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It seems objectively, one of the biggest imbalances this game suffers from are destroyer weapons. It really limits their design space when such a game breaking weapon exists. For instance how do you correctly cost a land raider. Its so cheap that codexes without access to D can't handle it. Or its prohibitively expansive and gets wrecked in a turn by a fraction of the points in eldar shooting.

I propose that all D weapons profiles are replaced in the following way.

All full strength D (wraith cannons, destroyer missiles ect) become
S10, AP2, ignores saving throws of any kind, may re roll to pen against vehicles.

All D-1 (D-scythes, D-flails, ect)
become S1, AP2, poison 3+, wonds GMC's on a 4+, Vehicles suffer a pen on a 4+.

Against vehicles a destroyer weapon now inflicts an average of .75 HP down from 3 (1.66 if you ignore the '6' effect). Against AV14 it goes from a 5/6 chance to inflict a pen to 5/9.
It does become slightly better against single wound models with a 3++ while letting it stay a potent threat against MC's with high invuln saves like the riptide.

I think if you want to address D in general, you make a change to the table. Make a "6" result only do D3+2 wounds or HPs with no saves. That will mean that on a 6, most vehicles are dead, but vehicles with 4+ HPs have a chance to live. Anything with 6+ wounds or HPs cannot be outright killed by a '6'

If you want to fix Eldar's D (which is the only codex with "easy access" to D-spam) than have ALL distort weapons do this:
Distort: A weapon with this rule is a Destroyer weapon, however all rolls are -1 to the D table. Distort "Scythes" are -2 to the table instead.

This will make the Scythes feel more like they did in 6th ed by only ever wounding on 4+, and makes Wraithcannons feel more like 5th ed where 3+ caused a Glance and 5+ was a Pen.

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If you use that ruling then D-missiles need to be D-1 too. My feeling is that there shouldn't be a ranged weapon in the game that can slag a land raider in one shot.
Edit: outside of titans of course.

Ignoring AV should still be hella expensive.

Martel732 wrote:
Ignoring AV should still be hella expensive.

Just out of curiosity, do you have the same problem with haywire. I think its made up for by the fact that it does nothing against non-vehicles and most of the time the tank can still fire back. For instance a unit of scourges only kills a land raider in one turn 9.5% of the time.

I assume the "no saves of any kind allowed" bit is there to retain the deathstar-busting powers of D?

I'll point out that it does reduce the utility of single D shots against very durable units (Riptide, Wraithknight, Chapter Master on a bike, etc), while greatly increasing the utility of D against deathstars (where whacking a weak model with insane saves is more important).

Also: against Ghostkeels and Nurgle Daemon Princes (or other T5, multi-wound, cover-reliant things), full-power D is now "hit, don't roll a 1, auto-die", whereas currently it's only auto-death on a 6 or a failed cover save.

Another wrinkle: Feel No Pain. It's not a save, so "no saves of any kind allowed" doesn't actually prevent FNP from being used. Normally the FNP description says you can't use it against D weapons, you'd want to preserve that here.

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Ignoring AV should still be hella expensive.

Just out of curiosity, do you have the same problem with haywire. I think its made up for by the fact that it does nothing against non-vehicles and most of the time the tank can still fire back. For instance a unit of scourges only kills a land raider in one turn 9.5% of the time.

Not as much. Although I think that ranged haywire is a tad undercosted. D is one-stop shopping.


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lusciifi wrote:
If you use that ruling then D-missiles need to be D-1 too. My feeling is that there shouldn't be a ranged weapon in the game that can slag a land raider in one shot.
Edit: outside of titans of course.

Don't worry, that shrub can slag it with one hit!

Its probably alright if T6+ models are allowed their FNP. i don't think this would make it under powered.

As for ghostkeels, they can still make you snap fire for a turn and to be honest a 300 point model should probably delete a 120 point model without much of a issue. You can also still place your drones in front to take the hits for you.

Demon princes without formations are too weak as is right now anyways but that's a different thread.

lusciifi wrote:
Its probably alright if T6+ models are allowed their FNP. i don't think this would make it under powered.

As for ghostkeels, they can still make you snap fire for a turn and to be honest a 300 point model should probably delete a 120 point model without much of a issue. You can also still place your drones in front to take the hits for you.

No. There needs to be a way to take away FNP from T 6+ models. Nothing should be getting FNP vs D weapons, imo.

I'm not sure I follow, how is ignoring a core rule like FNP any different then ignoring AV.

