suppose.

I have a sneaky suspicion you may be utterly correct. Question is: a BA Tactical Marine, or a Vanilla Tactical Marine?

Bharring wrote:
Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.

I see the two as roughly equal overall.

dont the Rangers get to shoot and run like the IG ratlings?

 Vaktathi wrote:
Regarding Rangers, to be fair, compared to equivalent units in other books, like Ratlings or SM Scouts, are actually notably superior, even if the arent amazimg on their own

Marine advantages dont matter much for a sniper unit, and the cover bonus the Eldar unit gets over either is far more useful than anything the others are bringing

It's also not a direct comparison.

A marine with sniper rifle and camo cloak (conferring a 6+, not 5+ cover save) is 14 ppm.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.

I see the two as roughly equal overall.

dont the Rangers get to shoot and run like the IG ratlings?

Not quite. Rangers can't battle focus if they shoot their sniper rifles because the rifles are heavy weapons. They can shoot and run if they use their pistols instead though.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.

I see the two as roughly equal overall.

dont the Rangers get to shoot and run like the IG ratlings?

No they do not. Battle Focus does not work with Heavy weapons. This is a classic example of why people assume Eldar are even more OP than they already are

--

 Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Regarding Rangers, to be fair, compared to equivalent units in other books, like Ratlings or SM Scouts, are actually notably superior, even if the arent amazimg on their own

Marine advantages dont matter much for a sniper unit, and the cover bonus the Eldar unit gets over either is far more useful than anything the others are bringing

It's also not a direct comparison.

A marine with sniper rifle and camo cloak (conferring a 6+, not 5+ cover save) is 14 ppm.

In a purely sniper role, I'd say that rangers probably win out by dent of having a better cover save. That said, things that hard-counter rangers (flamers, smart missiles, etc.) often time still grant saves to scouts and may actually generate fewer wounds against scouts in the first place. This may seem like nit-picking, but it rather matters since "not dying" is sort of what rangers are good at. Scouts aren't as good at getting cover saves, but they're close, and they still get a 4+ save in many scenarios where they wouldn't get a cover save at all. Being able to spend a little extra to get a missile launcher, while not cheap, is kind of nice too. I'd say reasonable people could call them roughly equivalent.

I dunno, my Eldar collection has never had anything that would have counted as being of the latest meta, all the way back to 4th edition. Plenty of bikes, as it is themed as Corsairs that function like Saim-Hann, but only one Wave Serpent, and no Wraithknight.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.

I see the two as roughly equal overall.

dont the Rangers get to shoot and run like the IG ratlings?

Not quite. Rangers can't battle focus if they shoot their sniper rifles because the rifles are heavy weapons. They can shoot and run if they use their pistols instead though.

ah ok, havent seen them in the field in forever, its getting impossible to remember how special rules interact with everything

I'd say that as people keep insisting ignore cover is everywhere the scouts are better with their amour. Plus if someone charges them (which is possible as I use my sniper units to hold objectives) the scouts have a change. Rangers do not.

If you want to play the equivalent of fox-only no items final destination then just play 30k. All marines and no eldar/tau.

To answer the topic here I think really there are 3 things that eldar need fixing:

scatbikes, undercosted wraithknights, and d-spam

For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.

To say space marines can't compete with the above suggestions is silly. I was under the impression that everyone spammed either grav or melta (or both). Or imperial knights? Doesn't everyone have 2 of those laying around?

 Don Savik wrote:


For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.

Honestly, I've never understood the frustration with generic wraith guard. They murder whatever they shoot at, but that's always been the case. Coming out of webway portals, wraith guard are quite nasty (though they generally only kill one thing before dying). In wave serpents, they're very durable and good at crossing the board, but now we're talking about 300 points per wraith/serpent package. Walking across the table, you can beef up their squad size or toss protective psychic buffs on them, but that get expensive fast.

They're a solid, tough, hard-hitting unit, but they're also priced pretty well to reflect that. Plasma, krak, lascannons, etc will melt through them. Power fists will beat them in melee (though it will take a couple turns). Even a fluffy Iyanden list sporting multiple wraith guard squads can be dealt with pretty handily. If they're in serpents, they're expensive, and you can possibly ground a serpent before they reach you. If they're on foot, you can kill a bunch of them at a range if you have any kind of shooting. Webway portals are nasty, and d-scythes are problematic in that they make assaults against them less desirable, but there's definitely stuff you can do to deal with these guys.

Really with Wraithguard when you take out all the movement ally rubbish I'd probably just go back to the 6th rules and that's really more for simplicity.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:


For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.

Honestly, I've never understood the frustration with generic wraith guard. They murder whatever they shoot at, but that's always been the case. Coming out of webway portals, wraith guard are quite nasty (though they generally only kill one thing before dying). In wave serpents, they're very durable and good at crossing the board, but now we're talking about 300 points per wraith/serpent package. Walking across the table, you can beef up their squad size or toss protective psychic buffs on them, but that get expensive fast.

