Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The campaign was good and I know that in my store it was level for all teams and had a destruction win (Beastclaw and Spiders ). But its pretty clear that they possess a huge advantage purely due to the number of armies. Unless Chaos, Destruction and Death become one faction in terms of determining victory and I don't see that happening; its the only way. I mean what happens when we get Steamhead Dwarves, the Light Elves and the Dark Elves. Orders going to get a lot of new releases and don't see how they can make enough Undead and Orc subfactions to compensate.

I will add as a caveat that, lorewise, Chaos still reigns supreme and controls most of the realms. My suspicion is that all Order, Death and Destruction wins will probably count against Chaos because they are the ones who are losing ground. Nobody else has any ground left to lose. Reading the Sylvaneth book you really get the sense that they've got nothing left at this point. But if GW wants to go more in the Horde vs Alliance thing with Order/Destruction/Death then they do need to have Chaos reduced in power. Reading the books it feels like Chaos is everywhere but each faction is struggling in its own realm.

But I don't see how they could do it. You can't neatly divide them without breaking it up too much.

The only division I can think of is to split the elves off into their own thing. But even then its hard to come up with a lore justification beyond Order Civil War.

Throw all the Aelfs into one area - including the woodland creatures and that would take almost half of Order.

Daemons vs. Mortals would be an even split for Chaos as well.

I thought they would break down the alliances one more time into 8 so they could correspond to the winds of magic better.

There has to be many "other planes" people can exist on and still be able to fit the story lines.

I think the best way to handle future campaigns is not to worry about breaking up the factions but to allow players to dedicate their wins to whatever the various campaign objectives are. So in this campaign if players were allowed to dedicate wins then chaos, death, and destruction could have made a concentrated push for a city rather than forced to be broken up where order will naturally have the advantage.

 buddha wrote:
I think the best way to handle future campaigns is not to worry about breaking up the factions but to allow players to dedicate their wins to whatever the various campaign objectives are. So in this campaign if players were allowed to dedicate wins then chaos, death, and destruction could have made a concentrated push for a city rather than forced to be broken up where order will naturally have the advantage.

Actually that's a point. Does the campaign use a "first past the post system"? Are they just counting how many stores are controlled by each faction (As little as 26% could do it) or the total number of votes? That could have a huge difference.

The problem is that this essentially amalgamates Chaos, Death and Destruction. TBH I never really got the sudden shift in the focus of the campaign to making Order have a set back with every faction ganging up on these three cities. Every realm is supposed to be still on the cusp of being over ran by Chaos. Really I feel it should have focused on a final push to drive them out of the mortal realms, with the defeat of Chaos the main goal.

I'm not even sure why Nagash was In this one, other than flying into the realm of life to throw a pair of boney middle fingers at Sigmar and Alarielle. itll be interesting to see how this effects the new books, and if this is the turning point moment that sees Chaos start to be driven back.

It would not really matter sigmarines like spacemarines always win.

It is best to leave the pretend what you do matters in the game thing to your local area only.

GW did a wolrd event before aswell..... Space marine got a 9000 point bonus because they coolestest models ever.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I'm not even sure why Nagash was In this one, other than flying into the realm of life to throw a pair of boney middle fingers at Sigmar and Alarielle. itll be interesting to see how this effects the new books, and if this is the turning point moment that sees Chaos start to be driven back.

I know that in the most recent book they have closed the realm gates for life, fire and beasts. But Chaos defeated them at the realm of metal because Archaon trump card.

But I never felt like Order had become ascendant and even in that book Nagash betraying Sigmar a second time for no reason seemed very petty and needless. Its hard to take the Destruction and Death going against Order as anything other than helping Chaos win.

Presumably the Realmgate wars will conclude with Chaos being driven back and then a greater focus on the inter pantheon rivalry GW is trying to aim for but can't really do whilst Chaos is in everyones front garden.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I'm not even sure why Nagash was In this one, other than flying into the realm of life to throw a pair of boney middle fingers at Sigmar and Alarielle. itll be interesting to see how this effects the new books, and if this is the turning point moment that sees Chaos start to be driven back.

But I never felt like Order had become ascendant and even in that book Nagash betraying Sigmar a second time for no reason seemed very petty and needless.

So.. Nagash is still being Nagash then, glad they didn't change his character too much.

But Nagash's plan during the entire thing was

Orders going to get a lot of new releases and don't see how they can make enough Undead and Orc subfactions to compensate.

Orc will be doing better as it has more subfactions thanks to splitting up the various orc/ogre/goblin factions, they'll be getting Fimir from FW soon as well.