Because MCs and GMCs are already too durable. A riptide should not be able to tarpit an IK in melee. They already kinda can with the 3++ nova shield.

Leave D as it is, but make ranged D much more expensive. And template D.

Martel732 wrote:
Because MCs and GMCs are already too durable. A riptide should not be able to tarpit an IK in melee. They already kinda can with the 3++ nova shield.

Leave D as it is, but make ranged D much more expensive. And template D.

Or, we could remove it from games below 2k points.

Only if we can remove Riptide as well. D weapons are one of the few things that can make a dent in them.

There's too much of a swing with D as it stands. Either you roll a 6 on your attacks (or stomps for that matter) or the riptide with the 3++ just laughs at you. If you really think that the modified D rules would be too weak then just add a few base attacks to the IK.

lusciifi wrote:
Its probably alright if T6+ models are allowed their FNP. i don't think this would make it under powered.

As for ghostkeels, they can still make you snap fire for a turn and to be honest a 300 point model should probably delete a 120 point model without much of a issue. You can also still place your drones in front to take the hits for you.

Demon princes without formations are too weak as is right now anyways but that's a different thread.

A 300 point model, or a 10 point Inquisition psyker who got lucky on Sanctic Daemonology, to be completely fair. Also, the difference is in going from "roll on the D chart. On a 6, die. On a 2-5, make a cover save or die" to "on a 2-6, die, period." Also, since this is a normal to-wound roll (rather than a D-chart roll), Preferred Enemy and Shred apply, and there are ways to get those. It's an edge case, but one to consider.

Slight beside-the-point correction on the Ghostkeel: the countermeasures can only be used in response to being targeted, so it can't force you to snapshoot unless you shoot at it. In most games I find they get assaulted instead (and due to their short range - 24" at max - they're usually operating in assault range.


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Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
Its probably alright if T6+ models are allowed their FNP. i don't think this would make it under powered.

As for ghostkeels, they can still make you snap fire for a turn and to be honest a 300 point model should probably delete a 120 point model without much of a issue. You can also still place your drones in front to take the hits for you.

No. There needs to be a way to take away FNP from T 6+ models. Nothing should be getting FNP vs D weapons, imo.

In fact, this would be automatically covered if "new D" still gets the Destroyer special rule, because it's the description for FNP itself that says you can't use it against D, not in the description of D weapons. This is also true for Necron Reanimation Protocols.

Also, in the specific case of the Riptide, the "new D" would inflict an entirely unsaveable wound on a Riptide on a 2+ to wound. That's not "one hit, you die", but it'll also never survive more than five successful to-wound rolls.

Okay. That's probably fine then. I thought destroyer special rule was out. If you are just monkeying the table, fine.

@ OP If that is how you feel, you can just ask your opponent to please not use D weapons. Personally STR D should be moved back to Apoc only.

I feel like you might be going after the symptoms instead of the disease, OP. As people have pointed out, your nerfs to D have a few odd mechanicle wrinkles and kind of just make people want to not take D on most platforms. It sounds like you're mostly concerned a bout eldar D weapons. So a few thoughts on the matter:

* Simply not playing with superheavies/gargantuans (which cause lots of odd balance problems) outside of 2k+ games gets rid of almost all the D in the game outside of eldar and certain psychic powers.

* Land raiders have lots of problems, and D is only one of them. Land raiders are simply too expensive for what they bring to the table. They would be too expensive even if D weapons didn't exist in the first place. Their points cost simply doesn't reflect what they bring to the table these days.

* Land raiders are an ideal target for D weapons because they're expensive and not all that hard to kill. Similarly, they're ideal targets for haywire weapons. While I see where you're coming from, using a land raider as an example of why D weapons are a problem is kind of like using gretchin to argue that soul fright weapons are a problem. A d-weapon used against a rhino, for instance, is kind of a waste. Whether or not the presence of D affecting list building is a problem is more a matter of the current meta.

* D weapons that roll "average" don't actually have the massive edge that people seem to think they do. Rolling a 6 on the D-table can be problematic because that "critical hit" can bypass all sorts of expensive defenses that would normally mitigate a weapon's effectiveness. Against a rhino, the average result is that the rhino loses two hull points instead of one. That's not terribly intimidating considering that most D-platforms are fairly expensive. What I'm getting at here is that I feel the 6 result being "swingy" is the probably the real problem rather than the "d3 hull points" thing.

