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So, I have an idea for a time traveling army from one of the possible futures of the galaxy that traveled back in time to stop [insert bad guy here], where the Imperium and Tau joined forces in the face of a greater enemy, and slowly over time the cultures mixed. In this alternate universe, the xenophobia was toned down, being directed specifically at certain races, and not just non-humans. This is caused by the Empire being lead by the surviving Primarchs, Vulkan and Rogal Dorn, Dorn being toned down by the lesson learned during the heresy. This has caused a vastly different Imperium, and now the Tau serve alongside infantry, and the Mechanicum issues hybrid technologies. So, since I can't ally my tau well with Imperium forces, I was going to run Tau as Veterans alongside regular guardsmen and guard vehicles, so that they can ally with space marines, who I would paint and model to be in Tau-Astartes hybrid power armor. Obviously, in lore, pretty much everyone would hate them, but as an outside force and modeling perspective, what do you think?

Honestly...it's boring and uninteresting.

Quite apart from the whole fluff break going on here, this all just feels very contrived and overpowered in terms of writing. When you break it down, you have a Mary Sue timeline, where your timeline has Primarchs and everyone is friends with each other and oh we also have time travel. There's nothing interesting going on, just a case of hand picking the cool and best bits from a few factions and throwing them together in an lopsided thing. there's no story here, no character or personality apart from "I want this from this race and this from this race..."

Good thing you managed to glimpse that from the half paragraph summary, Tolkien. Next time I see a movie trailer, I'll assume I know the whole plot. If you think that two species being friends is boring, you must hate almost every other science fiction/space fantasy series. So, beyond the troll child, anyone have constructive opinions besides that it isn't 10000% grimderp? Also, from a table top perspective, problem with FW as veterans, using vet rules?

Nice response to feedback. I didn't realize all you wanted was praise.

I suppose we can go into how nonsensical a time travel plot is, after all if their timeline is so good, what are they even doing here? Or we can talk aboutt completely fluff shattering Mary Sue that "Tau Astartes" are. But hey, keep throwing a tantrum instead about your fluff and throwing insults at those who don't line up to praise the idea, that'll work out.

The lore alone ruins the idea for me. It's a prime example of having your cake, and eating it too.

The Imperium is xenocidal by doctrine, like it or not. Any factions that do sympathise with the xeno are mistrusted, and will probably be hunted down by a Puritan Inquisitor or assigned to nearest bloodbath. Not to mention that a time-traveller would be unlikely to gain any traction to change the xenocidal ways of the Imperium, seeing as it would result in the HLOT giving up much of their divine authority. I cannot see them doing it, especially as the xeno represents a great scapegoat for the Imperium.
*Inquisitor Assholicus blows up Planet Expendablus III to starve Tyranids*
Concerned Sector Governor: "Who destroyed this world just in front of this hive fleet?"
Assholicus: "Erm, it was those Tau over there! Now raise me a hundred new regiments to fight them and avenge Expendablus III!"
(typical interaction with xenos threats)

Tau, despite their seeming-utopian society, is only good if they're in control.The moment you try and assert a form of dominance over the Tau, you are a threat. That's why the Greater Good works - the Tau think they are in control, but the Ethereals have them like puppets on strings. In your scenario, they have nothing to gain.

Combined with the Primarchs coming back (seriously, how do Dorn and Vulkan come back? Dorn died from a boarding action AFTER the Heresy, and Vulkan's fate is undetermined as of yet - we don't know if it's possible he can come back) and the very noblebright aspect of it, I'd have to ask: if you're changing that much of the setting, why are you invested in it?

I have no issue with ideas of "Your Dudes", but if you're changing that much of the fluff, why bother? If you're after Humans and Tau, use Gue'vesa instead with Guardsmen forming Fire Warrior squads in the Tau army instead, and fluff the Space Marines as a reluctant force of allies fighting a more dangerous threat.


