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Of course Orks can win! I've seen an Ork CAD beat a Tau Hunter Contingent. The secret is to defy the meta (and have no small amount of luck). Most net lists are designed to bring down other net lists. If you do something completely out of the ordinary, people who spend countless hours studying how to beat the top lists have no idea how to deal with it. The afore-mentioned Ork CAD contained a max-sized unit of Flash Gitz and three Smasha Gunz. That wasn't the whole list, obviously, but those two were the highlights. The Flash Gitz spread out around two objectives, holding one and bubblewrapping the other so the Tau player couldn't take it. Couple that with so LOS-blocking terrain forcing the Tau player to get into melee range of his Boyz, and the match ended up not even being close. Again, there was a lot of luck involved, but the Ork player was never out of the game against an opponent that according to the internet should have "won during the army selection phase" to paraphrase a common sentiment. I also had more fun watching this match than any I've seen in quite some time.

 EnTyme wrote:
Of course Orks can win! I've seen an Ork CAD beat a Tau Hunter Contingent. The secret is to defy the meta (and have no small amount of luck). Most net lists are designed to bring down other net lists. If you do something completely out of the ordinary, people who spend countless hours studying how to beat the top lists have no idea how to deal with it. The afore-mentioned Ork CAD contained a max-sized unit of Flash Gitz and three Smasha Gunz. That wasn't the whole list, obviously, but those two were the highlights. The Flash Gitz spread out around two objectives, holding one and bubblewrapping the other so the Tau player couldn't take it. Couple that with so LOS-blocking terrain forcing the Tau player to get into melee range of his Boyz, and the match ended up not even being close. Again, there was a lot of luck involved, but the Ork player was never out of the game against an opponent that according to the internet should have "won during the army selection phase" to paraphrase a common sentiment. I also had more fun watching this match than any I've seen in quite some time.

No.....that was the Tau player sucking, not the ork player being good.

Flashgitz die...to everything, the Tau player could have literally sat out of range of the snazz gunz with some Broadsides and just taken them out with LOS immune weapons. Or, he could have simply blown them up with anything that ignores cover (IE EVERYTHING IN The TAU LIST) 2 marklights and suddenly all of those weapons with ANY AP are instantly wounding those targets.

Flashgitz are insanely expensive nobs with a gun that can either be good or utter trash. they have a 6+ armor save that can not be improved and when they aren't in cover or are being hit with Ignores cover weapons, they die in droves.

Smasha gunz? 3 guns that have RANDOM 2D6 strength with a range of 36? are good? really? I think realistically the Tau player was trash, or purposely losing.

SemperMortis wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Of course Orks can win! I've seen an Ork CAD beat a Tau Hunter Contingent. The secret is to defy the meta (and have no small amount of luck). Most net lists are designed to bring down other net lists. If you do something completely out of the ordinary, people who spend countless hours studying how to beat the top lists have no idea how to deal with it. The afore-mentioned Ork CAD contained a max-sized unit of Flash Gitz and three Smasha Gunz. That wasn't the whole list, obviously, but those two were the highlights. The Flash Gitz spread out around two objectives, holding one and bubblewrapping the other so the Tau player couldn't take it. Couple that with so LOS-blocking terrain forcing the Tau player to get into melee range of his Boyz, and the match ended up not even being close. Again, there was a lot of luck involved, but the Ork player was never out of the game against an opponent that according to the internet should have "won during the army selection phase" to paraphrase a common sentiment. I also had more fun watching this match than any I've seen in quite some time.

No.....that was the Tau player sucking, not the ork player being good.

Flashgitz die...to everything, the Tau player could have literally sat out of range of the snazz gunz with some Broadsides and just taken them out with LOS immune weapons. Or, he could have simply blown them up with anything that ignores cover (IE EVERYTHING IN The TAU LIST) 2 marklights and suddenly all of those weapons with ANY AP are instantly wounding those targets.

Flashgitz are insanely expensive nobs with a gun that can either be good or utter trash. they have a 6+ armor save that can not be improved and when they aren't in cover or are being hit with Ignores cover weapons, they die in droves.

Smasha gunz? 3 guns that have RANDOM 2D6 strength with a range of 36? are good? really? I think realistically the Tau player was trash, or purposely losing.

Confirmation bias at its finest. Orks lose? Obviously, orks always lose. Orks win? Clearly the opponent sucked, thus confirming orks always lose.

the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Of course Orks can win! I've seen an Ork CAD beat a Tau Hunter Contingent. The secret is to defy the meta (and have no small amount of luck). Most net lists are designed to bring down other net lists. If you do something completely out of the ordinary, people who spend countless hours studying how to beat the top lists have no idea how to deal with it. The afore-mentioned Ork CAD contained a max-sized unit of Flash Gitz and three Smasha Gunz. That wasn't the whole list, obviously, but those two were the highlights. The Flash Gitz spread out around two objectives, holding one and bubblewrapping the other so the Tau player couldn't take it. Couple that with so LOS-blocking terrain forcing the Tau player to get into melee range of his Boyz, and the match ended up not even being close. Again, there was a lot of luck involved, but the Ork player was never out of the game against an opponent that according to the internet should have "won during the army selection phase" to paraphrase a common sentiment. I also had more fun watching this match than any I've seen in quite some time.

