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Seeing as there are many disputes over which Primarch was the strongest I want to see who everyone thinks were the strongest or weakest Primarchs. Here are the rules:

1. Ratings are based on the Primarchs as they were at the time of Horus's betrayal at Istvan III, so daemonhood is discounted.
2. One on one fight (obviously) with full wargear used by the respective available at the time of the outbreak of heresy
3. Debating others choices is allowed but keep it civil please


From best to worst:

1. Horus (obviously)
2. Angron
3. Sanguinius
4. Konrad Curze
5. Leman Russ
6. Fulgrim
7. Corax
8. Lion El' Jonson
9. Vulkan
10. Jaghitai Khan
11. Ferrus Manus
12. Mortarion
13. Rogal Dorn
14. Roboute Guilliman
15. Perturabo
16. Magnus
17. Alpharius/Omegon
18. Lorgar

I'd switch Angron on for fulgrim (one of the few actual primarch killers) bump curze way down and lift lion'el way up (lion curbstomping curze). I also think Vulkan is too highly ranked along with jaghati while Corax and gulliman are too low.

As much as Khorn fanboys hate to admit it fulgrim is far more adept in close combat, killing 2 primarchs is a feat not many can claim in 40k. Angron has yet to kill one yet.

Reavas wrote:
As much as Khorn fanboys hate to admit it fulgrim is far more adept in close combat, killing 2 primarchs is a feat not many can claim in 40k. Angron has yet to kill one yet.

Fulgrim was possessed by Daemons/a Daemon himself when he did both of those things and it's based on the Primarchs abilities at the time of Istvan III. Daemonhood is discounted. Agree Vulkan was placed too highly though.

I think both Angron and Sanguinius could kill Horus in single combat with no Chaos interference.

Without the demon sword, Manus would have killed Fulgrim. Fulgrim down, Manus up.

The poll doesn't say no psyker powers- Magnus WAY up, maybe past Angron and Sang.

Corax was too slow against suicidal Lorgar to be in the top 10. Way down.

Curze has been split into Night Haunter and Konrad Curze. In all fairness, I'd bet money on crazy-Curze against Horus or Magnus, but we have no sources... especially since Konrad is suicidal and is crazy-emo. That said, the only primarch-on-primarch fight that was entirely one-sided was unarmed Haunter vs unarmed Dorn. Haunter beat that bitch so bad s/he was gaking bricks about facing Haunter compared to fighting Angron or Horus.


1. Angron
2. Sanguinius
3. Magnus
4. Horus
5. Night Haunter
6. Leman Russ
7. Fulgrim
8. Lion El' Jonson
9. Jaghitai Khan
10. Ferrus Manus
11. Mortarion
12. Perturabo
13. Rogal Dorn
14. Roboute Guilliman
15. Konrad Curze
16. Corax
17. Alpharius/Omegon
18. Lorgar
19. Vulkan

@EmpNorton

Russ easily beat the crap out of Magnus. I don't think he would have stood much of a chance vs Vulkan, Angron, Horus or Fulgrim either. When Fulgrim and Manus fought before Fulgrim got possessed he beat Manus twice. Why all the hate for Vulkan? He managed to beat Curze (albeit by surprise though).

if we're giving mad props for killing a primarch remember Dorn is the ONLY loyalist primarch with a confirmed kill of a traitor Primarch

BrianDavion wrote:
if we're giving mad props for killing a primarch remember Dorn is the ONLY loyalist primarch with a confirmed kill of a traitor Primarch

To be fair, he did get an opening as a result of one of his Huscarls coming in to aid him. It wasn't strictly one on one.

 Grimskul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if we're giving mad props for killing a primarch remember Dorn is the ONLY loyalist primarch with a confirmed kill of a traitor Primarch

To be fair, he did get an opening as a result of one of his Huscarls coming in to aid him. It wasn't strictly one on one.

maybe but it had to be noted

I'll go ahead and say Magnus is by far the most powerful. Psykers are scary.

I have to disagree with Horus being that high up. He's a leader first and foremost.

