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I like both of them a lot but I have concerns about their special rules and how good they are.

Is there a clear difference in how good one or the other is?

Are they good at different things or are they both slap-happy armies?

Are they fun?

Ork questions:
Does mob rule decimate your army? I hear it means you hit yourself when you take pinning or morale checks.

'Nid questions:
Can Tervigons spawn termagaunts and/or hormagaunts?

How many synapse creatures are needed for a 1500 point army?

Is synapse difficult? What is the range of synapse?

What happens when something leaves synapse?

Termagaunts or Hormagaunts?

Always Orks. I've been playing Orks for going on 20 years. No other army I have played or collected has been as fun, win or lose.
The mob rule is brutal to smaller mobs. If I have 10 to 12 in a trukk and it exploded 4 at best will get out and at least 2 of those will be killed by the Nob to "maintain order". Leaving my nob and a Boy. It's like my dice don't like orks or something.
It ain't easy being green.
For larger mobs it's ok. the more you have the less you notice.
It's a good rule for the Green tide because it's basically a work around to them being fearless. But, again that's over 100 orks in a single unit. (It can never roll a 1 on the Mob rule chart.)
I guess it really comes down to which models excite you more.

Unfortunately, both are on the lower end of the power spectrum for 40k, since both books were written during a time where GW deliberately powered down codices and gutted a lot of stuff from both books.

I have some bias being an Ork player but I find them to be a lot of fun to play, even when I lose. The mindset of playing Orks is quite different from that of marines or other elite armies, as you can laugh off your losses from your ladz beating the dung out of other boyz to keep themselves in the fray and just see it as another challenge or giving it another go. Keep in mind Orks (and Tyranids as well) are not a forgiving army as you really need to specialize your lists to make them work, just taking random units from different FOC slots is a recipe for disaster.

They both have enough versatility to do different things, though Orks gain a lot more options if you use Imperial Armour 8 and for Tyranids the Malanthrope from IA2.

For your question about mob rule, I'd say quite the opposite as its been a clutch rule for me in many situations. Obviously it's not ideal for squads that have models that are less than 10, but even being able to roll that 1 for staying in combat is worth it. Also, although the D6 S4 AP- hits from passing mob rule may sting occasionally, most of the time it is mitigated from having to roll to wound (so normally only half get through) and in many cases, the armour saves you pass or FNP (which is almost guaranteed given how ubiquitous Painboyz are) mean losses are minimal and worth the cost compared to being swept in combat.

Tervigons only spawn termagants.

Not sure how many synapse creatures are ideal for 1500, but you at least want two from your flying hive tyrants with brainleech worms ideally. Probably ranges from 2-4 depending on your army comp.

Range of synapse is usually 12" unless you get the Norn Crown or other things that my extend it. It's fairly easy to keep the bubble in range of your units but it does make your synapse creatures target priority number one so you don't want to recklessly endanger them since all the instinctive tables are pretty penalizing on your units.

Generally Termagants are taken over Hormagaunts since you need to upgrade Hormagants to usually make them worthwhile which goes against the point of taking hordes in a Tyranid army, whereas the Termagants just work well with Tervigons.

 MrVulcanator wrote:

Is there a clear difference in how good one or the other is?

Neither army is very strong in general.
Tyranids have a slight edge competitively, as they at least have one build which does ok in tournaments. Which is basically just spamming as many flyrants as will fit into a list. However outside of flyrant spam, they're a bit dismal.
But unless you're playing in tournaments, you probably won't notice.

 MrVulcanator wrote:

Are they good at different things or are they both slap-happy armies?

Overall I'd say orks are better in close combat than nids. Nids really are a short ranged shooting army, that performs slightly above average in close combat.
Nids tend to have decent initiative, but lack grenades almost across the board, so often don't get to use it.
Orks tend to have more attacks, at higher strength. Plus with the option to add things like power klaws to a unit. Nids never did learn that trick.

 MrVulcanator wrote:

Are they fun?

Yes

 MrVulcanator wrote:

Can Tervigons spawn termagaunts and/or hormagaunts?

Tervigons can only spawn basic un-upgraded termagants.

 MrVulcanator wrote:

How many synapse creatures are needed for a 1500 point army?

Depends on the list.
Some critters need babysitters more than others. Things like Lictors have instinctive behaviour. However they're LD10, and you generally only play them in units of 1 model. So they rarely fail IB, and it doesn't really matter at all when they do.
Gaunts on the other hand are only LD6, and Terrible Things will happen when they fail IB. They need to be covered at all times.

You need to consider where units are expected to be positioned on the field when building your list, and ensure everything that needs to be covered is covered.
Taking into account things like the speed of synapse units. A zoanthrope could keep a unit of gargoyles covered, but those gargoyles move twice the speed of the zoanthrope, so they would be better covered by a flyrant or some shrikes.

 MrVulcanator wrote:

Is synapse difficult? What is the range of synapse?

