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Can orks be played competitively, a lot of people are always asking how do I beat a certain army with orks. So my question is can they win tournaments and not just friendly competition?


Cheers, C66

 Cobra66 wrote:
Can orks be played competitively, a lot of people are always asking how do I beat a certain army with orks. So my question is can they win tournaments and not just friendly competition?


Cheers, C66

no. They can only win if the tournament has non-competitive participants or has non-game related scoring criteria, such as model design, painting and gamesmanship. Other then that, no.

At the moment, Eldar, Necrons, Tau, SM, KDK beat orks without trying to hard. IG and SoB actually beat Orks usually because of the game mechanics and play style. Orks are good against CSM, DE, Nids and BA. Other then that, they don't stand much chance, and Eldar/SM are probably the most common armies at tournaments so your always going to lose.

Orkses never lose a battle, if we win we win, if we die we die fightin' so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die either, cos we come back for annuva go, see!

We can still pull wins vs competitive lists via outscoring them simply because we have more chaff. But it requires luck. As an ork you can't deal with the most common thing around - invisible deathstars. All you can do is either try to tarpit them or ignore them and score. First part doesn't really work now as most deathstars have means of getting out like Hit and Run. The secondpart is tricky.

But there are still a few nice builds for orks. If fw and specifically a 400 pt stompa is allowed. If purely codex than you're likely screwed in a competitive event. Not that you can't win but it requires way more things going your way than if you played marines or eldar.

The thing i'm playing now is a combination of trukk bully boyz + vsg and 30 footslogging boyz with a biker boss and painboy. Some ranged support- lootas, lobbas a small suad of tb.

From what i can tell, you can't really deal with something like invisible twc - your only hope is either they somehow fail or don't get invis (almost impossible with libconclave) or they get unlucky with maelstorm cause you can easilly wipe the rest of the army in 2-3 turns and just roll around grab points. If it's draigostar, pray for the first turn so that you can position your manz closer to the mid but still within VSG. The thing is you still can't reliably kill them due to invis and draigo's 3++ and los. Just do the same thing - kill other stuff and roll around score taking losses and praying for better missions. But if there are just cents with librarians and no significant invul, go for it - you'll drop half the squad even with invis. Haven't faced eldar yet.

Orks and hoard armies are never completely screwed in objective games. Orks have a nasty tendency to take control of 2/3s the table for the first 1-3 turns just by advancing as they normally do, and thus obtain 2/3rd the objectives.

The problem is, recent FAQ's screwed Orks even more -
Auras not emanating from inside vehicles limits the effectiveness of mounted KFF Meks; this FAQ indirectly buffs the M(?)orkanaut (I can never remember which one gets access to the KFF).

 Otto Weston wrote:
The problem is, recent FAQ's screwed Orks even more -
Auras not emanating from inside vehicles limits the effectiveness of mounted KFF Meks; this FAQ indirectly buffs the M(?)orkanaut (I can never remember which one gets access to the KFF).

The thing is the KFF in 7th edition never worked from inside vehicles because GW specifically stated that the KFF in the codex only apply to the vehicle and not everything within 6". Not sure if its because GW had it out against the KFF or that was the original plan for auras inside vehicles but it took until now for them to make that intention clear for all auras instead of this particular one.

Check out this write up from a successful tournament ork player:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/11/15/da-orks-of-legend/

I'm the Top ranked Ork player in the ITC. Orks can indeed do fairly well at tournaments. The codex is really limited, and has hard counters in the meta.

Some of the hard counters.
1) Renegades: One of the most popular armies these days, Renegades are a hard counter for most armies because of their Janky/broken rules, and their ability to go well with demon allies.
2) Tau: busttide wing Tau is devastating to Orks. I've maybe won 2 of the 12 times I've faced it.
3) Psychically buffed deathstars (Wolfstar, Wulfen + Librarius, Bark Bark Star, Double Centstar). All of those are rough games. If I roll enough 6's I might win. Usually I can't.
4) Grimoired Knights or Brass Scorpians. I can put down heavy armor, but once that armor gets a 3++ or even 2++ rerolling 1's it is a bad time for Orks.

