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How would the "Best to worst" Codex list look like, if each codex had their top three OP units banned? For example, Tau would have Riptides, stormsurges, and Hammerheads banned, and SM would lose terminators, the good imperial knight build, and (IDK) librarians. This would put the Tau at a severe disadvantage, dropping their codex down to the bottom of the "list", but the SM would probably stay top tier, or just below.

Thoughts?

Edit:
Many have inquired about my choices for my example, as for Tau, no, they did not touch me in the naughty place, that was the terminators' job. I know jack about anything non-Eldar, so I just used my experiences from games.

FYI, Hammerheads are not even an OP unit, let alone one of the top 3. Same with terminators

Sorry, I was just trying to set up an example. I know squat about anything not Eldar, which is one of the reasons I'm asking. Seems to me Tau would be hit the hardest, but I'm still pretty new at this.

 CynosureEldar wrote:
Sorry, I was just trying to set up an example. I know squat about anything not Eldar, which is one of the reasons I'm asking. Seems to me Tau would be hit the hardest, but I'm still pretty new at this.

You need to stick around for a few years and a few editions before becoming bitter and cynical enough to start a thread like this.

But since we are here. What would you remove from the Eldar and where do you see them in the pecking order?

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 CynosureEldar wrote:
Sorry, I was just trying to set up an example. I know squat about anything not Eldar, which is one of the reasons I'm asking. Seems to me Tau would be hit the hardest, but I'm still pretty new at this.

You need to stick around for a few years and a few editions before becoming bitter and cynical enough to start a thread like this.

But since we are here. What would you remove from the Eldar and where do you see them in the pecking order?

3 spots, 4 units: wraithknights, scatterbikes, farseers, warp spiders. Take your pick what stays.
Whatever happens I think they would still be quite powerful, there are a lot of decent units that dont get used just because there are more powerful ones.

Asan aside, picking three unpickable units from your opponents codex (with prior agreement of course) could be an interesting way to try and balance a game.
Although I wonder what my Chaos marines would lose.

This is basically what will happen to every type of codex.
The well rounded OP codexes will still be the best (see Eldar)
The "spam this unit" codexes would fall down to mid or bottom tier depending on how reliant they are on certain units (Space Wolves become mid tier, Tyranids go to the dumpster).
The bottom tier codexes become even worse because the few units that where decent aren't usable so they are using the gak that is just bad.
The middle of the road with just meh units continues to be middle of the road and meh but can't rely on their slightly better units.
Armies with very limited unit options become entirely unplayable as most of their codex is banned and thus they are stuck running things like Grey Knight Dreadnoughts or Purgation Squads *shudder*

In total game balance is probably worse and a lot of armies are not even usable. Eldar would probably be #1 by an even larger margin.

 Gamgee wrote:
What do my eyes see? Another topic whining about the Tau? Did a Riptide touch you in a bad place? Let me get the primarch doll and you can show the courtroom exactly where it touched you.

Maybe you should get your eyes checked if that's what you're seeing.

Its almost like this thread is about listing off the top 3 units in each codex and discussing how it would change the general power levels.

In other words, pump the brakes there big shoots. No need to activate your nova reactor for full defensive mode yet.

To be on topic, Guard would ban Wyverns, Veterans and...Vendettas? Can't think of a good third one. It would really bring the codex down by a lot, seeing as vets are generally a superior troop option outside of using allies to make some kind of super blob. Wyverns are the best artillery in the vanilla codex, leaving Guard players to rely on Bassies and Manticores for any sort of long range firepower, especially horde clearing.

Oh boy.. CSM would be devastated by this.. Probably be banned- sorcerers, Heldrakes, and either Daemon Princes or cultists. While DP's are obviously more powerful than cultists, removing cultists would force people to play CSM in a CSM army... That would seriously diminish what little usefulness they have.

"Sad Ork Player" Lets be real here for a minute. The Tau codex is not the source for our sadness. Sure Tau are the paper to our rock and I think most Ork players understand that just like it is that way for the Dark Eldar. The sadness is that we go to bash scissors and we find out that our rock isn't actually a rock but a piece of petrified droppings. It all falls apart in our hands and we are left with the distinct smell of gak.