No it's not difficult. There are a few things to keep in mind, like ensuring pile-in moves don't drag a unit of gaunts out of synapse range, where they proceed to get cut down at the end of combat. But it doesn't take long to get used to.
12" range in most cases. There are formations, a relic, a warlord trait, and a psychic power that can each add 6" to this. However 12" is usually enough. I rarely use those things.

 MrVulcanator wrote:

What happens when something leaves synapse?

Nothing, except they may no longer be fearless (some units are natively fearless). However at the start of your next turn, that unit will need to take an instinctive behaviour test. There are 3 types of instinctive behaviour, each with several possible results.

 MrVulcanator wrote:

Termagaunts or Hormagaunts?

Preferably neither. Tyranid troops are bad. Mucolid spores and deepstriking rippers are the best choices.
If you must run gaunts, then termagants. 20 of them armed with devourers and put in a drop pod can get some work done.

It isnt mob rule that is hurting orks. It's their ultra low ld in a game where everything has good lds and nearly all close combat oriented enemies are sort of fearless. old mob rule fixed this problem by raising the ld or making them fearless. The new rule just doesn't cut it. As a result of this most ork players tend to avoid or try to mitigate ld issues.

The question orks or Tyranids is best answered by the question if you like to build and paint vehicles. If you enjoy scratch building vehicles you should play orks if you enjoy painting monsters you should play Tyranids.
.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Currently both armies are good vs shooty armies in close combat, but bad vs the new close combat units from the other armies. Tyranids are way better in close combat compared to orks. All ork close combat heroes strike at I 1 and have no Inc save. While Tyranids have things like lash whips.

Orks or Tyranids? Question is, how much in futility do you want to keep loosing?

I just got back into playing 40K last year. Sadly I don't play many games. Why? Loosing. I don't mind loosing, but it's loosing when you basically have no chance on winning.

At least in Chess, even though I suck at it, the game starts of being equal. Now if we are going to take say Tau/Eldar/Space Marines/Necrons on one side of the Chess Board, then the Tyranids will not have any Bishops in the army, and Orcs will not have any Bishops or Horses in the army and use pawns to replace what they can't use.

I guess there is a chance to still win with the right person, but for being a person who doesn't know the game very well, being at a disadvantage even before when pencil comes to paper to make a list is just not fun.

Hopefully 8th edition will fix this if and when it comes out about 6 months from now.

Na its not that bleak as long as your opponent doesn't go all crazy on their new toys you are mostly fine in casual games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To stay in your chess game metaphor just tell him you are not bringing knights and he will most likely do the same

 oldzoggy wrote:
Tyranids are way better in close combat compared to orks. All ork close combat heroes strike at I 1 and have no Inc save. While Tyranids have things like lash whips.

Nids don't have any invul saves on close combat units either. Outside of the Swarmlord I guess, who gets a 4++ that only works in CC. He is the nid equivalent to Ghazghkull, who gets a 2++ when he calls a Waaagh. So that kinda balances out.

All that lash whips do is add +3 to initiative. Would trade for power klaws. Plz?

Synapse isn't difficult. Take one synapse for 500pts +1 .
My friend has 5 synapse for 2 000 pts, and it's perfectly fine.
Just think about it before making your movements and it's ok.
It's not difficult to keep a good synapse in the whole army.

There are also some rarely used tricks that you can pull of by bringing units in and out of synapse. Such as going to ground out of synapse when they shoot at you just to move your synapse creature back into range in your movement phase so that they become fearless and are no longer pinned.

Orks can be competitive. Mob rule is still a bonus, we just grumble that it's not as good as it was. (Basically fearless over ten models.) units with characters and bosspoles should pass ld tests one way or another. more than any other race though, orks are fun.

Arson Fire wrote:

All that lash whips do is add +3 to initiative. Would trade for power klaws. Plz?

Sure but I would only trade them for the complete set.
I would gladly trade your I8 Ap2 S6 Life Drain for my I1 ap 2 S8 & S10 weapons.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

All that lash whips do is add +3 to initiative. Would trade for power klaws. Plz?

Sure but I would only trade them for the complete set.
I would gladly trade your I8 Ap2 S6 Life Drain for my I1 ap 2 S8 & S10 weapons.

Sure, but you only get that on warbosses. The best anyone else can do with it is s4 and ap3.

Yeah don't trade away our only ap2 holy guacamole

Don't worry half of their models have ap2 due to being mosnters. They have more than enough we will be getting some ap 2 back in trade of our ehm... lets give them big choppa's.

Since big choppas are the other 50% of our melee wargear we should get 50% of theirs in return haha

Do you want tail weapons? We're not really using those, and they would lend themselves to some entertaining conversions

Surprisingly, orks are not great conversationalists.

Let us take looted carnifexes. I want my warboss to ride one.

Na they can keep their carnifexes looted mawlocks make better rides, and looted pods would be great. Deepstriking MANZ or kanz is just too much fun. Or you any weapon that strikes at I and has at least a ap3 stat line would also be fine.