No.....that was the Tau player sucking, not the ork player being good.

Flashgitz die...to everything, the Tau player could have literally sat out of range of the snazz gunz with some Broadsides and just taken them out with LOS immune weapons. Or, he could have simply blown them up with anything that ignores cover (IE EVERYTHING IN The TAU LIST) 2 marklights and suddenly all of those weapons with ANY AP are instantly wounding those targets.

Flashgitz are insanely expensive nobs with a gun that can either be good or utter trash. they have a 6+ armor save that can not be improved and when they aren't in cover or are being hit with Ignores cover weapons, they die in droves.

Smasha gunz? 3 guns that have RANDOM 2D6 strength with a range of 36? are good? really? I think realistically the Tau player was trash, or purposely losing.

Confirmation bias at its finest. Orks lose? Obviously, orks always lose. Orks win? Clearly the opponent sucked, thus confirming orks always lose.

Actually it isn't confirmation bias, what it is though is analysis of the units that the ork player said he took compared to the units that the Tau player has the option of taking in a hunter cadre.

A Flash Git unit maxed out costs 220pts, for that you get 10 models with 2w each, they have a rng 24 gun that is assault 3 and has AP D6. A unit of 3 Smasha Gunz (without extra grots) costs you 90pts, for that your getting 3 guns with rng 36 S4+D6 and AP1 (which doesnt help vs Tau that much since they usually don't have vehicles) In a 1,500pt list you just spent a bit over 1/5th your points on 2 units that can be EASILY out ranged by Tau, can be EASILY destroyed by Tau and have leadership issues on top of everything else. Also, how close were these 2 Objectives where a unit of Flash gitz could hold 1 and bubble wrap a second one? A maxed unit is only 10 models, unless your talking about the ridiculous flash gitz formation, which if your using that then your spending 550pts (Minimum) on 21 models, of which 20 have a 6+ armor save with no way of improving it. If you can win a competitive game with the flashgitz formation then I applaud you, but I also have to question the skill level of your opponent.

SemperMortis wrote:

... 20 have a 6+ armor save with no way of improving it. If you can win a competitive game with the flashgitz formation then I applaud you, but I also have to question the skill level of your opponent.

They can't take a better armour save but they can get 5+++ with a painboy and a 5++ from a kff. They can also ride a battlewagon as a dedicated transport. Armour saves aren't all that, with AP being common enough.

 SolarCross wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

... 20 have a 6+ armor save with no way of improving it. If you can win a competitive game with the flashgitz formation then I applaud you, but I also have to question the skill level of your opponent.

They can't take a better armour save but they can get 5+++ with a painboy and a 5++ from a kff. They can also ride a battlewagon as a dedicated transport. Armour saves aren't all that, with AP being common enough.

So, take a 220pt unit (10 Flashgitz) Give them a painboy, a Big Mek with a KFF and battlewagon as a dedicated transport, im assuming we are equipping that battlewagon as well, Ram, 4 Big shootas (or rokkitz your preference) and maybe a kannon? So you are taking a 220pt unit that on average can put out 30 S5 AP(D6) shots a turn and upgrading it with 2 more HQ choices, totaling another 135pts and putting those into a battlewagon with some basic equipment which itself costs 145pts.

So for 1 unit of Flash gitz your willing to spend 220+135+145 = 500pts. That rather expensive unit has AV14/12/10 with a 5++ to protect it. and a 5+ FNP if it explodes to help minimize the dmg.

500pts for a unit that can put out 30 S5 AP (D6) shots, 12 S5 AP5 Shots and 1 S8 AP3 shot a turn, ALL at BS 2.

That is why orks suck, even if we had BS10 and were almost guaranteed hits with EVERYTHING that would still not be that much dakka for 500pts, nor is it overly survivable. Eldar for 500pts can field about 18 Scatter bikes. They can put out 72 S6 AP6 shots a turn At BS4 or in other words 48 S6 hits a turn (on average) They have 3+ Base and a 4+ jink, they are SIGNIFICANTLY faster AND with the exception of that single Kannon and the Big shootas if you took those, they can out range all the orks weapons listed above.

Which would you take? Which do you think is more durable? which do you think would win you more games?