But to play along, the Orks would lose Tankbustas, Meganobz, and Warbikes..... So we have almost no answers to vehicles and our only durable units are gone so its Nob Biker spam and watch as your insanely overpriced 2 wound bikes get torn to bits by ignore cover shooting..... or melee. Maybe we can double Orkcurion to do that MSU Deffkopta spam list. Extreme MSU and pray for turn 5 to be the last turn.

Hmmm...for vanilla SM codex...

Librarians
Centurion Devestators
Drop Pods.

Watch the power level drop considerably. They would still have a few decent options but the OP army builds would be greatly reduced.

 Vankraken wrote:
"Sad Ork Player" Lets be real here for a minute. The Tau codex is not the source for our sadness. Sure Tau are the paper to our rock and I think most Ork players understand that just like it is that way for the Dark Eldar. The sadness is that we go to bash scissors and we find out that our rock isn't actually a rock but a piece of petrified droppings. It all falls apart in our hands and we are left with the distinct smell of gak.

But to play along, the Orks would lose Tankbustas, Meganobz, and Warbikes..... So we have almost answers to vehicles and our only durable units are gone so its Nob Biker spam and watch as your insanely overpriced 2 wound bikes get torn to bits by ignore cover shooting..... or melee. Maybe we can double Orkcurion to do that MSU Deffkopta spam list. Extreme MSU and pray for turn 5 to be the last turn.

I was thinking including Mek Gunz instead of Tankbustas, but pretty much the same.

I don't even know what my Renegades would lose. It's a really nice list with nothing really bad nor nothing really over the top in it, maybe Rapiers, Wyverns and Quad Launchers.

What about skitarii, tempestus, clowns, inquisition...

Besides, is the Banhammer a Baneblade variant? What is the weapon loadout?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


Besides, is the Banhammer a Baneblade variant? What is the weapon loadout?

Lol that was my first thought too. It's weapon load out is a vortex grenade launcher. Assault 40, Strength D, Large Template, Vortex.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
What do my eyes see? Another topic whining about the Tau? Did a Riptide touch you in a bad place? Let me get the primarch doll and you can show the courtroom exactly where it touched you.

Maybe you should get your eyes checked if that's what you're seeing.

Its almost like this thread is about listing off the top 3 units in each codex and discussing how it would change the general power levels.

In other words, pump the brakes there big shoots. No need to activate your nova reactor for full defensive mode yet.

To be on topic, Guard would ban Wyverns, Veterans and...Vendettas? Can't think of a good third one. It would really bring the codex down by a lot, seeing as vets are generally a superior troop option outside of using allies to make some kind of super blob. Wyverns are the best artillery in the vanilla codex, leaving Guard players to rely on Bassies and Manticores for any sort of long range firepower, especially horde clearing.

Eh, Manticores are pretty good and Vendettas lost a bit with the new DFtS supplement. I'd hate to see Wyverns gone, they're one of the few good units that IG has at the moment.

 General Kroll wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


Besides, is the Banhammer a Baneblade variant? What is the weapon loadout?

Lol that was my first thought too. It's weapon load out is a vortex grenade launcher. Assault 40, Strength D, Large Template, Vortex.

I like it! We could add that the model or squad targeted, if killed, cannot be fielded the next game.

Just one question: are you the guy who wrote Grav weapons?

What units get cut from DE? Grots, Reavers, Venoms? Good lord, they'd be unplayable.

BA win this! I can replace any one mediocre underperforming unit with any other! Even DC are completely replaceable.

I imagine my Dark Angels would lose Ravenwing Knights, the Dark Shroud, and either Ravenwing Bike Squads or Drop Pods.

The tone-deaf version: BAN ALL THE ELDAR AND SPESS MEHREEENS! THEN BAN THE TAU.

In reality though, I'd instead ban all non-CAD detachments. Yes this means the Allied Detachment too. One of the reason spam is so viable is because the formations and unbound basically gives you a free ticket to doing so.

Then I'd shift the Eldar Jetbikes to Fast Attack (where they belong) and reduce their scatter laser/shuriken cannon to 1 per squad. Oh and remove large vehicle squadrons and monstrous creature squads for everyone except Imperial Guard and Tyranids (the only two factions that have a legit reason for having squadrons/MC squads).