Don't get me wrong. Playing Orks is playing on Hard mode. The Codex is limited, the units are overcosted, the Formations generally suck.

The other thing that screws Orks is Kill Points. Thankfully many TO have realized that Kill Point missions are generally decided before dice are rolled, so they often include a secondary that can give you the victory if they are running kill point primary. That wasn't true at Bugeater recently. They had 2 Kill Point primary missions, and a secondary that was more or less irrelevant. So I auto lost twice before dice were rolled. It was a test of my sportsmanship to even play those games. This month I'm going to Sloberknocker which is a regional event to me, so I feel compelled to attend. Unfortunately, They've decided to use Kill Points as the primary in every single mission. One of their missions also has a kill point secondary, and some assassinate tertiary meaning that 21 out of 25 points are about killing stuff. I've already lost that mission because I play Orks. The rest of the missions are an extreme uphill battle for me (10-12 / 25 points are kill points so they are technically winnable). Chances are I finish 1-4.

Bad Mission design like this is related to the scrubbing of "Weak Armies" from the meta. Because you don't see many Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, or Dark Eldar in the competitive meta these days, some TO's have taken to writing Army Comp and missions that ignore them often with penalties written in. I had one TO telling me that his missions favored Eldar "Because it is their time. They have the best Codex and Should Win". But most of them are just clueless because they haven't seen lower tier armies played, and they don't think they could win even if their mission design was better.

We need more Ork players in the Competitive Meta so that TO's write missions for everyone, not just Tau and Eldar.

tag8833 wrote:
I'm the Top ranked Ork player in the ITC. Orks can indeed do fairly well at tournaments. The codex is really limited, and has hard counters in the meta.

Some of the hard counters.
1) Renegades: One of the most popular armies these days, Renegades are a hard counter for most armies because of their Janky/broken rules, and their ability to go well with demon allies.
2) Tau: busttide wing Tau is devastating to Orks. I've maybe won 2 of the 12 times I've faced it.
3) Psychically buffed deathstars (Wolfstar, Wulfen + Librarius, Bark Bark Star, Double Centstar). All of those are rough games. If I roll enough 6's I might win. Usually I can't.
4) Grimoired Knights or Brass Scorpians. I can put down heavy armor, but once that armor gets a 3++ or even 2++ rerolling 1's it is a bad time for Orks.

Don't get me wrong. Playing Orks is playing on Hard mode. The Codex is limited, the units are overcosted, the Formations generally suck.

The other thing that screws Orks is Kill Points. Thankfully many TO have realized that Kill Point missions are generally decided before dice are rolled, so they often include a secondary that can give you the victory if they are running kill point primary. That wasn't true at Bugeater recently. They had 2 Kill Point primary missions, and a secondary that was more or less irrelevant. So I auto lost twice before dice were rolled. It was a test of my sportsmanship to even play those games. This month I'm going to Sloberknocker which is a regional event to me, so I feel compelled to attend. Unfortunately, They've decided to use Kill Points as the primary in every single mission. One of their missions also has a kill point secondary, and some assassinate tertiary meaning that 21 out of 25 points are about killing stuff. I've already lost that mission because I play Orks. The rest of the missions are an extreme uphill battle for me (10-12 / 25 points are kill points so they are technically winnable). Chances are I finish 1-4.

Bad Mission design like this is related to the scrubbing of "Weak Armies" from the meta. Because you don't see many Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, or Dark Eldar in the competitive meta these days, some TO's have taken to writing Army Comp and missions that ignore them often with penalties written in. I had one TO telling me that his missions favored Eldar "Because it is their time. They have the best Codex and Should Win". But most of them are just clueless because they haven't seen lower tier armies played, and they don't think they could win even if their mission design was better.

We need more Ork players in the Competitive Meta so that TO's write missions for everyone, not just Tau and Eldar.

What do you find to be effective for Orks in tournaments? It always seems like a struggle to come up with a solid game plan when Orks generally are worse at shooting than other armies, unable to outpunch other army's dedicated melee units, and our MSU is a struggle with Ork's lack of durability and generally poor morale.

tag8833 wrote:
I had one TO telling me that his missions favored Eldar "Because it is their time. They have the best Codex and Should Win".