Are we assuming they are all willing to fight to the death? If not, then Curze and Russ have an advantage of being decidedly more dirty than the others.
Personally I feel the most efficient manner of doing this is via tiers.
Bottom tier: the Primarchs who are not noted to have any particular military prowess compared to the others. For me these are Vulkan (The poor bastard is always dying and only got more effective after going crazy), Corax (Good an sneaking, but poor fighting record), Perterabo (never mentioned as being unusual in close combat, more of a strategist), pre-chaos Lorgar (everyone thought he was the weakest. He did have some level of psychic powers though, I don't know how powerful).
Above Bottom: Dorn (recent events suggest he should be above bottom level), Alpharius (almost killed Dorn, the two of them fighting together should also place higher), Guilliman (More of a Strategist, but he has examples of fighting Primarchs well enough)
Medium: Manus (beaten by Fulgrim, that's basically all I know about him), Khan (don't know much about him beyond nonsense from Alfabruva's hilarity), Mortarion (on a level with the Khan),
Above Medium: Fulgrim (generally placed higher, but his main accomplishments were post-corruption/ascension), Lion (beat curze and is one of the best swordsmen), Curze (whatever your opinion of him, he has more than enough of a record against Dorn, Corax, Lion and such to be here), Russ (He's above average but not on the level of the top-tier. Its telling that in his 2 main victories- Magnus and Angron, he would have lost both without outside help, so I don't think he's on their level).
Top: Horus, Sanguinius, Angron. Bar Horus, I don't think these ones are ever really disputed.

My 2 cents.
I would place Magnus top tier if powers are in play (which they should be), Above Bottom otherwise.

Fluff-wise, Alpharius had Dorn on the point of his Necron pig-sticker, but Archamus saves Dorn.

As with Jaghatai, nobody knew how good he was - read Scars. He was apparently much better than Mortarion.

Magnus was maybe one of the single-most powerful, purely due to his psychic prowess.

 buddha wrote:
I'd switch Angron on for fulgrim (one of the few actual primarch killers) bump curze way down and lift lion'el way up (lion curbstomping curze). I also think Vulkan is too highly ranked along with jaghati while Corax and gulliman are too low.

Curze curbstomped the Lion like a gazelle on Tsagualsa first; if it hadn't been for Corswain tickling Curze's spine with his sword, Curze would have choked the Lion to death.

A lot of shouts for Corax to be lowered but in deliverance lost he states that in 1v1 duels historically he beat curze more often than not and had a 50/50 record with horus. His portrayal is a little wonky in the books so far though, so hard to say with certainty, girlyman gets slapped regularly though :(

The FW stats are fluff-based, so they are quite accurate.

Anyways, in terms of pure 1vs1 combat prowess here are my ideas.
Top Rank:
1. Angron (As a gladiator turned bloodthirsty berserker, fighting is all Angron has ever done. He also defeated Leman Russ in 1vs1 combat. The fact that he is called 'The Red Angel' tells you all you need to know about him.)
2. Perturabo (The Lord of Iron is pretty much a living mountain. He also smashed Fulgrim into a pulp despite the latter's trickery. The fact that Perturabo is completely confident in going after and fighting Fulgrim at the height of his power and the fact that he defeated him without any deamonic aid of his own is what gets Perturabo this spot.)
3. Fulgrim (Renowned as a great fighter and duelist, a reputation he lived up to by defeating 2 other Primarchs, which is a feat no other Primarch can boast of. Even without the aid of Chaos, he still remains incredibly skilled and powerful)
4. Leman Russ (The Wolf King snapped Magnus' spine over his knee and could stand up to Angron quite well)
5. Lion el'Jonson (Famed as a great swordsman, defeated Curze and was capable of matching Leman Russ in a brawl)

