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my friend and I kind of were talking about it....

He has never been too fond of the Horus Heresy era, the Primarchs etc. because he felt they focused too much on these "superheroes" than the common man.

I argue that 40k would of been no where near as popular if it wasn't for the Horus Heresy era.... And I think most fans like the Primarchs then those that don't.

What do you think, would it still be as popular as it was if not for the Horus Heresy background

It was before they started talking about it forever and ever.

 n0t_u wrote:
It was before they started talking about it forever and ever.

I though the Horus Heresy background started in 2006 when Black Library started to write the books?

LightKing wrote:
my friend and I kind of were talking about it....

He has never been too fond of the Horus Heresy era, the Primarchs etc. because he felt they focused too much on these "superheroes" than the common man.

I argue that 40k would of been no where near as popular if it wasn't for the Horus Heresy era.... And I think most fans like the Primarchs then those that don't.

What do you think, would it still be as popular as it was if not for the Horus Heresy background

Impossible to say. You have to have some sort of background. If they replace the Horus Heresy/Primarchs stuff with something better... then yes, it would still be popular. If they replace with something better, then no. Having no background at all would probably make it less popular. People like to have some sort of story.

Hmm... good question. I always liked the 30k history/mythology long before HH novels existed, and it's been very cool to get to read about those stories in detail, but it wasn't something that pulled me into the hobby. On the other hand I can't say for sure whether I would have returned to the hobby a few years ago if I didn't have all of the HH background to fire my imagination

LightKing wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It was before they started talking about it forever and ever.

I though the Horus Heresy background started in 2006 when Black Library started to write the books?

No they key events have been in the background forever, it was just never fleshed out properly with novels. I think that's why the Alpha Legion are so appealing to some of us; in many ways they were a blank slate compared to the other legions so it's not fully known where their story is going and what ultimately happens with their primarchs

Most Heresy fluff is relatively recent, all in the last decade or so, while 40k went on for almost 20 years with naught but vague references and basic details of it. Hell, the Heresy wasnt even a thing when 40k was first released, only being introduced several years later.

The HH stuff is my least favorite part if the 40k universe. It was better as a vague mythic era that was left mostly to our imaginations. Most of the Primarchs come off as giant manchildren driven by immature personalities in godlike bodies. Their relatability is minimal and what there is of it is often rather juvenile. A lot of the HH stuff also clashes with some longstanding 41st millennium elements and is a lot less multidimensional, and a whole lot less subtle. The execution of a lot of the HH fluff is lacking, and draws back too much of the curtain from what once was just the narrative backdrop.

The idea of the Horus Heresy has been around since the early days of 40K, with the first Chaos books. The Primarchs and detailed events were added with each edition, the founding legions received a series of articles in WD to flesh them out further and then the books started being written, FW really went all out with 30K armies and now GW proper is doing plastics.

If they hadn't done Heresy stuff, who can say how popular 40K would be. They would've done something else instead.

40K was very popular long before they delved into the Heresy books and making rules for the era.

I think a lot of the draw to the Heresy setting was the relative "seriousness" of the tone when compared to 5th edition "Ward era." I honestly believe that 40K could have still kept it's numbers up without the Heresy becoming it's own game/setting.

If they had spent that effort on filling out Chaos/Legions and evoking the "past" in tone, I'm sure they would have been selling Chaos armies like hotcakes. Marine vs. Marine action in 40K works just as well, thematically. The Imperium is cursed to play out those old battles forever, players don't actually have to play the "history".

 Vaktathi wrote:
It was better as a vague mythic era that was left mostly to our imaginations. . . .

The execution of a lot of the HH fluff is lacking, and draws back too much of the curtain from what once was just the narrative backdrop.

Word. I completely agree.

Yes it would.

Thing is a lot of the HH fans were already fans of the series. They just went to the HH because,

A) It had actual story progression into it.
B) They could do a lot more fun, and cool things with characters and chapters since it was not written as long as they ended in the same place as 40k it s all good

C) The rules for the game are better.

so what year did the primarchs become part of the fluff?