* While I'm not married to eldar having lots of D-weapons, they certainly aren't without their drawbacks. A D-cannon artillery piece is a cheap way to get D. It's also unable to shoot in the turn it moves and has limited range and squishy crew. Wraithguard are expensive and slow. You can take them in a wave serpent, but then you almost double the unit's cost. D-scythes are mostly mean because they make assaults harder, but overwatch eaters clear the path to them easily enough. Or you can just shoot them to death and make your opponent bleed 50(?) points per body. I frequently run a 5-man d-scythe squad with a webway portal archon. They hit very hard, but they also rarely survive past the turn they arrive. If my opponent is running MSU, there's a good chance I've failed to make my points back on that unit.


I guess what I'm getting at is that I feel your proposed nerfs to D are a bit too broad and general and don't really target the key problems I get the impression that you want to address. How would you feel if the 6 result on the D table simply did an automatic 3 wounds/hull points rather than auto-removing the target? And would you really be fielding a land raider if there were no D around considering melta and haywire would still exist?

Even better, make 'D' an instant kill to all non SH/GMC type units and make it extremely lethal to them, as it is in the fluff, BUUUUUTTTTT remove it from most of the units in the game. Only the Shadowsword, and other Titan's or Titan killers should have any access to D-weapons.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I feel like you might be going after the symptoms instead of the disease, OP. As people have pointed out, your nerfs to D have a few odd mechanicle wrinkles and kind of just make people want to not take D on most platforms. It sounds like you're mostly concerned a bout eldar D weapons. So a few thoughts on the matter:

* Simply not playing with superheavies/gargantuans (which cause lots of odd balance problems) outside of 2k+ games gets rid of almost all the D in the game outside of eldar and certain psychic powers.

* Land raiders have lots of problems, and D is only one of them. Land raiders are simply too expensive for what they bring to the table. They would be too expensive even if D weapons didn't exist in the first place. Their points cost simply doesn't reflect what they bring to the table these days.

* Land raiders are an ideal target for D weapons because they're expensive and not all that hard to kill. Similarly, they're ideal targets for haywire weapons. While I see where you're coming from, using a land raider as an example of why D weapons are a problem is kind of like using gretchin to argue that soul fright weapons are a problem. A d-weapon used against a rhino, for instance, is kind of a waste. Whether or not the presence of D affecting list building is a problem is more a matter of the current meta.

* D weapons that roll "average" don't actually have the massive edge that people seem to think they do. Rolling a 6 on the D-table can be problematic because that "critical hit" can bypass all sorts of expensive defenses that would normally mitigate a weapon's effectiveness. Against a rhino, the average result is that the rhino loses two hull points instead of one. That's not terribly intimidating considering that most D-platforms are fairly expensive. What I'm getting at here is that I feel the 6 result being "swingy" is the probably the real problem rather than the "d3 hull points" thing.

* While I'm not married to eldar having lots of D-weapons, they certainly aren't without their drawbacks. A D-cannon artillery piece is a cheap way to get D. It's also unable to shoot in the turn it moves and has limited range and squishy crew. Wraithguard are expensive and slow. You can take them in a wave serpent, but then you almost double the unit's cost. D-scythes are mostly mean because they make assaults harder, but overwatch eaters clear the path to them easily enough. Or you can just shoot them to death and make your opponent bleed 50(?) points per body. I frequently run a 5-man d-scythe squad with a webway portal archon. They hit very hard, but they also rarely survive past the turn they arrive. If my opponent is running MSU, there's a good chance I've failed to make my points back on that unit.


I guess what I'm getting at is that I feel your proposed nerfs to D are a bit too broad and general and don't really target the key problems I get the impression that you want to address. How would you feel if the 6 result on the D table simply did an automatic 3 wounds/hull points rather than auto-removing the target? And would you really be fielding a land raider if there were no D around considering melta and haywire would still exist?

LR sucks without D, I agree. The game moves too fast and models are scooped up too quickly for the LR to be relevant. The split mission of transport and shooting really kills it. The crusader was viable back in the day with defensive weapons, but the godhammer pattern has always been terrible.


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 master of ordinance wrote:
Even better, make 'D' an instant kill to all non SH/GMC type units and make it extremely lethal to them, as it is in the fluff, BUUUUUTTTTT remove it from most of the units in the game. Only the Shadowsword, and other Titan's or Titan killers should have any access to D-weapons.

Eldar have them in the corner store in the fluff. Forget fluff for game balancing.

If I'm honest I like a lot of the units that provide D. I like to bring wraith-guard but I don't want to feel like an ass for doing so.