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 HCMistborn wrote:
Good thing you managed to glimpse that from the half paragraph summary, Tolkien. Next time I see a movie trailer, I'll assume I know the whole plot. If you think that two species being friends is boring, you must hate almost every other science fiction/space fantasy series. So, beyond the troll child, anyone have constructive opinions besides that it isn't 10000% grimderp? Also, from a table top perspective, problem with FW as veterans, using vet rules?

Great response to criticism. You posted in the Background forum - I think it's fair to say we'll discuss the actual background. We'd be more than happy to help make it a little more plausible and fluff friendly, but as it is? No. Unless you have any other information about this universe you've created, I think our comments are valid. So, before you start mentioning about how we shouldn't judge it on what you've actually told us, perhaps tell us EVERYTHING about it instead?

Just because I like 40k as the xenocidal mess it is doesn't mean I dislike Star Wars/Star Trek and other franchises with healthy xeno/human relationships. That is their narrative, their fluff. But that is exclusive to THOSE universes. 40k is not nice and utopian. There's a reason it's known as the "grim darkness of the far future".

From a tabletop perspective, you can use cardboard cutouts to represent your models. As long as it's the right dimensions and I can identify the units, I wouldn't care. Hell, if those cutouts resembled Guardsmen, I'd be more likely to play them than your FW. But that's a rules question.

You posted in Background, and the background of your army is, forgive my bluntness, bad. We'd be happy to make it less Mary-Sue and more 40k, if you'd accept our criticism.

Yeah, see, you guys aren't actually reading what I said, and it's this obsession with grimdark. That's kind of the point of the alternate universe/time travel, is it allows for the reflection of what the prime universe's greatest fears are. A universe where Primarchs live and rule an empire allied with Xenos? Embracing cultures and ideals outside of the law of the Emperor? It's the greatest fear, the monster they run from. It's like the Terran Empire in Star Trek, only...the opposite.

 HCMistborn wrote:
Yeah, see, you guys aren't actually reading what I said, and it's this obsession with grimdark. That's kind of the point of the alternate universe/time travel, is it allows for the reflection of what the prime universe's greatest fears are. A universe where Primarchs live and rule an empire allied with Xenos? Embracing cultures and ideals outside of the law of the Emperor? It's the greatest fear, the monster they run from. It's like the Terran Empire in Star Trek, only...the opposite.

So, I ask again, why play 40k if you want to create Star Trek instead? What about 40k appeals? Because as it is, you've destroyed the 40k universe and the Imperium at it's core.

If you want Star Trek, use Tau as the main force, and have human Gue'vesa auxiliaries. That actually fits the fluff.

And, I'm sorry, you're right, I'm just in a p*ssy mood today, and took it out on you. I should've explained my idea better, and asked for further explanation as to what you thought beyond the initial statement. My bad, man, just one of those days.


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I honestly just think it would be cool on table top, to see. The idea of the very thing(beyond chaos) the imperium would hate.

 HCMistborn wrote:
Yeah, see, you guys aren't actually reading what I said, and it's this obsession with grimdark. That's kind of the point of the alternate universe/time travel, is it allows for the reflection of what the prime universe's greatest fears are. A universe where Primarchs live and rule an empire allied with Xenos? Embracing cultures and ideals outside of the law of the Emperor? It's the greatest fear, the monster they run from. It's like the Terran Empire in Star Trek, only...the opposite.

As Smudge said, you're breaking the tone of 40k here. Throw out the "grimderp" phrase as much as you want to make yourself sound clever, but you may as well be bringing in cupcake-throwing pastel bunnies as a race who use friendship as a weapon. It's not that there are no settings for it, i.e. Star Trek, but 40k has a very clear and unified tone. Why intentionally disrupt it?

I once again apologize for the snapping, my experience on the Internet has taught me to deal with potential trolls as a sharp a**hole, that was the reason for my response.