LightKing wrote:
so what year did the primarchs become part of the fluff?

since first ed

1990 at the latest, with the printing of The Lost and the Damned, tho I think primarchs may have been mentioned in some of the supplements or WD articles prior to it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

The HH stuff is my least favorite part if the 40k universe. It was better as a vague mythic era that was left mostly to our imaginations. Most of the Primarchs come off as giant manchildren driven by immature personalities in godlike bodies. Their relatability is minimal and what there is of it is often rather juvenile. A lot of the HH stuff also clashes with some longstanding 41st millennium elements and is a lot less multidimensional, and a whole lot less subtle. The execution of a lot of the HH fluff is lacking, and draws back too much of the curtain from what once was just the narrative backdrop.

I couldn't agree more.

When were the original epic scale games released? Weren't they set in heresy times?

I never really delved into them when I first got started; painting 28mm models was fiddly enough as it was, thank you very much!

Personally I think Dawn of War has helped increase the popularity of 40k over the last decade or so.

In a way, Indrick Boreale has done more to increase the visibility of GW's IP than all the Primarchs combined.

 BBAP wrote:
Personally I think Dawn of War has helped increase the popularity of 40k over the last decade or so.

In a way, Indrick Boreale has done more to increase the visibility of GW's IP than all the Primarchs combined.

Oh my.

 BBAP wrote:
Personally I think Dawn of War has helped increase the popularity of 40k over the last decade or so.

In a way, Indrick Boreale has done more to increase the visibility of GW's IP than all the Primarchs combined.

Eh its a yes and no sorta thing, cant really compare the primarchs to a DoW character, or any 40k video game character for that matter. SInce the only way you really find out about the primarchs is if you read into the lore.

Its like saying Dark vader did more for star wars then darth bane, yeah you are not wrong, but its not really a competition at that point since one is in the stop light to the public the other is not.

THAT SAID, I do agree dawn of war was very good for getting the universe out there.

But as to the OP, i would say yes, because again, look at the 40k video games, those are all set in 40k not 30k, they could completely cut out the primarch and it would still be fine.

Now when you are asking this, are you saying would it be as popular if they removed what part of HH/30k/primarchs? The lore entirely or just the books and HH games and leave it as, "There were 20 of them, 2 went missing, of the remaining half went traitor the other stayed loyalist" nothing more nothing less?

The heresy got its first big boost fluffwise with the epic game "Adeptus Titanicus" to explain why Faction X was fighting Faction Y with near identical gear.

The heresy and the entire mirror of paradise lost that is the primarch fall from grace/brother v brother internecine fighting trope just picked it up from there.

LightKing wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It was before they started talking about it forever and ever.

I though the Horus Heresy background started in 2006 when Black Library started to write the books?

The game was already 20 years old at that point.

 Vaktathi wrote:

The HH stuff is my least favorite part if the 40k universe. It was better as a vague mythic era that was left mostly to our imaginations.

Yup I agree 100%. In fact I'd apply that to most Warhammer 40k "history", I'd rather all of that effort was put into developing technical aspects like how things work, planet topography, city maps, weapon specs etc
The trash novels should just be one off adventure stories with little impact on the world or destroying it but not as canon.
Just flesh out the world for us and we'll mess around with destroying it.

When I first started (Rogue trader era) the 30k period and the primarchs were only ever hinted at. Kind of myth like stories that we were never going to get to the bottom of. As GW/40k progressed so too did the back story, we slowly started to learn about the great Heresy, the taint of chaos and the final battle aboard Horus's barge.
As the Black Library started to release the HH books I lapped them up, loving every mention of primarchs I'd only before heard vague references to. But the flip side of this is that it lost some of it's mysterious unknown appeal. And I've now heard so many different references to the dropsite massacre I feel as though I fought there myself!
And like many others as much as I want the story line to eveolve and move forward I also feel it will be the end of the myth.
I was drawn into the game because of Space marines fighting aliens, I stayed because of the rich background and cool models. 30k/primarchs just happened to be part of that world.