Anything else would require entire rewrites of the rules.

Oh, so you would ban fluffy army-specific detachments such as Ork Horde or Realspace Raiders? I see no reason to be that drastic.

 bomtek80 wrote:
Hmmm...for vanilla SM codex...

Librarians
Centurion Devestators
Drop Pods.

Watch the power level drop considerably. They would still have a few decent options but the OP army builds would be greatly reduced.

You forget to take away Grav Cannon cum Grav-amp as a whole.

Here's my quick take on armies with their top 3 most "in-codex" units banned, regardless of how it affects things:

Space Marines: Drop Pods, Centurions, Space Marine Independent Characters on Bikes.
Nothing in the codex is quite as bad once it has to actually start crossing the battlefield, rather than just arriving perfectly, and after this change of getting rid of drop pods, the whole question about whether or not the doors count as part of the model goes out the window! Hurray!!(?)! Centurions go, but that's a problem of Grav and them being the best unit holding Grav, so I feel like this unfairly captures them in the crossfire of bannings. Space Marines will have to use Predators and Devastators again. Lastly, I was tempted to say "Bikes", but even I couldn't be brought to ban that. Rather, banning Independent Characters on bikes, as that's more of the issue. Without a Librarian on a bike, Space Marines will be more constrained on psychic power uses, and without a Captain on a bike, Space Marines can't take Bikes as Troops, which is the other issue.

Unaffected: Gladius Strike Force
The Skyhammer can't be used (no pods), and the Librarius Conclave isn't as bad when they're all on foot. The Gladius Strike Force mostly comes out looking pretty though, as no single part of it is broken, so "unit" bannings hardly affect it.

Space Marine Variants: same as Space Marines
Exact same applies to the variants. This is where I know that these are problem units. When even variant codexes try to act the same by using the same broken stuff, it makes them feel less like variants.

Craftworld Eldar: Wraithknight, Windrider Jetbikes, Farseers
The first two entries on here were easy. The last... not so much. I mean, outside of Wraithknights and Jetbikes being so good as to be all-pants bonkers, everything else is about the same level of power across the Eldar codex. As such, the next most complained about unit is the classic Farseer, and that's a shame to see it banned. Jetbikes hurt because when not broken they're incredibly fun. Wraithknights doesn't hurt to ban at all. What's left? A beautifully balanced codex that has to struggle to make its parts work, but each part is still wonderfully good at doing what it does, making for a fun game. The only thing that really makes the Farseer annoying is how good they are at getting off their powers, but the Avatar, the Spiritseer, and the Phoenix Lords or Autarch can pick up the pace in there spots.

Unaffected: Wraithguard, Forge World stuff
D-Scythe Wraithguard will still be a thing, but that's infinitely more manageable in this environment. Watch out for those Wave Serpents. In this situations, the War Host will actually be useful and used, as it will give the Eldar the extra speed they'll need. Most of their weapons on other platforms are much shorter range, and free 6 inches of movement every shooting phase really adds up over a game and contributes to what "true" Eldar games feel like (hard to catch them, but satisfyingly squishy when you do). Heavily undercosted stuff like the Lynx would likely take over though, which is unfortunate, but at least lots of gaming groups don't have anyone with heavy access to forge world stuff.

Tau: Stormsurge, Riptide, Ghostkeel
Again, first two entries easy, and after that more difficult. The worst offenders are easy to find - you just look for armies made up of almost exclusively those units. Well, Riptide Wings certainly qualify. The last entry was either the Ghostkeel or the Broadside, and I went with the Ghostkeel because of the FAQ making it that units of 3 of these are invisible all game long, which means that without the other two, this thing jumps right in as most annoying ever. Like the Space Marine's grav weapons, markerlights are extremely powerful and cause of much consternation, but it's their general ability and not the unit totting them that's the issue. At least Pathfinders can be pinned.