Undead have the worst of it though, but we may see more subfactions given to them like Flesh Eater Courts were, they can freely add more subfactions with the way they've done out the books.

OgreChubbs wrote:
It would not really matter sigmarines like spacemarines always win.

It is best to leave the pretend what you do matters in the game thing to your local area only.

GW did a wolrd event before aswell..... Space marine got a 9000 point bonus because they coolestest models ever.

Hmm... following along some of your other posts - why do you play these games?

At least add to the conversation instead of bashing it the entire time.

The problem is that Orc, Ogre and Undead subfactions are just that; sub factions. Whilst its possible that powerful books and releases might encourage people to buy them, its pretty likely that you're just going to have the same number of people playing Orcs. That's just one big faction split up. Whereas even if we get Sylvaneth, that's just a continuation of Wood Elves and we're still going to get a lot of Dark Elf players buying Shadow faction. So theres still a lot more main factions in the Order alliance.

 buddha wrote:
I think the best way to handle future campaigns is not to worry about breaking up the factions but to allow players to dedicate their wins to whatever the various campaign objectives are. So in this campaign if players were allowed to dedicate wins then chaos, death, and destruction could have made a concentrated push for a city rather than forced to be broken up where order will naturally have the advantage.

That's actually how my local GW explained the system was supposed to work to the AoS players for this campaign. We had Stormcast reporting for Death and Destruction, Orruks for Order, and a few other weird outliers like that--but mostly people just went to whatever their army was under.

In terms of the game order dominates but in the fluff each faction represented on the tabletop are very very small compared to chaos numbers. Death and destruction are 2 additional factions.......they are not the focus of this game. The story no and forever will be order vs chaos.

So for things like this campaign we will always see order out perform everyone but its one of those things that really isn't going to change much.

I was thinking for the next campaign, they should have 6 regions - each one having a matchup of one Alliance against another. So any time you play Chaos vs Order, you put it in Zone A where they're fighting, but if you play Chaos vs Destruction, those results go into Zone C where those factions are quarreling. And then for painting you could choose which zone to apply it to.

That way, there really shouldn't be a faction that feels useless - if Order is winning hugely, Chaos can still take zones away from Destruction or Death, and vice versa.

I think things would have been much less favorable to Order if the Sylvaneth release hadn't existed, or been so awesome.

I agree. The Sylv release did wonders but the army is awesome too.

Given that there has been little to no movement with the aelf armies, I foresee them splitting off soon enough, at the very least, Dark Aelves. Another possibly is High Aelves become corrupted through their dealings with the captured Slaanesh and become legit forces of chaos.

No just need to make it so you don't count games where order played against order.

A fun split could be the nature vs technology aspects of Order. The fluff around Greywater Fastness already stated the Sylvaneth weren't happy with the colossal floating factory the Ironweld built, polluting the landscape around. They even came to blows over it.

How did the campaign end? Well they built some sort of super weapon and nuked the landscape for leagues to come. Probably not a victory to the eyes of the Sylvaneth and moreso it could be considered an act of aggression.

That would certainly contribute to some inner-Order strife happening.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
It would not really matter sigmarines like spacemarines always win.

It is best to leave the pretend what you do matters in the game thing to your local area only.

GW did a wolrd event before aswell..... Space marine got a 9000 point bonus because they coolestest models ever.

Hmm... following along some of your other posts - why do you play these games?

At least add to the conversation instead of bashing it the entire time.

I do not hate it tho I actually really loved whfb, very good well thought out lore and a real threat to life.

Also AoS I love iron jawz like ALOT.

But I tend to almost bait myself into hate, I try reading the books and it reads like a space marine novel ( gordak) born from mork and gorks rage lost to john sigmarine because they are poster boys.

So I am going to try and take a dear friends advise, I am going to avoid all lore because it is trash and all topics that upset me like GW letting people think anyone can win other then a space marine or sigmarine what ever.

So expect alot more postive posts from me and alot less posts in general.

To be fairly honest they've mentioned that Order, despite it's name isn't full cohesive group.

You've got the Fyreslayers, Ur-gold junkies who will accept agreements with anyone willing to pay, though they consider honor important, enough Ur-gold is quite willing to sway some.

Sylvaneth: Does not give three damns about most of order, just cares about nature and the forests and life. Along with opposing Nurgle and Skaven the most as those two tend to be the worst for life.

Shadow Aelfs: We have no clue of their motivations or plots yet.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
To be fairly honest they've mentioned that Order, despite it's name isn't full cohesive group.