I think that disturbing the tone is a good utilization of the story telling technique. Ultimately all things are grimderp(I will use it, not cause I think I'm clever, but cause I like it, it takes the edge off it) and this, sort of pure alliance from an alternate universe where things are at least partially pastel bunnies, is going to be destroyed, and fall to the Empire or Chaos. It's the gut reaction thing, to watch what we, people of our world, see as good and wholesome, fall to the continued darkness. A momentary flash of light in the dark?


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Imagine picking up a wh40k story, and it starts out with a "Grand Council meeting of the Imperium", Rogal Dorne(who didn't die, alternate universe) and Vulkan, sitting in council with humans and xenos alike, speaking as equals about a great threat. You'd check the cover to see if you picked up the right book. So it goes on, continues showing a combined species coalition against Chaos, maybe the cause for it is something as silly as a Star Trek esque anti-chaos device. Who knows, making this up as I go, but they have to enter a wormhole or warp tear that appeared because a great enemy(Fabius Bile of this universe?) has used dark sorcery to open a portal to what they believe is the past. Go through and boy were they wrong, it's a parallel universe, the universe we know. So they sent through a battlefleet or something, and that explains the army in game. They exist on the same principle as the Tau, personal plot armor. We know they'll be wiped out. We know they'll be destroyed, but through the eyes of both sides, we see how each of them views the other as a nightmare come alive. It's essentially the opposite of what Star Trek did, they took a bubble of grimdark and put it in the Noblebright universe, I'm just talking about the opposite.

 HCMistborn wrote:
So, I have an idea for a time traveling army from one of the possible futures of the galaxy that traveled back in time to stop [insert bad guy here], where the Imperium and Tau joined forces in the face of a greater enemy, and slowly over time the cultures mixed. In this alternate universe, the xenophobia was toned down, being directed specifically at certain races, and not just non-humans. This is caused by the Empire being lead by the surviving Primarchs, Vulkan and Rogal Dorn, Dorn being toned down by the lesson learned during the heresy. This has caused a vastly different Imperium, and now the Tau serve alongside infantry, and the Mechanicum issues hybrid technologies. So, since I can't ally my tau well with Imperium forces, I was going to run Tau as Veterans alongside regular guardsmen and guard vehicles, so that they can ally with space marines, who I would paint and model to be in Tau-Astartes hybrid power armor. Obviously, in lore, pretty much everyone would hate them, but as an outside force and modeling perspective, what do you think?

1. This is your fluff. Whether others agree to it or not is immaterial. If anyone has issues hey they are just TAU mercs using veteran rules. Remember in the Real World (TM) no matter how good your fluff no one cares when it comes game time and are equally bored by good fluff or bad fluff.
2. While not background related this sounds like an interesting conversion opportunity. Just make sure their weapons are WYSIWYG, or alternatively have the arms connected via magnets such that you can swap out WYSIWYG equipment.

Go for it.

EDIT: Personally I'd the primarchs etc. and stick with the alternative universe theme of IOM (or a portion of it - you could even have the IOM having broken up which would add strength to your argument) having joined forces with Tau-as true allies aka US and UK sort of thing. It could even be in the future, a few decades down the road where, due to all the current events, the IOM has fractured somewhat, and one of those IOM fragments has allied with TAU. It would permit you to create your own DIY marine and guard units (following codex rules of course). Man I quite like the idea of that.

It seems a little complex. If you wanted to have tau and guard fighting together or a "evil" Mirror to the IoM you can just use tau as they are. You don't get to get all time travely.

Your summary nicely puts out my issue with this, and why I call it uninteresting.

There's no growth or conflict.

"But there's a big fight!" you say. That's not the same as conflict in a worthwhile writing sense. You've created more or less a perfect society, filled with cooperation and alliances and advancement, but by putting all of those things in there, and making its leaders Primarchs who are better than the originals, there's just nothing there to grab any interest. There's no internal strife or discord, which makes all of your society incredibly predictable and vanilla. In fact, the only thing that threatens them is this broad stroke of "well everyone else hates them" which is kinda true, but it is another external threat.