Unaffected: Piranha spam, Broadside spam, Pathfinders
Unfortunately, I don't think these bans fix the real problem with the Tau - that they are intrinsically an unfun army to fight against, regardless of their power. There's lots of units to fill the gaps, and the underlying cause - army based entirely on overwhelming firepower that dies instantly when you get to them - is just a bad idea. I've had friends try to play Tau like in the fluff (mobile, repositioning Fire Warriors with Devilfishes, supported by some big guns), and they just don't work.

Daemons of Chaos: Fateweaver, Belakor, Lord of Change
Flying summoners spamming out more daemons that make yet more daemons are the top three, and it's the flying part of the equation that makes it over the top. Force them to hide more by merely taking Heralds, and it gets more under control. Without these, the next likely thing is Nurgle Bloatfly spam, which points to a codex full of one-trick ponies. Unfortunately, I don't really know what the Daemons would be outside of these, as their fluff is either them washing over things, or just kinda disappearing.

Unaffected: Pink Horrors, Tetrach, Daemon Princes
Of course, you can still get flying psykers even with these changes, so nothing will really fundamentally change.

Khorne Daemonkin: Hounds, Soulgrinders, Heldrake
We're officially out of the broken zone, because outside of Hounds, I didn't know what to put here. Hounds are the only thing people complain about. The Heldrake used to be worse when it had butt-blasting powers, but now it's pretty tame. The big Super Heavy doesn't even cause people to bat an eye, though it was up here for a time just because it's super-heavy. I'm afraid without the Hounds, Khorne Daemonkin become mostly relegated to "that's a neat looking army".

Eldar Harlequins: Solitaire, Death Jester, Shadowseer
And now the army is completely boned.

Chaos Space Marines: Chaos Sorcerer, Chaos Raptors, Forgefiend
Ummm... seriously, what to pick on? I guess the Sorcerer and Raptors, because of the new hot psychic powers and formations, but outside of that there's nothing really on the short list here.

Grey Knights: Nemesis Dreadknight, Draigo, Interceptors
Teleport shunting is the bane of many people, and by that I mean the Dreadknight. Take that away, and these are largely overpriced marines with some marginally better guns and lots of novas. Honestly, might be fun.

Dark Eldar: Archon, Raider, Talos Pain Engine
I'm honestly not sure what the Dark Eldar will do here. Flyers maybe? Just lots of flyers, all over the place, while perhaps some well hidden stuff pops out on occasion to take an objective.

Orks: Big Mek, Stompa, Lootas
The best thing for Orks is how resilient some stuff can be, and how much firepower they can dish out. It's sad that the best thing in a close combat army is their shooting stuff.

Tyranids: Hive Tyrant, Mawloc, Tervigon
I really don't know what Tyranids would do without these. I mean, HQ-choices alone, they're completely out to lunch without the Hive Tyrant.

Astra Militarum: Valkyrie, Leman Russ Battle Tank, Manticore
Manticore is strong, and Valkyries are one of the best flyers in the game, but still, these would suck to see gone. Leman Russ tank is on this list just because of all it's variants, there are a couple that are useful.

Imperial Knights: Knight Crusader, Knight Warden, Knight Palladin
There's only two in-codex knights left, the Errant and the Gallant. Both of which have much larger blind spots when unsupported. Both will still show up, because Knights, and Forge World will just take over because they have the really OP Knights anyways.

Sisters of Battle: Sorry, I refuse.

Deathwatch: Too new. Not enough info yet.

Genestealer Cult: See Deathwatch.

Necrons: Wraiths, Tomb Blades, Destroyers
Wraiths are one of the strongest units in the game, as they have multiple wounds and 3+ invul, and in the formation get Resurrection Protocols. Tomb Blades are incredibly points-efficient and fast in an army that has no right to be. Destroyers are nearly as good as Eldar Windrider Jetbikes but they are nearly twice the cost. Result? Still annoying because they still will refuse to die, and still more manoeuvrable than they should be because then we'd be looking at their very effective transport options. But still, at least then you're not restricted in your movement by those dang Wraiths.

Unaffected: Doom Scythe, Ghost Ark, Triarch Stalker, Flayed Ones, C'Tan, Deathmarks...
The army would still work without these units, and would still feel like overwhelming ancient technology.

Assassins: You only can take the Eversor, because there are only 4 units in the entire codex.
My favourite exploding slaughter-machine gets to stay.