Think about it this way: when you or any of your friends first strarted playing warhammer, did any of you know/care about the HH?
I for one have never met anyone who started off playing 30k then transitioned to 40k. People learn about 40k first, then they start playing a few games, then they start looking into the fluff of 40k and that is when they even notice there is a 30k.

And what about the people who play Xenos? They might find 30k interesting but it has nothing to do with their army and wouldn't affect them if the HH didn't even happen.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Think about it this way: when you or any of your friends first strarted playing warhammer, did any of you know/care about the HH?
I for one have never met anyone who started off playing 30k then transitioned to 40k. People learn about 40k first, then they start playing a few games, then they start looking into the fluff of 40k and that is when they even notice there is a 30k.

And what about the people who play Xenos? They might find 30k interesting but it has nothing to do with their army and wouldn't affect them if the HH didn't even happen.

As a game 30k didnt exist until very recently, I think epic was loosely supposed to based on the heresy but it also ended up being 40k (I could be wrong on that one)

 Huron black heart wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Think about it this way: when you or any of your friends first strarted playing warhammer, did any of you know/care about the HH?
I for one have never met anyone who started off playing 30k then transitioned to 40k. People learn about 40k first, then they start playing a few games, then they start looking into the fluff of 40k and that is when they even notice there is a 30k.

And what about the people who play Xenos? They might find 30k interesting but it has nothing to do with their army and wouldn't affect them if the HH didn't even happen.

As a game 30k didnt exist until very recently, I think epic was loosely supposed to based on the heresy but it also ended up being 40k (I could be wrong on that one)

My point still stands that most, if not all, new players to 40k have probably never heard of the HH

In my case specifically it was Horus Rising's release that pulled me in - having a self-contained, refreshed starting point for the lore was really appealing. That it didn't actually deliver is another matter, but by then I was hooked.

Probably.

The reason it was popular for so long was because of its high-quality plastic miniatures, and most of the Horus Heresy stuff was invented after WH40k became popular.

Nowadays there are other companies making plastic miniatures of a similar quality to GW minis, selling them for less money, with better rules that also cost less and in many cases are free. So the only reasons to be playing WH40k at all nowadays are either that you really like the lore background, or you're unwilling to move on to another game that is both better and cheaper, due to the amount of money/time you've already invested into your WH40k hobby.

 Pouncey wrote:
Probably.

The reason it was popular for so long was because of its high-quality plastic miniatures, and most of the Horus Heresy stuff was invented after WH40k became popular.

Nowadays there are other companies making plastic miniatures of a similar quality to GW minis, selling them for less money, with better rules that also cost less and in many cases are free. So the only reasons to be playing WH40k at all nowadays are either that you really like the lore background, or you're unwilling to move on to another game that is both better and cheaper, due to the amount of money/time you've already invested into your WH40k hobby.

The reason it was popular for so long was because it was THE wargame: the largest playerbase, the most developed seting and the largest model range for at least two decades. Nowadays it still is if you don't dig Star Wars universe much. DOW made GW universe known to the "general gamers public". Only recently, there is enough competition to have practical choice (by practical I mean both model availability and playerbase in your area) and only if you aim at "general idea of tabletop gaming". It still has some unique factions, which aesthetics or feel you may enjoy, that are absent in other systems. Tell me - what other game has a significant Eldar, Genestealer Cults or AdMech equivalents? I see the "better rules and cheaper models of similiar quality" argument in every single "GW is crap" debate here on dakka, but never has anyone been able to name the game which would be a direct alternative for WH40K - not a skirmish level Infinity, not a 10mm Dropzone, not a "rip-off" Warpath universe with four small factions (which all look like anime armour put on a differently shaped humanoid)... There are alternatives if you just want a wargame, there are a lot other games if you want small model count skirmishes or WWII feel games, but nothing really to compete with 40K as a whole experience. And most alternatives that emerge usually die out due to lack of players within a couple of years... Who still plays Wolsung or Neuroshima, or even heard of them? Many games have only US coverage, some are European only, shortly lasting phenomenons. X-Wing managed because it had the whole Star Wars universe to back it up - you don't invent a catching setting overnight from scratch...

nou wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Probably.