You've got the Fyreslayers, Ur-gold junkies who will accept agreements with anyone willing to pay, though they consider honor important, enough Ur-gold is quite willing to sway some.

Sylvaneth: Does not give three damns about most of order, just cares about nature and the forests and life. Along with opposing Nurgle and Skaven the most as those two tend to be the worst for life.

Shadow Aelfs: We have no clue of their motivations or plots yet.

Which is why I've always felt they needed a couple of more Grand Alliances. We already have Order vs Chaos, so why not go with Creation (various duardin factions, maybe old-school Empire) vs Destruction, and Life (Sylvaneth, Wood Aelves) vs Death? That breaks up Order a little by removing those factions that don't necessarily fit the mold of Order anyway.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
It would not really matter sigmarines like spacemarines always win.

It is best to leave the pretend what you do matters in the game thing to your local area only.

GW did a wolrd event before aswell..... Space marine got a 9000 point bonus because they coolestest models ever.

Hmm... following along some of your other posts - why do you play these games?

At least add to the conversation instead of bashing it the entire time.

I do not hate it tho I actually really loved whfb, very good well thought out lore and a real threat to life.

Also AoS I love iron jawz like ALOT.

But I tend to almost bait myself into hate, I try reading the books and it reads like a space marine novel ( gordak) born from mork and gorks rage lost to john sigmarine because they are poster boys.

So I am going to try and take a dear friends advise, I am going to avoid all lore because it is trash and all topics that upset me like GW letting people think anyone can win other then a space marine or sigmarine what ever.

So expect alot more postive posts from me and alot less posts in general.

Gordrakk didn't lose to the Sigmarines, in fact the reason Zephacles came up with the whole duel idea was because he knew the Stormcast wouldn't win. Further, Zephacles was losing the duel until it got cut short.

I think with these campaigns people always have to except that some factions are just more popular than others and then more likely to do well! The idea of a balanced campaign doesn't come into the GW mindset (for better or worse) because they're just looking to sell models. This campaign was amazing for AoS in my store, chaos won FYI. Some armies are also just going to be better than others, the fact that painting warscrolls give victory points too also pushes the campaign in favour of more aesthetically pleasing ranges like Sylvaneth.

I can't wait for the next campaign they do in AoS or 40k, I might even play Order this time around to be on the winning side overall

 SonOfSigvald wrote:
No just need to make it so you don't count games where order played against order.

I thought that's how it was done? For example I counted my battles against the local Stormcast player as if I was a destruction army.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 SonOfSigvald wrote:
No just need to make it so you don't count games where order played against order.

I thought that's how it was done? For example I counted my battles against the local Stormcast player as if I was a destruction army.

That's certainly how we managed it. My Stormcast were corrupted by Chaos for about 3 weeks.

The issue wasn't so much about Order having more armies as it was Order receiving a major release (Sylvaneth) at the beginning of the campaign. The campaign featured hobby points, meaning a faction received points for models being purchased and painted, not just for winning battles (and Order v. Order fights didn't count as faction wins in most stores). This meant that Order jumped out to a huge lead at the beginning and received painting points throughout. Destruction actually saw a big surge with the Beastclaw release, but it was just a reboxing, and it occurred late in the campaign, so the impact wasn't as big, but Destruction definitely gained a benefit late in the event.

They had bonesplitters in the campaign as well so had two books to help them. It makes it unsurprising that death was likely the smallest as the starter sets had order and chaos and destruction had two tomes come out in the campaign whilst death had whatever it already had going into it.

 n0t_u wrote:
They had bonesplitters in the campaign as well so had two books to help them. It makes it unsurprising that death was likely the smallest as the starter sets had order and chaos and destruction had two tomes come out in the campaign whilst death had whatever it already had going into it.

I knew I had forgotten a release, but again, Bonesplitters were a reboxing, and while a lot of Orruk players appreciate it, the models didn't exactly set the hobby world on fire (but they still gave a small boost to Destruction the week they came out). The hobby aspect seemed to have a bigger impact than anyone anticipated.

And I definitely agree that any way you look at it, Death got the short end of the stick. From my understanding, they are set for a couple more releases in Q4 (something for Silver Tower at the very least), so hopefully that'll help them in the next campaign. I hope so anyway. I'm wanting to make my next AoS force a Death army after I work on Chaos for a bit.

For our local events I volunteer my Fyreslayers to be like Alpha Legion in Heresy events, if it's uneven just send us to another side and it works for fluff