Wow, seriously? That's got to take the cake for me as the most biased an ignorant TO I have ever heard of.

tag8833 wrote:
I'm the Top ranked Ork player in the ITC. Orks can indeed do fairly well at tournaments. The codex is really limited, and has hard counters in the meta.

Some of the hard counters.
1) Renegades: One of the most popular armies these days, Renegades are a hard counter for most armies because of their Janky/broken rules, and their ability to go well with demon allies.
2) Tau: busttide wing Tau is devastating to Orks. I've maybe won 2 of the 12 times I've faced it.
3) Psychically buffed deathstars (Wolfstar, Wulfen + Librarius, Bark Bark Star, Double Centstar). All of those are rough games. If I roll enough 6's I might win. Usually I can't.
4) Grimoired Knights or Brass Scorpians. I can put down heavy armor, but once that armor gets a 3++ or even 2++ rerolling 1's it is a bad time for Orks.

Don't get me wrong. Playing Orks is playing on Hard mode. The Codex is limited, the units are overcosted, the Formations generally suck.

The other thing that screws Orks is Kill Points. Thankfully many TO have realized that Kill Point missions are generally decided before dice are rolled, so they often include a secondary that can give you the victory if they are running kill point primary. That wasn't true at Bugeater recently. They had 2 Kill Point primary missions, and a secondary that was more or less irrelevant. So I auto lost twice before dice were rolled. It was a test of my sportsmanship to even play those games. This month I'm going to Sloberknocker which is a regional event to me, so I feel compelled to attend. Unfortunately, They've decided to use Kill Points as the primary in every single mission. One of their missions also has a kill point secondary, and some assassinate tertiary meaning that 21 out of 25 points are about killing stuff. I've already lost that mission because I play Orks. The rest of the missions are an extreme uphill battle for me (10-12 / 25 points are kill points so they are technically winnable). Chances are I finish 1-4.

Bad Mission design like this is related to the scrubbing of "Weak Armies" from the meta. Because you don't see many Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, or Dark Eldar in the competitive meta these days, some TO's have taken to writing Army Comp and missions that ignore them often with penalties written in. I had one TO telling me that his missions favored Eldar "Because it is their time. They have the best Codex and Should Win". But most of them are just clueless because they haven't seen lower tier armies played, and they don't think they could win even if their mission design was better.

We need more Ork players in the Competitive Meta so that TO's write missions for everyone, not just Tau and Eldar.

And this is why 40K is a total fail in a tournament setting. Every army should be viable, every army should have the same chance. I am just getting back to 40K and being a Nid player and was going to start Orks as well, I see, why bother again. While I don't play tournaments, just friendly games, I already encountered "I will not play that way since I can't win". So now I have to play other people who have an easier time to win than I do and I am playing by the rules. ARGH.

So no Ork buy for me, and not buying any Nids either. Just astound when people say they play by the rules, but then say, "nope will not play that, or play that way". So much for playing by the rules.

Wow this is being quite informative....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So would you guys say that the orks are the least competitive army in 7th edition??

 Cobra66 wrote:
Wow this is being quite informative....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So would you guys say that the orks are the least competitive army in 7th edition??

I'm not sure I'd go that far.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Cobra66 wrote:
Wow this is being quite informative....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So would you guys say that the orks are the least competitive army in 7th edition??

I'm not sure I'd go that far.

I might they are certainly down near the bottom and have been for far too long.

It's a shame tau and eldar get all the limelight.

 Cobra66 wrote:

So would you guys say that the orks are the least competitive army in 7th edition??

No. They're in the middle tier, better than Chaos Marines, Tyranids, Blood Angels or Dark Eldar and arguably a couple of others. The problem is the middle tier is meaningless. The top five or six armies are the only ones that currently win in major tournaments. You can play Eldar, Marines, Necrons, Daemons, or to a lesser extent Tau or Admech War Convocation or you can stick to non-competitive play.