My friend who runs Badrukk's Flashgitz formation with his big mek Stompa beats tau from time to time. He has a better ability to do it that I do with my more balanced Ork list. I've also seen Zhardsnark lists do OK if they get 1st turn, and the Tau don't have enough marker lights.

I've definitely beat tau players, but I either need them to run a specific list, or not understand how my army works. Riptide Wing is the biggest problem right now. The fact that it appears in every Tau list, and more and more non-Tau lists means I need to go on a run making invuls to stand a chance.

Riptide wing is a failure of game design that is notable. There is no tax, it gives enormous benefits, and it is a formation for a model that is already undercosted and auto take. At some point I expect TO's to develop the courage to fix it. If you remove the ability to shoot twice it is still one of the best formations in the game, and an auto take in most Tau armies, but it isn't quite as dominant against armies without psychic powers.

tag8833 wrote:
My friend who runs Badrukk's Flashgitz formation with his big mek Stompa beats tau from time to time. He has a better ability to do it that I do with my more balanced Ork list. I've also seen Zhardsnark lists do OK if they get 1st turn, and the Tau don't have enough marker lights.

I've definitely beat tau players, but I either need them to run a specific list, or not understand how my army works. Riptide Wing is the biggest problem right now. The fact that it appears in every Tau list, and more and more non-Tau lists means I need to go on a run making invuls to stand a chance.

Riptide wing is a failure of game design that is notable. There is no tax, it gives enormous benefits, and it is a formation for a model that is already undercosted and auto take. At some point I expect TO's to develop the courage to fix it. If you remove the ability to shoot twice it is still one of the best formations in the game, and an auto take in most Tau armies, but it isn't quite as dominant against armies without psychic powers.

Badrukks flashgitz + Big Mek Stompa = what ? around 1k points? How the hell does he win anything with that? If he is playing a 1500 point game then he is sinking 2/3rds of his points into 2 units, 1 is easy to kill, has very little dakka and short range. The other is a cheap stompa with even less dakka then a normal Stompa, unless he is upgrading to more deff Kannons, which cost more points I believe. regardless, I dont know how your friend wins against Tau with that list.

SemperMortis wrote:
Badrukks flashgitz + Big Mek Stompa = what ? around 1k points? How the hell does he win anything with that? If he is playing a 1500 point game then he is sinking 2/3rds of his points into 2 units, 1 is easy to kill, has very little dakka and short range. The other is a cheap stompa with even less dakka then a normal Stompa, unless he is upgrading to more deff Kannons, which cost more points I believe. regardless, I dont know how your friend wins against Tau with that list.

Yes, it is a ton of points. He plays that at 1850 point tournaments. The Stompa has 2 Deff Kannons when he runs it. 10 Flashgitz go in the Stompa. Badrukk and the rest of the flashgitz go in a battlewagon. Then he usually runs a battlewagon full of tankbustas, and a Trukk or 2 with boyz, and a Void Shield.

It isn't a very balanced list, but it works better than I ever would have expected. He's had games where he rolled good on AP and killed 2 riptides in 1 turn. Because he is such a shooty gunline he doesn't lose his stompa nearly as often as I do. On the other hand, he struggles more on progressive missions than I do because he has 2 big hard points, but not nearly as many scoring units, but he does tend to win on kill points.

Blitz Brigade is quite good against most Tau lists. Granted its not amazing against OSC or Stormsurges (then again what is?). Tau lacks good anti AV14 from long range and if they are fielding fusion guns on foot then they become a high priority target (along with those markerlights). By the time drop fusions come in you should be in position or already into the enemy lines.

As for running Flash Gitz if your putting that much (painboy + KFF Big Mek) into keeping them alive then your doing something wrong. What keeps the gitz alive isn't making them more durable (using cover is still a smart idea) but having other bigger threats to take the heat off them. Most people won't bother with the shooty Ork unit when they have MANz missiles, biker mobs, Trukk boyz with PK nob, tankbusta trukks/wagons, etc to contend with. Also Gitz are fairly resistant to vehicle explosions by the virtue of having multiple wounds which means an explosion wounds 10 gitz enough to kill 2.5 gitz before armor saves which should knock that down to just 2 dead gitz. Also if your determined to keep a Battlwagon alive then put a KFF on a bike and have him ride along side 2-3 Battlewagons to clip each one with its 6" bubble. Way more efficient than just riding inside the wagon with the KFF.

I've won libconclave, grav cents and honor guard yesterday running bully boyz and 30 footslogging choppaboyz. Cents were not really a huge threat but invisible honor guards with maces were brutal. Even though they had no ap2, they killed 30 fnp boyz in 2 cc phases and almost drownder bully boyz in wounds. But so many pk were boynd to go through invis eventually - and he didn't get 4++. Though he got re-roll to saves from the new marine tree and 30 boyz didn't put a single wound in there.