Toning down the 6 would be one way to solve the problem. I think either keeping the d3 wounds for 2-6 and letting opponents get invlun saves or letting it be 1 wound with no saves is the about the same net result against most things.


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Regardless of the fix I don't believe that the 6 on the stomp table or the 6 on the d table should exist going foreword if we want a balanced 40k.

lusciifi wrote:
If I'm honest I like a lot of the units that provide D. I like to bring wraith-guard but I don't want to feel like an ass for doing so.

Toning down the 6 would be one way to solve the problem. I think either keeping the d3 wounds for 2-6 and letting opponents get invlun saves or letting it be 1 wound with no saves is the about the same net result against most things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regardless of the fix I don't believe that the 6 on the stomp table or the 6 on the d table should exist going foreword if we want a balanced 40k.

I'll tell ya, the simplest fix for Eldar is to make all Distort weapons D -1, with Scythes being D -2. That would mean no "6" result for anything, wraithcannons & D-cannons fail 33% of the rolls to cause damage, and D-scythes only wound/pen 50% of what they hit.

But outside of the Eldar codex, there isn't a need to tone down D, since no other army can spam it reliably. Maybe reduce the amount of damage a "6" result can do so that some units have a chance to survive it (see my aforementioned D3+2)
D in small amount is good for the game as it discourages Death Stars and MCs

-

That's fine, and while we're at it, we need to gut invis and superfriends, too.

Im going to try your fix this weekend and see how it goes. Simple fixes I suppose are usually better when it comes to house rules.


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Martel732 wrote:
That's fine, and while we're at it, we need to gut invis and superfriends, too.

Hard cap of 2 IC's in a unit.

Invis now WC3 and makes the unit targeting fire at BS1 not snapfiring.

I'm with those that think the only problem with D is the 6 result, I run Wraithguard fairly regualrly and they rarely earn their points back regardless of running Wraithcannons or D-Scythes.

I think the Deathblow should be D3 wounds/hull points with no saves of any kind allowed.

 Imateria wrote:
I'm with those that think the only problem with D is the 6 result, I run Wraithguard fairly regualrly and they rarely earn their points back regardless of running Wraithcannons or D-Scythes.

I think the Deathblow should be D3 wounds/hull points with no saves of any kind allowed.

Agreed. Let the "6" result ignore saves to reflect it blasting through an ion shield or whatever, but don't let it auto-delete a unit by getting lucky. Seems reasonable to me.

Roll it back to 4e Destroyer. Auto-wounds, auto-penetrates. That's it. No tables, no fancy special rules.

Roll distortion weapons back to S10/AP2, definitely, though I'm on the fence about whether that's enough for the d-scythes and the Hemlock.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Even better, make 'D' an instant kill to all non SH/GMC type units and make it extremely lethal to them, as it is in the fluff, BUUUUUTTTTT remove it from most of the units in the game. Only the Shadowsword, and other Titan's or Titan killers should have any access to D-weapons.

This. D-weapons are supposed to represent things like titan weapons or the main gun on a titan-killer superheavy tank. No "normal" unit should have a D-weapon, period. But the few units that do should absolutely annihilate anything they hit. If a Shadowsword targets your Land Raider your Land Raider is dead. No "normal" scale armor is going to protect you from a massive laser designed to cut a titan in half with a single shot.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Roll it back to 4e Destroyer. Auto-wounds, auto-penetrates. That's it. No tables, no fancy special rules.

Roll distortion weapons back to S10/AP2, definitely, though I'm on the fence about whether that's enough for the d-scythes and the Hemlock.

I'd be fine with this. Wraithcannons were fine in the 6th edition book. Making d-scythes work the way they did in 6th edition would also be fine. Hemlocks were less good with those rules, but they still had a role when doing Ld shenanigans.

One thing about the auto-wound/auto-pens thing, I like the simplicity, but it's also a little lackluster in some cases. To compare, the hammerhead's railgun is strength 10 ap 1, so it almost always pens when it hits (as long as you aren't shooting at a knight or land raider), but it's not considered a great choice because taking a single hull point off of something isn't great. Some superheavies pay a lot of points for their D weapons, and reducing those guns to only dealing a single wound wouldn't be great. What if D-weapons did an auto-pen/auto-wound and also added +3 to the vehicle damage chart regardless of AP? And maybe have it inflict two wounds for every unsaved one so that it has increased affect against MCs?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Roll distortion weapons back to S10/AP2, definitely, though I'm on the fence about whether that's enough for the d-scythes and the Hemlock.

As I say everytime - Make Eldar D like it was in 6th.