The reason it was popular for so long was because of its high-quality plastic miniatures, and most of the Horus Heresy stuff was invented after WH40k became popular.

Nowadays there are other companies making plastic miniatures of a similar quality to GW minis, selling them for less money, with better rules that also cost less and in many cases are free. So the only reasons to be playing WH40k at all nowadays are either that you really like the lore background, or you're unwilling to move on to another game that is both better and cheaper, due to the amount of money/time you've already invested into your WH40k hobby.

The reason it was popular for so long was because it was THE wargame: the largest playerbase, the most developed seting and the largest model range for at least two decades. Nowadays it still is if you don't dig Star Wars universe much. DOW made GW universe known to the "general gamers public". Only recently, there is enough competition to have practical choice (by practical I mean both model availability and playerbase in your area) and only if you aim at "general idea of tabletop gaming". It still has some unique factions, which aesthetics or feel you may enjoy, that are absent in other systems. Tell me - what other game has a significant Eldar, Genestealer Cults or AdMech equivalents? I see the "better rules and cheaper models of similiar quality" argument in every single "GW is crap" debate here on dakka, but never has anyone been able to name the game which would be a direct alternative for WH40K - not a skirmish level Infinity, not a 10mm Dropzone, not a "rip-off" Warpath universe with four small factions (which all look like anime armour put on a differently shaped humanoid)... There are alternatives if you just want a wargame, there are a lot other games if you want small model count skirmishes or WWII feel games, but nothing really to compete with 40K as a whole experience. And most alternatives that emerge usually die out due to lack of players within a couple of years... Who still plays Wolsung or Neuroshima, or even heard of them? Many games have only US coverage, some are European only, shortly lasting phenomenons. X-Wing managed because it had the whole Star Wars universe to back it up - you don't invent a catching setting overnight from scratch...

You might want to re-read your first sentence. In order to have the largest playerbase, thus becoming the most popular, it has to offer something that other games don't, that makes everyone want to play it over any other game.

As for the better games that are cheaper, Warmachine/Hordes and Infinity are two I can name off the top of my head. You could just go look at the non-GW game forums on this site if you want other examples.

Most people I know that play the game have a vague idea of the story of their own army, and not much else. The Horus Heresy has certainly not done anything for their fandom of the game.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Most Heresy fluff is relatively recent, all in the last decade or so, while 40k went on for almost 20 years with naught but vague references and basic details of it. Hell, the Heresy wasnt even a thing when 40k was first released, only being introduced several years later.

The HH stuff is my least favorite part if the 40k universe. It was better as a vague mythic era that was left mostly to our imaginations. Most of the Primarchs come off as giant manchildren driven by immature personalities in godlike bodies. Their relatability is minimal and what there is of it is often rather juvenile. A lot of the HH stuff also clashes with some longstanding 41st millennium elements and is a lot less multidimensional, and a whole lot less subtle. The execution of a lot of the HH fluff is lacking, and draws back too much of the curtain from what once was just the narrative backdrop.

Agreed. Though I haven't been playing the tabletop for very long, I've played DoW and Dark Heresy for years, and I always preferred to think of the Horus Heresy as an ancient legend that has been retold thousands upon millions of time, each time the event getting further and further from the truth. To me, it was sort of like the 40k equivalent of the stories of Hercules and Achilles. I even had a cool bit of head cannon: The "Horus Heresy" was actually just a galactic rebellion orchestrated by the first Space Marines. After the rebellion was eventually put down, the High Lords of Terra came up with a plan to try to prevent such a bloody uprising from ever occurring again. They would bind the Imperium together with the most effective form of control known to our species: organized religion. They created a mythical figure. A man who led the forces of the Imperium to victory in its darkest hour and gave his life for his people: the God Emperor of Mankind.