Had a Ork dreadmob list win one of our fairly competitive monthly events, have had green tide lists and mech stompa lists place in top three and win occasionally. I hate to say it but maybe you should look into how you are fielding your orks.

mm, the same green tide that was erased from the new updated book so you no longer can use?

Also the 400 pts stompa is a hot topic and not everyone will acept it sadly.

Franarok wrote:
mm, the same green tide that was erased from the new updated book so you no longer can use?

Also the 400 pts stompa is a hot topic and not everyone will acept it sadly.

I believe the NEW FAQ does specify older supplements still work in 7th. I believe it was somewhere under OOP units and codexes. I could be wrong on that though.

Yeah how dare the Orks get a Stompa priced around what it should be. For shame. Really though the Big Mek stompa is meh even at 400 points. You get a lifta dropa and single gaze of mork hit that both have to hit at BS2. If you want some good dakka then you gotta either replace his D meele weapon for $50 for the s10 ap2 large blast cannon, or buy a totally new one for 100 points. I mean it is a good unit and worth bringing, but its not even close to game breaking against mid-top tier codexes.

die toten hosen wrote:
Had a Ork dreadmob list win one of our fairly competitive monthly events, have had green tide lists and mech stompa lists place in top three and win occasionally. I hate to say it but maybe you should look into how you are fielding your orks.

I don't play competitively and I don't mean to be antagonising but by the sound of it your local tournament might not be as competitive as you imagine. The Dread Mob moves 6" a turn, has almost no high strength firepower and completely falls apart against grav, melta, haywire, MSU and deathstars (among other things) so I can't imagine it fairing well against Eldar, SM, Tau and AdMech. As for Greentide, though its legal to use again it's never seemed that great to me and my regular CSM opponent doesn't struggle to kill or outplay it. I think if Orks were actually good on the competitive scene we would have seen it by now so saying learn to play/get good doesn't have much to back it up.

 Vankraken wrote:
What do you find to be effective for Orks in tournaments? It always seems like a struggle to come up with a solid game plan when Orks generally are worse at shooting than other armies, unable to outpunch other army's dedicated melee units, and our MSU is a struggle with Ork's lack of durability and generally poor morale.

Depending on the Missions different Ork builds work better or worse. I've been playing lots of ITC missions. For those I run an MSU list based around Buzzgob's Stompa, and solo deff koptas.
It is usually something like this:



I've been top Orks at most tourneys I've been to this year (Which isn't that big of an accomplishment because few Orks tend to show up usually). At the 2 Events where someone else ran top Orks, the One event featured a player with Badrukk's Flashgitz and Buzzgob's Stompa. Another had Bully Boyz in Trukks + Mogrok's Bossboyz, and all the Big Meks had KFF's or MFF's (Note the MFF can't be taken anymore, so that list was midly illegal). At the GT I ran, the Top Ork player was running Zhardsnark + 5-6 squads of 5 Warbikers + Nob (PK) and a Void Shield, and Buzzgob's Stompa.

All of those lists have hard counters in the field. Most of them share TAU as a hard counter, though the Flashgitz have a chance to screw with tau if they roll good with AP.

Orks have some very usable components (Buzzgob's Stompa, Zhardsnark, Warbikers, Tankbustas in Trukks, Lobbas, KMK's, Bullyboyz, DLS Warbosses). If you build a list focusing on those components and practice alot you can be really good. I've even had pretty decent success with Trukk Boyz, though the secret sauce there is making sure each squad of boyz has a Mek in there to each challenges. Otherwise the nob gets challenged out and the unit is mainly wasted.

Davor wrote:
And this is why 40K is a total fail in a tournament setting. Every army should be viable, every army should have the same chance. I am just getting back to 40K and being a Nid player and was going to start Orks as well, I see, why bother again. While I don't play tournaments, just friendly games, I already encountered "I will not play that way since I can't win". So now I have to play other people who have an easier time to win than I do and I am playing by the rules. ARGH.

So no Ork buy for me, and not buying any Nids either. Just astound when people say they play by the rules, but then say, "nope will not play that, or play that way". So much for playing by the rules.