Medium rank:
6. Sanguinius (He may look like a pretty boy, but he was known as a great fighter and eats greater daemons of Khorne for breakfast. Apart from that he does not have many feats however and he was completely unable to stand up to Horus even a little bit, which is why I rank him lower than most rank him.)
7. Horus (Lupercal was known for his great prowess in personal combat, but most of his feats were accomplished with the aid of the Chaos gods, so it is hard to judge him properly. After his fall to Chaos he certainly becomes #1, killing Sanguinius without much effort and he would have even gotten away with slaying the Emperor if it had not been for that one meddling Guardsman)
8. Guilliman (Noted as a capable fighter and held his own against Angron and Lorgar.)
9. Jaghatai Khan and Mortarion (These 2 have little in the way of feats, and were completely matched with each other, which is why they get to share a spot in the middle)
10. Ferrus Manus. (He lost his head in the fight with Fulgrim but seemed to be quite a solid fighter)
11. Vulkan (overpowered Curze even after being tortured)

Low rank.
12. Corax (Difficult one. Had trouble against Lorgar, and does not have many feats apart from that. Relies probably on hit and run tactics more than fair fights)
13. Magnus. (A great and powerful psyker, but that did not help him much when he had to face Russ in personal combat. Personal combat probably is not something that Magnus has spent much time training for.)
14. Curze (The Night Haunter fought a lot against other Primarchs, and generally holds his own quite well. He does virtually always get beaten in a fair fight though, which is why he is ranked so low. He is probably more of a murderer than a real fighter.)
15. Alpharius (Would have killed Dorn if the 1vs1 would have remained a 1vs1. Apart from that he is mostly a strategist and seems to be one of the physically weaker Primarchs)
16. Dorn (A strategist and tactician rather than a fighter. Lacks any impressive achievements and nearly got killed by Alpharius)
17. Lorgar (Lorgar was a preacher, he preferred fighting with words rather than weapons. He seems to be regarded as the physically weakest Primarch. After his fall to Chaos he did become a very powerful psyker though.)

Honestly it cant really be done, each writer gives the primarchs different power levels depending on who the story is revolving around.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Honestly it cant really be done, each writer gives the primarchs different power levels depending on who the story is revolving around.

Exactly...

Didn't Magnus curbstopped an Chaos Titan w/o breaking a sweat?

This is a really interesting thread, will try to rank them later

Broly wrote:


I have to disagree with Horus being that high up. He's a leader first and foremost.

He's everything first and foremost. He was the greatest primarch by being top 5 in just about everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Curze has been split into Night Haunter and Konrad Curze. In all fairness, I'd bet money on crazy-Curze against Horus or Magnus, but we have no sources... especially since Konrad is suicidal and is crazy-emo. That said, the only primarch-on-primarch fight that was entirely one-sided was unarmed Haunter vs unarmed Dorn. Haunter beat that bitch so bad s/he was gaking bricks about facing Haunter compared to fighting Angron or Horus.

Curze alternates between top 3 and bottom 3. He is never average.

Konrad is a savage, but he was technically defeated 1v1 by Lion in a decisive fight. That said he dueled Vulkan, as well as holding off both Roboute and Lion.

I'd also rank Roboute much higher but only because he is ranked so low.

Fulgrim I'd put at at least #3. Dude killed Roboute and Ferrus.

I also think Perturabo and Magnus are ranked too low and Russ ranked slightly too high. Some guesses in here as I don't know all the lore but what the hell.

1. Horus
2. Fulgrim
3. Angron
4. Lion El' Jonson
5. Konrad Curze
6. Leman Russ
7. Sanguinius
8. Corax
9. Jaghitai Khan
10. Roboute Guilliman
11. Vulkan
12. Perturabo
13. Magnus
14. Rogal Dorn
15. Mortarion
16. Ferrus Manus
17. Alpharius/Omegon
18. Lorgar

I might be being abit of a fanboy here but I'm really suprised at how low Sanguinius is being ranked. Personally, I'd rank them like this;

Tier 1:
1. Sanguinius
2. Angron
3. Horus

I always find the top 3 the most difficult to rank because imho Sanguinius would beat Horus, Horus would beat Angron but Angron would beat Sanguinius. However, Sangy takes first by virtue of having wings; the ability to take to the skies at any given moment and outmanouver his opponent gives him the edge. Angron took second over Horus because no one can mess a horde of tactial marines up the way Angron can.