They're a solid, tough, hard-hitting unit, but they're also priced pretty well to reflect that. Plasma, krak, lascannons, etc will melt through them. Power fists will beat them in melee (though it will take a couple turns). Even a fluffy Iyanden list sporting multiple wraith guard squads can be dealt with pretty handily. If they're in serpents, they're expensive, and you can possibly ground a serpent before they reach you. If they're on foot, you can kill a bunch of them at a range if you have any kind of shooting. Webway portals are nasty, and d-scythes are problematic in that they make assaults against them less desirable, but there's definitely stuff you can do to deal with these guys.

they got a massive firepower boost for zero reason and zero cost increase. Nobody thought they were undergunned before, however they couldnt just point click and delete anything in range at a whim, particularly vehicles. Under their old configuration with a unit of 5, they had about a 1 in 5 chance to explode an AV14 tank and would inflict 1.66 HP's, now they do an average of of nearly 10HP worth of damage (making the Explodes results rather pointless). If we're talking scythes they couldnt even hurt most vehicles before and now theyre amazing at AT.

If you refuse to take the "good" units, Eldar are fine. Bring Banshees and Storm Guardians, for example.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're still strong as even their worst options can be better than the equivalents of other codices. People will thank you, though.

Yes, Banshees are certainly better than Thunderwolves....

As to the original topic, what you play with is irrelevant, it's how you play it. Be a good sport about everything, no one will mind too much what happens.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:


For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.

Honestly, I've never understood the frustration with generic wraith guard. They murder whatever they shoot at, but that's always been the case. Coming out of webway portals, wraith guard are quite nasty (though they generally only kill one thing before dying). In wave serpents, they're very durable and good at crossing the board, but now we're talking about 300 points per wraith/serpent package. Walking across the table, you can beef up their squad size or toss protective psychic buffs on them, but that get expensive fast.

They're a solid, tough, hard-hitting unit, but they're also priced pretty well to reflect that. Plasma, krak, lascannons, etc will melt through them. Power fists will beat them in melee (though it will take a couple turns). Even a fluffy Iyanden list sporting multiple wraith guard squads can be dealt with pretty handily. If they're in serpents, they're expensive, and you can possibly ground a serpent before they reach you. If they're on foot, you can kill a bunch of them at a range if you have any kind of shooting. Webway portals are nasty, and d-scythes are problematic in that they make assaults against them less desirable, but there's definitely stuff you can do to deal with these guys.

they got a massive firepower boost for zero reason and zero cost increase. Nobody thought they were undergunned before, however they couldnt just point click and delete anything in range at a whim, particularly vehicles. Under their old configuration with a unit of 5, they had about a 1 in 5 chance to explode an AV14 tank and would inflict 1.66 HP's, now they do an average of of nearly 10HP worth of damage (making the Explodes results rather pointless). If we're talking scythes they couldnt even hurt most vehicles before and now theyre amazing at AT.

Fair points! I guess I just feel that they're dealt with pretty much the same way as they were before. They did get an unnecessary power boost, but you can still shoot or assault them to death with the right tools. The main difference in how to react to them is that d-scythes are nastier in overwatch than before.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:


For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.

Honestly, I've never understood the frustration with generic wraith guard. They murder whatever they shoot at, but that's always been the case. Coming out of webway portals, wraith guard are quite nasty (though they generally only kill one thing before dying). In wave serpents, they're very durable and good at crossing the board, but now we're talking about 300 points per wraith/serpent package. Walking across the table, you can beef up their squad size or toss protective psychic buffs on them, but that get expensive fast.

They're a solid, tough, hard-hitting unit, but they're also priced pretty well to reflect that. Plasma, krak, lascannons, etc will melt through them. Power fists will beat them in melee (though it will take a couple turns). Even a fluffy Iyanden list sporting multiple wraith guard squads can be dealt with pretty handily. If they're in serpents, they're expensive, and you can possibly ground a serpent before they reach you. If they're on foot, you can kill a bunch of them at a range if you have any kind of shooting. Webway portals are nasty, and d-scythes are problematic in that they make assaults against them less desirable, but there's definitely stuff you can do to deal with these guys.

they got a massive firepower boost for zero reason and zero cost increase.

I think there is a reason actually. In the last book GW seemed to really start pushing rules to better reflect fluff with formations, aspect special rules and such. D weapons are supposed to be the ultimate kind of weapon. Distort weapons literally open a portal to another dimension and get you sucked into it. Seems like D fits that. So they made rules reflect fluff better. Then absolutely messed it up and forgot to see if it was balanced. Like idiots.