I feel like that is incredibly wrongheaded and naive. The issue is people who run lower tier armies not standing up for their army and participating in playing in or running events. You can't complain about the outcome if you don't vote. A few minor rules tweaks or mission tweaks keep Orks competitive with other armies. You've just got to push TO's to do a better job when they screw up (as we all do). Offer to help out. Help playtest missions. If they aren't open to feedback, run your own events. It isn't that hard. Just make sure you don't fall into the same trap. My opinion is that all TO's should be willing to learn from the experiences of Others, and when you find a problematic set of missions it is inevitably coming from either a 1st time TO, or someone who is rejecting the wisdom of the community.

There are a handful of people that skip our tournaments. Most of them are intimidated, because "Competitive players are evil creatures with red skin and horns, and Tournament 40K is no fun for anyone". They've heard all about "Competitive play" but they haven't participated in it. For them Competitive play and players are just a fantastical myth. Most of those players like to divide our community by labeling certain opponents "Competitive players" and refusing to play them. The fascinating thing is that they tend to get it incredibly wrong. I'm the most "Competitive Player" around these days, and they all love playing me. The people they've named "Competitive Players" are the people that either don't attend events for the same reason as them, or tend to perform relatively poorly at events.

There is also a subset of players that can't handle losing. They tend to skip tournaments because they prefer to manipulate rules and matchups in their favor. We call them "Baby Seal Clubbers". It takes a significant amount of work from the other involved players in our community to help these players recognize how to participate more positively in our local 40K community.

 Cobra66 wrote:
So would you guys say that the orks are the least competitive army in 7th edition??

Absolutely not. Dark Eldar are the Weakest codex out there, and depending on missions Tyranids are even worse. The problem isn't so much the Ork Codex. The problem is a set of undercosted/ broken rules and combos. Demons, Renegades, and Eldar are by far the most powerful codexes with Tau, War Convo, and Imperial deathstars not far behind. That is where the problems are. If you fix those things, everything else becomes viable again. Unfortunately, the brokenness of those armies are driving other armies out of competitive play which means that they are providing a majority of feedback to TO's, and the result is tourneys that cater more and more towards the people who run those lists. Run a Community Comp style event, and tell me that Orks are the weakest Codex. Or run events at 1500 with no formations, super heavies, or Battle Brothers, and 2 detachments, and tell me that Orks are the weakest. It all depends how you play.

Davor wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
I'm the Top ranked Ork player in the ITC. Orks can indeed do fairly well at tournaments. The codex is really limited, and has hard counters in the meta.

Some of the hard counters.
1) Renegades: One of the most popular armies these days, Renegades are a hard counter for most armies because of their Janky/broken rules, and their ability to go well with demon allies.
2) Tau: busttide wing Tau is devastating to Orks. I've maybe won 2 of the 12 times I've faced it.
3) Psychically buffed deathstars (Wolfstar, Wulfen + Librarius, Bark Bark Star, Double Centstar). All of those are rough games. If I roll enough 6's I might win. Usually I can't.
4) Grimoired Knights or Brass Scorpians. I can put down heavy armor, but once that armor gets a 3++ or even 2++ rerolling 1's it is a bad time for Orks.

Don't get me wrong. Playing Orks is playing on Hard mode. The Codex is limited, the units are overcosted, the Formations generally suck.

The other thing that screws Orks is Kill Points. Thankfully many TO have realized that Kill Point missions are generally decided before dice are rolled, so they often include a secondary that can give you the victory if they are running kill point primary. That wasn't true at Bugeater recently. They had 2 Kill Point primary missions, and a secondary that was more or less irrelevant. So I auto lost twice before dice were rolled. It was a test of my sportsmanship to even play those games. This month I'm going to Sloberknocker which is a regional event to me, so I feel compelled to attend. Unfortunately, They've decided to use Kill Points as the primary in every single mission. One of their missions also has a kill point secondary, and some assassinate tertiary meaning that 21 out of 25 points are about killing stuff. I've already lost that mission because I play Orks. The rest of the missions are an extreme uphill battle for me (10-12 / 25 points are kill points so they are technically winnable). Chances are I finish 1-4.