Tier 2:
4. Fulgrim
5. The Lion
6. The Khan.
7. Leman Russ

Fulgrim was renowned as being a superlative swordsman, and proved it by taking Ferrus' head and defeating Guilliman (though he had demonic assistance in both fights). The Lion was a warriorborn, growing up on Caliban surrounded by daemons and blocking a strike from Curze that Guilliman didn't even see coming. The Khan (though enigmatic) is generally renowned as being a great warrior, and litteraly sheered the armour from Mortarian such was his prowess. Russ is one of those primarchs that I've never really got. He hasn't really done much. I read "Thousand Sons" ages ago so my memory might be abit off, but from what I remember Magnus was winning even though Leman had help from his wolves. He won by a lucky strike. Against Angron he got rekt (understandably in this instance) and thats it. Though it is hunted he slew one of the unknown primarchs. However, for all we know that primarch was as weak as Lorgar and anyone could have beat him.

Tier 3:
8. Curze
9. Corax
10. Ferrus Manus
11. Mortarian

People may be suprised at Curzes mediocre rank, but once more I've never been overly impressed by him. He scared Corax off, he didn't beat him. He got rekt by the Lion. Yes he slew Vulkan several times, but Vulkan is no fighter. It's hardly an accomplishment compared to Sanguinius killing Ka'bandha or Fulgrim killing Ferrus. Corax was a good warrior, but that's all. He just isn't in the same league to the others. Ferrus Manus got here by virtue of almost killing Fulgrim and Mortarian is here for not being beheaded by Jaghatai and being such a tank.

Tier 4:
12. Pertuarbo
13. Guilliman
14. Alpharius

AKA, the guys who are good at fighting but it isn't really there thing. Pertuarbo was constantly underestimated by his brothers, and I think that would give him the advantage the same way he had it over Fulgrim. Guilliman was good at most things, hence why he didn't wind up in the bottom tier. Alpharius is here because he is such a sneaky piece of crap xD.

Tier 5:
15. Vulkan
16. Magnus
17. Dorn
18. Lorgar

None of these are combat specialists, Vulkan got top because of his tankiness and Lorgar bottom because he was more preacher than warrior.

These rankings coule be switched up alot if I considered other factors than just "who had the most skill". For isntance, if they could use psychic powers Lorgar and Magnus would be way up high. If Vulkan was allowed to keep getting back up with his perpetual nature than so would he. If Alpharius could pick the battlefield than he is immeadiately more likely to win.

In Deliverance Lost, Corax is portrayed as having easily defeated Lorgar but he didn't have the guts to finish him. Also, he could easily cut down Gal Vorbak which is what angered Lorgar into fighting Corax. I think that we can all agree that Lorgar is at the bottom. I would rank Dorn, Vulkan, and Magnus near the bottom so something like this:

1. Angron
2.Fulgrim
3. Sanguinius
4. Lion El Johnston
5. Horus
6. Leman Russ
7. Great Khan
8. Corax
9. Curze
10. Alpharius only because he knew of what was to come and could've avoided it easily. Also said to have beaten Horus on a 1v1.
11. Ferrus Manus
12. Mortarion
13. Perturabo
14. Girlyman
15. Dorn
16. Magnus the Red
17. Vulkan
18. Lorgar

Magnus is WAY too low. Russ beating him was because he wasn't trying. He was lost after his father rebuked him so badly. He put up no struggle. He changed his mind later, but the initial fight was one sided by choice. Magnus didn't even touch on his abilities.

Dudeface wrote:
A lot of shouts for Corax to be lowered but in deliverance lost he states that in 1v1 duels historically he beat curze more often than not and had a 50/50 record with horus. His portrayal is a little wonky in the books so far though, so hard to say with certainty, girlyman gets slapped regularly though :(

Shut up Gav.
Go and steal some more traits. Damn it, well thieve the jet packs and the sneakyness and the now we do the the aerial assaults.


Depends what day of the week it is as to how high Curze rates.
Russ beat Magnus with the power of Fenris behind him. Totally not a pskyer. Lion knocks Russ out in a punch. So its the lion over those 3. Curze has the lions number most times.
Even Lorgars managed to punch up a Avatar. In the great avatar punching bag years.
No one apart from Sanguinius has slapped down a greater daemon yet. Well Horus prolly has in his trip behind the veil.