Adeptus Mechanicus/Skitarii: Kataphron Destroyers, Robot Maniples, Onager Dunecrawler
I really wouldn't want to see all three go, but a world with less Grav and less things that get all the shooting ever is a nice world. At least these two go hand in hand so well that even if you took these out, you likely would still have something that's really cool, though it'll likely have the snot beat out of it.

So, using the armies I play:

Eldar: Wraithknights, Warp Spiders and Windriders would be gone. All in all Eldar would still be pretty strong afterward.

Tau: Riptides, Stormsurges and Marker Drones would be gone. Drops from upper mid-tier/lower high-tier (but that really wrecks what it works against) to mid-tier. Honestly, you'd still have Ghostkeels, Crisis Suits, Hammerheads, etc, and all those are pretty strong.

Space Marines: Librarians, Drop Pods and... well, since we're banning units, not wargear, Devastator Centurions. SM would remain strong but would drop from high-tier to upper mid-tier.

Sisters: Uriah Jacobus, Ministorum Priests and Saint Celestine, unless you want to ban the only Troops choice, which would leave them completely unplayable outside Unbound. With the three I named out, Sisters would drop from the high end of the garbage tier to... probably somewhere just above Orks.

Militarum Tempestus: Scions, Command Squads and Valkyries. Unplayable.

Inquisition: Inquisitor Coteaz, Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor. Drops from low-tier to bottom of low-tier, but still has some utility as an ally. Just not what it's generally used for now.

Dark Eldar: Grotesques, Reavers and either Venoms or Kabalite Warriors. Drops from low-tier to "made of stench", but still technically playable, depending on which of the last two got banned. Kabalites in Raiders are still useful, and I suppose cheap Wych squads could be spammed in Venoms. Banning Raiders would eliminate almost all their utility as an ally.

Harlequins: Shadowseers, Skyweavers, Death Jesters. Honestly, Harlequin Troupes are stronger than Death Jesters, but dropping them makes the faction vanish. Without the three I mentioned, they become minimally useful and probably require Dark Eldar allies to be usable outside of Kill Team.

Edit

 Yarium wrote:
Here's my quick take on armies with their top 3 most "in-codex" units banned, regardless of how it affects things:
<snip>
Tau: Stormsurge, Riptide, Ghostkeel
Again, first two entries easy, and after that more difficult. The worst offenders are easy to find - you just look for armies made up of almost exclusively those units. Well, Riptide Wings certainly qualify. The last entry was either the Ghostkeel or the Broadside, and I went with the Ghostkeel because of the FAQ making it that units of 3 of these are invisible all game long, which means that without the other two, this thing jumps right in as most annoying ever. Like the Space Marine's grav weapons, markerlights are extremely powerful and cause of much consternation, but it's their general ability and not the unit totting them that's the issue. At least Pathfinders can be pinned.

Unaffected: Piranha spam, Broadside spam, Pathfinders
Unfortunately, I don't think these bans fix the real problem with the Tau - that they are intrinsically an unfun army to fight against, regardless of their power. There's lots of units to fill the gaps, and the underlying cause - army based entirely on overwhelming firepower that dies instantly when you get to them - is just a bad idea. I've had friends try to play Tau like in the fluff (mobile, repositioning Fire Warriors with Devilfishes, supported by some big guns), and they just don't work.
<kasnip>

One very slight quibble: Ghostkeels don't make themselves invisible. They can force one unit to snap-shoot at them, not all units. The fact that a squad can do that three times is irritating, stupid and unnecessary, but it's not actually as bad as "Invisibility, but undeniable and without any Psychic test".

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


Besides, is the Banhammer a Baneblade variant? What is the weapon loadout?

Lol that was my first thought too. It's weapon load out is a vortex grenade launcher. Assault 40, Strength D, Large Template, Vortex.

I like it! We could add that the model or squad targeted, if killed, cannot be fielded the next game.

Just one question: are you the guy who wrote Grav weapons?

Yes, and the D Scythe.

Skitarii would probably lose Vanguard, Infiltrators, and Onagers.

Shockingly, I think they'd still be playable.

Wait, Farsight/Shadowsun shipping?

What?

I guess I need to read more Tau threads.