Bad Mission design like this is related to the scrubbing of "Weak Armies" from the meta. Because you don't see many Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, or Dark Eldar in the competitive meta these days, some TO's have taken to writing Army Comp and missions that ignore them often with penalties written in. I had one TO telling me that his missions favored Eldar "Because it is their time. They have the best Codex and Should Win". But most of them are just clueless because they haven't seen lower tier armies played, and they don't think they could win even if their mission design was better.

We need more Ork players in the Competitive Meta so that TO's write missions for everyone, not just Tau and Eldar.

And this is why 40K is a total fail in a tournament setting. Every army should be viable, every army should have the same chance. I am just getting back to 40K and being a Nid player and was going to start Orks as well, I see, why bother again. While I don't play tournaments, just friendly games, I already encountered "I will not play that way since I can't win". So now I have to play other people who have an easier time to win than I do and I am playing by the rules. ARGH.

So no Ork buy for me, and not buying any Nids either. Just astound when people say they play by the rules, but then say, "nope will not play that, or play that way". So much for playing by the rules.

Personally, I've always found the idea of competitive 40k sort of strange. There have always been armies that do significantly better or worse than others, especially if the more powerful armies are taking their best options. Competitive play is a great way to make sure the more powerful armies show up and bring their most powerful options. The way I see it, the game really wasn't made with highly competitive games in mind but rather with casual play as the core focus. Eldar and chaos marines can have a solid game against one another if you build your list with their list in mind and intentionally set up a game that will be close and interesting.

Not that I think tournaments and competitive play should be dismissed. Many people enjoy bringing power lists, and that's totally fine. But a tournament IS the place that you'll see power lists. If Tau are really good at the moment, then expect to see Tau. If a new Ork codex drops and suddenly makes orkz the bees knees, expect to see orks. By all means, enjoy tournaments and non-tournaments. Just don't be surprised if your relatively weak list gets beaten by a relatively strong list. If you're playing basketball and decide that three-pointers are the only way to score points, don't be surprised when the team that's good at three-pointers beats the team that's only good at layups.

40k is a game that seems to strongly encourage beer and pretzels type play with tons of factions and options to portray a variety of scenarios. This is all great for casual and narrative play and not so great for competitive play. So enjoy going to tournaments. Just don't be surprised when you find out 40k is more akin to Yahtzee than Chess.

I will never understand compitive play ever. You spend 50$+ on a model hours of paint and glue and look at it for months if not years. Then play with it for hours..... Looks matter so much more then effect, but I was also called a fashion hunter in monster hunter 4u.

tag8833 wrote:
Depending on the Missions different Ork builds work better or worse. I've been playing lots of ITC missions. For those I run an MSU list based around Buzzgob's Stompa, and solo deff koptas.
It is usually something like this:

Spoiler:

CAD #1:
Mek <- Rides with boyz to eat challenges

Big Mek (Da Finkin Kap, KFF)

5 Tankbustas in a Trukk (Ram)
5 Tankbustas in a Trukk (Ram)
5 Tankbustas in a Trukk (Ram)

9 Boyz + Nob (PK, BP) in a Trukk (Ram)
9 Boyz + Nob (PK, BP) in a Trukk (Ram)

Deffkopta (Rokkit)
Deffkopta (Rokkit)
Deffkopta (Rokkit)

5 Lootas <- Go in the Stompa
5 Lootas <- Go in the Stompa unless I need Objective secured
5 Lobbas (5 Ammo Runts)

Buzzgob's Stompa (2 Deff Kannons)

Void Shield (3 Shields)

CAD #2:
Mek <- Rides with boyz to eat challenges

Big Mek <- Usually rides in stompa. Sometimes deploys with Lobbas.

Gretchin <- Goes in stompa if I need it objective secured
Gretchin

Deffkopta (Rokkit)
Deffkopta (Rokkit)


In games where an opponent can get through the void shield easily, I deploy the Stompa, the Void Shield, and the Lobbas and reserve the rest. I almost always outflank the Deffkoptas.