Cassor the Damned wrote:
imho Sanguinius would beat Horus, Horus would beat Angron but Angron would beat Sanguinius. However, Sangy takes first by virtue of having wings; the ability to take to the skies at any given moment and outmanouver his opponent gives him the edge.

.....huh?

You do realize that Horus killed Sanguinius, right?

I think he wanted to say Sanguinius would beat Horus without Chaos powers.
But I disagree.

 TedNugent wrote:
You do realize that Horus killed Sanguinius, right?

Whoops, someone missed the original post...

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Seeing as there are many disputes over which Primarch was the strongest I want to see who everyone thinks were the strongest or weakest Primarchs. Here are the rules:

1. Ratings are based on the Primarchs as they were at the time of Horus's betrayal at Istvan III, so daemonhood is discounted.
2. One on one fight (obviously) with full wargear used by the respective available at the time of the outbreak of heresy
3. Debating others choices is allowed but keep it civil please

There ya go.

The problem with trying to rank them is due to the rock paper scissors nature of trying to rank them is the anomalies that it causes.

Real Madrid could beat Barcelona, and Chelsea could then beat Real Madrid, does that mean Chelsea are the best soccer team on the planet by proxy of beating the team that beat the best team on the planet? No, it most likely does not.

In ways, the Primarch argument is even harder to account for that the situation above, due to the specialisations of certain Primarchs. If we all agree that Lorgar would lose to the vast majority of the Primarchs, but then could just happen to be able to beat Lemun Russ for example (unlikely but we'll stick with it). Does that then elevate him to above Russ? No it doesn't.

To properly try and estimate their strength, you'd need to compile a record of their duels, be it sparring or in combat and then allocate them points based on who won, lost or drew. Then see what the league table says. This is impossible though, as writers are not objective and there is not a full account of all of them fighting or sparring with each other.

I think it's a 20-way tie that's only broken when a writer decides who wins based on what the story needs at the moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, that Lemon Demon song comes to mind.




You may not expect whoever comes out on top to be the victor.

And free-for-alls are a hell of a clusterfeth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
TTo properly try and estimate their strength, you'd need to compile a record of their duels, be it sparring or in combat and then allocate them points based on who won, lost or drew. Then see what the league table says. This is impossible though, as writers are not objective and there is not a full account of all of them fighting or sparring with each other.

20 combatants fighting 19 combatants each. That's 380 duels.

One duel each would be unfair though. So you'd go for a "best of" system. Most sports in real life (the ones I've heard about, I mean) allow up to at least "best 4 out of 7" for their playoffs. So that's somewhere between 1520 duels (if all are settled in the first 4 rounds) and 2660 duels (if all take 7 rounds). And I don't think most of them are going to be settled in the first 4 rounds, so there is obviously some situation where a weaker combatant would beat a stronger combatant, and if these are duels to the death, well, maybe the first one is the one where the weaker combatant wins, and their opponent's death means no rematches or additional rounds can be fought.

So the way we know that Sanguinius could have defeated Horus is because he defeated Ka'Banda, a bloodthirster?

Lorgar defeated Ann'grath the Unbound, Lord of the Bloodthirsters in single combat.

An'ggrath the Unbound

So if your metric for being one of the most powerful primarchs in a universe is defeating a greater daemon, maybe you should reconsider where Lorgar and Sanguinius fall.

 TedNugent wrote:
So the way we know that Sanguinius could have defeated Horus is because he defeated Ka'Banda, a bloodthirster?

Lorgar defeated Ann'grath the Unbound, Lord of the Bloodthirsters in single combat.

An'ggrath the Unbound

So if your metric for being one of the most powerful primarchs in a universe is defeating a greater daemon, maybe you should reconsider where Lorgar and Sanguinius fall.

I think the duels would end the moment a Primarch remembered, "Wait a minute, I'm a Space Marine. Space Marines don't fight alone!" and then he'd, like, call in his Legion. Who would proceed to wreck the other Primarch. Or then all the Primarchs also call in their Legions. And then the Horus Heresy happened.