Every race in 40k still has its internal strife, conflicts and worries. The Tau have their seams starting to come apart with Farsight's rebellion. The Imperium has it's...well...everything. But your confederation has nothing like that. They're all friends, they have better technology (they are time traveling for goodness sake!), better alliances and so the only way to make a viable danger to them is to force them to be in another universe. Even in other settings with confederations, like Star Trek or Mass Effect, there is still a lot of problems in those alliances.

By starting at 'perfect' (or near enough) in comparison to everyone else in the setting, there's nowhere interesting for this faction to go. All it can do is go fight other people and do nothing much else.

You're right, advice on where to go? Maybe have the reason they've come back to through to this universe is because the so called bad guy was there leader? They allowed him and his cohorts to do crappy stuff in the background? Similar to supposed pheromones of the Tau? The federation had Section 31, and the first mass effect had the main villain be a distraction. Maybe have the alliance only be loosely held together, and use the actual rules from the table top? They're desperate allies, I believe, which would fit with the idea that we live and fight together against a true black crusade, or Tyranids fleet, but we don't really trust each other fully? Even after decades?


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I even like frazzleds idea, of the fragmented states from the future working together.

To be honest, it seems too fluff breaking. How hard a story it is to believe! No, really, it's like somebody clapped his hands and suddenly there we go. It would require a total rewriting that I still need to see to try hanging at this alternative fluff.

As far as the modelling project, mixing Taus into imperial forces (or the other way round) would be a blot on the landscape.

Finally, I just can't imagine how horribly strange the space marines would look...

No, to be honest, I don't like this project, and I doubt I would anyway, even if you tried to rethink the story in detail to be off to a good start... or just give it up and look at Something else.

I'm curious about the actual modelling - how would this affect the aesthetic of the models? Would this be something as simple as a few weapon swaps, possibly a Tau head on a marine body or something more elaborate. And, as a bit of a gearhead, I'm curious about vehicles - perhaps the appearance of a gravtank along the lines of the old Rogue Trader deodorant bottle appearance or some sort of mishmash of the boxy imperial vehicles melded with the sleek Tau lines into a single entity? Anything completely new?

As far as story goes, I think you would benefit from defining what event/person has neccesitated this force to travel in back in time to deal with, and even how much extensive the force is (are they "lone survivors" come back to right some wrong? An expeditionary vanguard seeking out a past pivotal event? A "destined" force sent back to be in the right place at the right time in a previous history? Is the ENTIRE force being sent back in time to make the universe a better place in the past?)

It would fit nicely. Nothing to say we can't have a list back...from the future!

Seriously, though, it would give you conversion options and open the arena to other portions of this alliance if you wanted expand your idea and other lists further.

The alternative of a human colony joining the tau empire has actually a foundation in the fluff and fits the game better then your idea.

Decades are pretty small beans in a setting of 40k's scale, where things are generally measured in centuries or millennia.

I still question a time-traveling arc because they tend to be really rough when logic is applied to them. After all, your universe is demonstrably better for those races than the current 40k universe, why do they need to go back to fix something? Plus you start falling into all kinds of weird paradoxes. Were I in your position, I would scrap the time travel and alternate universe ideas altogether. It's a big, empty galaxy to play in, and your loose confederation can find other ways to work.

For example, let's say you have an Imperium force of combined Guard and a Marine Chapter of your own creation sent to fight some Tau, as they do. They meet up on this distant world and begin to fight it out, unknowing that a Chaos force is active there as well. Spurred by the slaughter, the Chaos unleash their spell, turning the world into a Demon world, or havingit absorbed into a warp rift. The Tau and Imperium recognize their scenario and decide it is best to fight together to get out of this mess than to both die to the greater threat. This gives you a tenuous alliance, born of desperation and the scenario they are in.