If you're gonna loot pods, you're better off taking the space marine ones.
Less than half the price (sometimes even free!), can be objective secured, and are a lot harder to get rid of. Plus they get to drop on turn 1.


Weapons that strike at I and have AP3 are all well and good. The problem comes when that's all you have. Then high strength AP2 weapons start looking pretty damn good.

These factions each have one, but lack the other.
Orks can't get power weapons that strike at I. Tyranids can't get weapons that strike at higher than base strength.

I might actually consider taking warriors if they could improve on strength 4. But nope, only MCs are allowed to hit hard, and even then most of them only have 3 WS3 S5/6 attacks. Less punch than a power klaw nob.
All the S4 AP3 attacks in the world aren't going to do you any good when the target is a dreadnought or a wraithknight.

Tricky question. I have both and enjoy playing both.

At the end of the day though, Orks are FUN. I've never not enjoyed playing them.

Do you want individuals? If so Orks.

Personally I prefer tyranids, it's my first army and atm the only one I have though I'm looking into starting a new one soon, as a tyranid player I can answer all the nid questions.

Tervigons can only spawn base termigaunts, 3d6 every turn unail you roll doubles, so it's possible to get 15 new gaunts every turn, though unlikely on average they'll spawn out by turn 2 but I've seen battle reports where they give a 50%+ increase to your unit count.

Synapse isn't bad as a good number of things you want in your army have synapse, zoanthropes, hive tyrants, and tervigons, synapse has a 12 inch range and you can get your warlord up to 18 inch, usually 2 groups of zoanthropes 1 tervigons and 1 tyrant is enough for your army.

When synapse is broken nothing happens til the start of your next turn, they usually lose fearless and depending on the unit depends on what happens, sometimes your unit canibalizes itself, sometimes your carnifex charges the closest unit and tries to murder it, sometimes the unit just goes to ground, but as soon as your synapse gets back in range they are back to normal.

As for gaunts both have their uses but for the most part they are cannon fodder so your bigger units can do the killing, that being said it's possible for both to kill things you wouldn't expect. It's a point sink but you can fit up a full squad of 30 termigaunts with devourers which means 90 attacks from 1 unit in shooting which averages about 7 space marine kills with SM saves, horms are great for early objective secure with fleet, and while they are squishy you can give them adrenal glands and toxin sacs to put out some hurt

Forgot to ask, what does 'Ere we go! do?

 MrVulcanator wrote:
Forgot to ask, what does 'Ere we go! do?

couple of things.

1: it lets you reroll one of the dice when determining charge range

2: During a Waaagh it lets you Run and Assault in the same turn.

Its the special rule that all that triggers most if not all ork only rules, orks have it grots do not have it nor do vehicles.

I play Orks myself, and ive never quite understood the complaints that Tyranid players have... their Fearless bubbke gimmick is great, and aside from Grav weapon spam, or D weapons (which are rare in my shop), their MCs are very resilient. Flying Hive Tyrants equal dead vehicles and flyers every single turn.

Now froma modeling perspective, I like the Orks more, but we are the ultimate Negative Effected faction in the game. Fear tests? Ruin your onky advantage. Bad initiative. Terrible leadership, mob rule wounds, no invul saves, open topped vehicles (so No Escape rule), any ignores cover, big mobs equal worse regrouing losses at below 25% to name a few.

That said, orks are marginally more fun to play, if youre already expecting to pick up handfulls of your own models anyway.

If you are interested in winning, keep in mind nids can ally with the stupidly over the top genestealer cults for first turn charge bullcrap.

Tyranids have a few powerful options (which basically all use the word "flyrant" in them) and a lot of overcosted gak that won't make its points back vs any "normal" power level units. Building fluffy lists means that winning games will be hard, and their formations are mostly lackluster.

Orks are at the mercy of RNG, have really bad stats basically all around on most of their units, will alternate between killing each other and running away, have trouble dealing with AV14 and 2+ saves without running up and punching them and in general are a melee army without enough support for melee.

Both armies offer a lot of customization, kitbash, and conversion potential, can be build as horde armies, and are pretty awesome in the fluff.

If you want the army that's easy to play, tyranids can be as simple as orks with a lot more power. If you want an army that's cheap, you can build most ork stuff with ork boyz minis, looted bits, and plasticard+greenstuff. The best orks can bring is worse than the best tyranids can bring, but orks have a lot of different ways to reach that best whereas tyranids have only a few.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
and a lot of overcosted gak that won't make its points back vs any "normal" power level units.

I agree with almost everything you say except for this. To play 40K you need to get out of the "make your points back". A 1 point unit can kill 1000 points and you still loose the game. A 1000 point unit can kill one point and you win the game. In this current version of 40K and even the last version, making your points back is the wrong way to go when playing 40K.

I guess it goes to show how humans have a hard time with change.