Wraithguard have always been devastating...at least that's my experience. In 2nd ed. they auto-penetrate vehicles and everything else is just obliterated (regardless of toughness/wounds) on a simple D6 dice roll.

pm713 wrote:

I think there is a reason actually. In the last book GW seemed to really start pushing rules to better reflect fluff with formations, aspect special rules and such. D weapons are supposed to be the ultimate kind of weapon. Distort weapons literally open a portal to another dimension and get you sucked into it. Seems like D fits that. So they made rules reflect fluff better. Then absolutely messed it up and forgot to see if it was balanced. Like idiots.

I mean I seem to remember 3rd edition wraithcannon being str X, where X either outright removed the model no saves allowed, or dealt 1 wound. I think it was 1-3 did 1 wound or glancing hit, and 4-6 was bye bye or penetrating hit., also not certain if it allowed invulnerable saves or not.

Massed Wraithguard are *supposed* to be devastating. If then open *multiple* Warp distortions onto something, anything, then yes, it should be pretty much auto-destroyed. Even if the individual Warp distortions are relatively small in size.

The problem is that the rules haven't always had this work properly. And it's still on a relatively killable infantry platform.

@pm713 I agree with you, except for the carnifex argument. If I recall a carnifex is t6, and a 4+ and you can give it devourers, crushing claws, etc. The wraithLord is t8, with a 3+ armour save and can take assorted eldar ranged weapons and a decent ccw. I forget if the carnifex has more wounds or can go 12", but based on the toughness difference alone it shows they're fairly equal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Everybody is saying Wraithguard are balanced, and yeah I get they open a black hole or whatever, but str D on anything less than a superheavy is dirty, and you cant deny that. If their weapons were str 10, ap 1, flesh bane and armour bane, sure, that'd be fine. The part that I don't like is the d3 wounds/hull points, practically melting anything in its way.

And they have decent survivability too, they only have a 3+ but they've got t6 so it's hard to even wound them in the first place.

Hilarious thread. Can't wait until things get balanced.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
@pm713 I agree with you, except for the carnifex argument. If I recall a carnifex is t6, and a 4+ and you can give it devourers, crushing claws, etc. The wraithLord is t8, with a 3+ armour save and can take assorted eldar ranged weapons and a decent ccw. I forget if the carnifex has more wounds or can go 12", but based on the toughness difference alone it shows they're fairly equal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Everybody is saying Wraithguard are balanced, and yeah I get they open a black hole or whatever, but str D on anything less than a superheavy is dirty, and you cant deny that. If their weapons were str 10, ap 1, flesh bane and armour bane, sure, that'd be fine. The part that I don't like is the d3 wounds/hull points, practically melting anything in its way.

And they have decent survivability too, they only have a 3+ but they've got t6 so it's hard to even wound them in the first place.

If you roll a land raider up next to them, then you're putting them in their element. If you throw a mob of boyz at them, then you're forcing your opponent to waste quality fire power on cheap models. Basically, the more powerful the thing you bring into their 12" range, the more effective they're going to be. It's difficult to wound them with small arms fire, but they drop plenty fast to plasma, melta, lascannons, krak, etc. They're hard hitting and tough against small arms fire, but they're also slow-moving. you can make them faster by giving them a serpent or something, but that makes them considerably more expensive. You can also tarpit them pretty well. Even a squad of tac marines or boyz or gaunts will tie them up in melee for quite a while, possibly even winning after a few rounds.

They're interesting. They're infantry that require you shoot anti-tank rounds at them to reliably kill them. Despite this, they give up a significant number of points each time you pop one. They're amazing at killing the most expensive things in your army, but you'll trade points with them efficiently using many inexpensive troops units. I'm biased, but I feel like much of the antipathy directed at wraith guard stems from people being intimidated by the "infantry model with a d-weapon" thing and looking no deeper.

Just off the top of my head, a few ways to deal with them:
Marines: Just plasma gun them or shoot them with whatever heavy weapons you brought. They'll die plenty fast to anything with high strength. Grav works well too. Assault terminators with storm shields are risky because you'll lose a lot of points each time they kill one of you, but you'll also wipe them in a single round of combat.

Tyranids: Just tarpit them with gaunts. Maybe mop them up with an MC later.

Orks: See tyranids, but with boyz. You'll actually win combat if you have a power klaw handy.

Eldar: Anything with bladestorm will trade pretty well with wraith guard.

Dark Eldar: Poison weapons make wraith guard as vulnerable as tac marines, but you kill nearly three times the points each time one falls.

Chaos marines: See regular marines.

Daemons: Daemonettes will rend them to death. Plague bearers have no more trouble killing them than they do killing marines. Blood letters are in a similar boat to daemonettes.

Harlequins: Love expensive targets with no invul saves.

Those are just a few factions, but I'm mostly focusing on ways to deal with them using troops alone. Wraith guard are scary, but they have a high price tag and exploitable weaknesses.

For all that defense of the Wraithguard, just remember that a Lascannon Marine is 2 points less. Sure there's more range, but the quality of the shot is considerably less.