I've been top Orks at most tourneys I've been to this year (Which isn't that big of an accomplishment because few Orks tend to show up usually). At the 2 Events where someone else ran top Orks, the One event featured a player with Badrukk's Flashgitz and Buzzgob's Stompa. Another had Bully Boyz in Trukks + Mogrok's Bossboyz, and all the Big Meks had KFF's or MFF's (Note the MFF can't be taken anymore, so that list was midly illegal). At the GT I ran, the Top Ork player was running Zhardsnark + 5-6 squads of 5 Warbikers + Nob (PK) and a Void Shield, and Buzzgob's Stompa.

All of those lists have hard counters in the field. Most of them share TAU as a hard counter, though the Flashgitz have a chance to screw with tau if they roll good with AP.

Orks have some very usable components (Buzzgob's Stompa, Zhardsnark, Warbikers, Tankbustas in Trukks, Lobbas, KMK's, Bullyboyz, DLS Warbosses). If you build a list focusing on those components and practice alot you can be really good. I've even had pretty decent success with Trukk Boyz, though the secret sauce there is making sure each squad of boyz has a Mek in there to each challenges. Otherwise the nob gets challenged out and the unit is mainly wasted.

Thank you for replying. Most of that seems to be what I would expect for the most part. The Flash Gitz formation is surprising to me due to how clunky it would be to roll 21 separate assault 3 weapons with master crafted but it pleases me to see the gitz do well in something (probably my favorite unit in the dex and they often surprise me with their results). Personally I run a lot of Blitz Brigades in my casual and tournament practice games which have mixed results as mostly its the Boyz that tend to underperform and in general lacking the tools to crack SHW/GMC when needed.

Would someone be willing to post a list of the armies from most competitive to least competitive???

I did one time beat kdk with ork's. Mostly because of my green tide tactic against his small numbers of demons. But the problem was that his ally was a chaos player and used a land raider and some berserkers to make quick work of my main force. I use ork's more often then my guard nos mostly because of quantity.

 Cobra66 wrote:
Would someone be willing to post a list of the armies from most competitive to least competitive???

Everyone would give you a slightly different list, so just look at the statistics of who's winning in tournaments. The charts on this site will help put the competition into perspective:
http://variancehammer.com/2016/02/19/number-crunching-the-lvo/

 Vankraken wrote:
Thank you for replying. Most of that seems to be what I would expect for the most part. The Flash Gitz formation is surprising to me due to how clunky it would be to roll 21 separate assault 3 weapons with master crafted but it pleases me to see the gitz do well in something (probably my favorite unit in the dex and they often surprise me with their results). Personally I run a lot of Blitz Brigades in my casual and tournament practice games which have mixed results as mostly its the Boyz that tend to underperform and in general lacking the tools to crack SHW/GMC when needed.

The flashgitz formation is certainly unweildy to the point of being nearly unplayable. It is an example of how the Ork formations were never playtested, because one game playing with 21 mastercrafted assault 3 guns would convince you to alter the formation to make it more usable.

The guy who runs that list is the owner of a local game store, and close buddy of mine. The way he does it is he has 5 sets of 3 dice with each set being a different color. He keeps them in a cup with a lid, and removes the lid when it is time to roll. Then he grabs one miss of each color and puts it back into the cup, and moves the other misses to the side, and rerolls the cup. It is unwieldy, but he's perfected it so that he does that 4 times per turn, and gets all 20 flashgitz rolled, then there is just Badrukk who rolls separately.

I've seen Blitzbrigade do quite well. I now own 5 battle wagons, but 1 is still unbuilt, so I plan to try it out at some point. It feels like there would be a way to make it work. On the other hand, so long as Ghostkiel wing exists in its current form, battlewagons are far less viable. The other thing to worry about is the double hellstorm Skathach Wraithknight. Somehow it slipped past the ITC rules team and didn't get placed on the Banned list, and because they haven't taken the time to rule on any of it's rules confusions it has different rules at every event. Sometimes it moves 12". Sometimes it Moves 18". Sometimes it can't be locked in CC.

Some day I'll finish building my 45 lootas and 45 Tankbustas and field them all at once. I haven't tried it yet, but the Math hammer is strong with them.

Now that the Armored Ammo Containers exist, I have an easy way for them to re-roll ones as well.

No