I suppose it is easier to fit it inside the universe. Time travel isn't unheard of in 40k, but it always gets slippery. Maybe a plot to force the marines and tau into an alliance, a warp storm over a planet with tau and marines + guard duking it out, then a daemonic attack or series of them inside the warp storm caused them to ally, and then they're stuck inside the warp for generations? Causing them to be desperate allies for that time? They then emerge a force that's worked and fought together for hundreds of years, generations of Imperial Guard and Tau fighting and dying. Even with the mixture of cultures, they might soften up a bit? Maybe not the Astartes, but who knows, maybe the chapter was fleet based, so they were replenishing the marines with sympathizers from the IG?

This is the problem the with time travel idea.

Suppose your army plays in an alternative reality where the Tau traveled back in time and the reality shift resulted in IoM becoming slaves of the TAU. There isn't anyting wrong with this except that your opponents army isnt set in the same reality. So this battle would never happen, making the whole thing really unfluffy. Or you are forcing your opponent into your reality against their will.

Well, the question now that rises is with the Astartes, after all, if they are isolated in a Warp Storm and fighting, they have no way of replenishing their numbers. Making a Marine is a huge investment in resources, and not something done in the field. Now that isn't to say that all the Marines will be gone in such a time, but they should be the rarest of your units. Like a Chapter Master and his Honor Guard and a couple of officers, maybe a couple of tanks.

You might want to check out this.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Gue'vesa

I was going to change the newer Stealthsuits into Space Marines at one point as converts to the Tau Cause.

i see converts being an interesting choice. Imperial Training and unit cohesion cause them to wish to keep some of their identtiy, but having seen the corruption of the Imperium, now fight for the inevitable freedom of their fellow Chapters.

In that one i was using a Broadside as Lysander, Stealthsuits as Space Marines and i was considering a conversion of Broadsides for the Terminators also. This was in 6th whgen they magically became battle buddies (gimme a break).

I dont know that Tau would ever want to join the Imperium though. No one of sound mind not brought up in that would want to just right in probably? they are so Zenophobic that it would just be a matter of time. The Tau Empire on the other hand is very NOT Xenophobic.

Someone told me about your army, Jancoran, it's partially what inspired the desire to do this.


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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/659239.page

ah, gotcha

Obviously my idea was much different. I've decided to explore other possibilities.

The issue here seems to be less "Would this work counts-as" (in which case the answer is yes), and more how defensive, and tethered, you are when it comes to your idea.

Blandness, unequivocally better, utterly against the tone of the setting, I don't really need to dig into the problems with it from a fluff / writing perspective because that's already being done.

For the reasons already stated you're much better off going with Imperium outcasts / rebels shacking up with the Tau and being subsumed.

In that case you could make the army work. Some kitbashes, plasticard, and well-placed hobby-knife cuts later and you'll have a functional counts-as force without any real issues.

 morganfreeman wrote:
The issue here seems to be less "Would this work counts-as" (in which case the answer is yes), and more how defensive, and tethered, you are when it comes to your idea.

Blandness, unequivocally better, utterly against the tone of the setting, I don't really need to dig into the problems with it from a fluff / writing perspective because that's already being done.

For the reasons already stated you're much better off going with Imperium outcasts / rebels shacking up with the Tau and being subsumed.

In that case you could make the army work. Some kitbashes, plasticard, and well-placed hobby-knife cuts later and you'll have a functional counts-as force without any real issues.

Basically this.

Not the way I'd do a Tau/Imperial Hybrid. I'd keep with the current timeline and current theme.

An Inquisitor has authorised the use of Captured Tau from the Damocles Crusade as penal troopers. Given a Lasgun and an explosive collar, even xeno scum such as the Tau can die for the Emperor.

On the tabletop, I'd just use them as conscripts (miss the Penal Legion from 6th :/)