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Do summoned unit's gain the benefit from the formation from which they were summoned?

For example:

If a deamon from the incursion formation summons a unit of plague bearers do they gain a bonus from the incursion special rules?

No. They aren't apart of that detachment

This was a question that needs FAQ'ing badly but wasn't

Short hand
Either they are a part of the detatchment and gain all formation bonuses of their parent summoner

Or they are not and you have a unit which is now formationless. This creates problems because by RAW nowhere does battleforged specify it only checks during list construction

The truth is this is a black hole in the rules and there is no written rule that specifies what formation they count as.

I have never encountered a player who would suggest you lose battleforged (partially because people assume that it only applies during list construction which it doesn't specify anywhere) but also because it is clear that is not the RAI and would devestate many summon lists.

I have encountered players who argue that because there is no rule they are formationless and (these same players will usually argue battleforged only checks during list construction RAI) others myself included will argue that because of the battleforged problems they must form part of the summoners formation to make the RAW work appropriately but this in itself is an RAI solution.

So in conclusion there is no pure RAW answer to refer you to and GW need to learn to write rules

U02dah4 wrote:


I have never encountered a player who would suggest you lose battleforged (partially because people assume that it only applies during list construction which it doesn't specify anywhere) but also because it is clear that is not the RAI and would devestate many summon lists.

Well then right now I suggest you lose battleforged, at least in the situation where you have 1 hq, 6 troops, and summon a 7th.

I stand corrected found one

U02dah4 wrote:
I stand corrected found one

Not trying to be contrary XD

It's a legitimate consideration though; even if you work from 'formations can augment themselves in game', the limitation imposed by the formation component's maximum is fixed.

Assuming of course a newly summoned unit occupies part of the FoC and formations can alter themselves in game

I would argue that it would count as an army list entry that does not use FoC this would make the rules function in both formations and detatchments where as your interpretation would deny summoning to all formations clearly not RAI

U02dah4 wrote:
Assuming of course a newly summoned unit occupies part of the FoC and formations can alter themselves in game

I would argue that it would count as an army list entry that does not use FoC

Agreed, because the only alternative is that it becomes an unbound army the moment you summon something outside of the battle forged strictures.

BRB 117 wrote:
A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into Detachments

Though having RAW'd that, it occurs to me you could field a single Daemon HQ as a CAD and summon troops directly into it as the game goes on...

When you build a list you incorporate all of your units there.
This includes formations etc.

A summoned unit is not something that came in that formation to begin with.
Your unable to change a list once you have started, so it couldn't be added to that formation.

While you are adding new units to your army, they would not gain any formation benefits as they were not purchased as part of it to begin with.

 Jackal wrote:
When you build a list you incorporate all of your units there.
This includes formations etc.

A summoned unit is not something that came in that formation to begin with.
Your unable to change a list once you have started, so it couldn't be added to that formation.

While you are adding new units to your army, they would not gain any formation benefits as they were not purchased as part of it to begin with.

Feel free to point to the rules section where it says "your unable to change a list once it's started". This is an assumption stated as fact.

The detachments section while discussing battle forged on the other hand does write "all of your units must belong to a detachment" it doesn't specify this only checks at list building

It does specify in the same section you must tell your opponent what detachment your unit belongs to and therefore what command benefits it gets

So if... your assumption is wrong so would be your conclusion

The conjuration rules do not specify that it is part of not part if the summoned formation RAW

U02dah4 wrote:
Feel free to point to the rules section where it says "your unable to change a list once it's started". This is an assumption stated as fact.

As a permissive rules set the rules tell us what we can do, not what we can't. Can you point out where the rules say you can change your list once the game starts?

I would say no.

You could think of it like this: all units that are part of a formation get their extra special shiny rules handed out to them at the start of the game. If you are not there from the start then you are not part of that formation.
Summoned units therefor are not part of any formation of detachment. They are just an unit of whatever you just summoned.
Armies also do not become suddenly unbound if someone summons something, you should see the unit as an extended result of a spell and not something that came from some sort distant reserve pool.

I'm sorry, but what? Lol.

So you think you can change round your army list mid game?
Try that in game with someone and let me know how it goes.

Read the rule book, it's under picking your army along with the game setup.
Not during games.


All units must belong to a detachment.
Of course they do as that's in regards to building your list.
Not changing it mid game.
Show me in the summoning where it states these units immediately become part of your detachment.

The formation rules also don't state you can add to them after a game has started and you made your initial army list.
See, I can play that game too




Edit:

Page 117 - the force roster under choosing your armies.
Now if your going back to choose your army mid game, you've made a slight mistake.

 Jackal wrote:

So you think you can change round your army list mid game?
Try that in game with someone and let me know how it goes.

OT: That would actually make for a pretty interesting setup, start with a CAD on the table, and spend the points per-turn up to an agreed limit.

Saying that Summoning in a new unit causes you army to become Unbound is as ridiculous as saying you lose all Detachment/Formation benefits as soon as the minimum required units are no longer alive because a unit has been killed.
Sorry, but my Troops don't lose Obsec just because I lost my only required HQ.
That same logic applies for acquiring new units via Summoning. They don't get any bonuses because they were not originally part of the detachment, but the would not "unbind" the units that were originally part of it.

-

 malamis wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:


I have never encountered a player who would suggest you lose battleforged (partially because people assume that it only applies during list construction which it doesn't specify anywhere) but also because it is clear that is not the RAI and would devestate many summon lists.

Well then right now I suggest you lose battleforged, at least in the situation where you have 1 hq, 6 troops, and summon a 7th.

That argument would mean you lose formation bonuses when you lose a unit as you now don´t match the formation restrictions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is partly detailed within the Magnus FAQ where it states that the blue horrors split from the pink horrors don´t gain Obj SEc or any of the other incrusion bonuses if that was the original force they were in.

 rawne2510 wrote:

This is partly detailed within the Magnus FAQ where it states that the blue horrors split from the pink horrors don´t gain Obj SEc or any of the other incrusion bonuses if that was the original force they were in.

But the opposite occurs in the Nid FAQ that say that Gaunts spawned by Troop Tervigons do indeed gain ObSec if taken in a CAD.

Galef wrote:Saying that Summoning in a new unit causes you army to become Unbound is as ridiculous as saying you lose all Detachment/Formation benefits as soon as the minimum required units are no longer alive because a unit has been killed.
Sorry, but my Troops don't lose Obsec just because I lost my only required HQ.
That same logic applies for acquiring new units via Summoning. They don't get any bonuses because they were not originally part of the detachment, but the would not "unbind" the units that were originally part of it.

rawne2510 wrote:That argument would mean you lose formation bonuses when you lose a unit as you now don´t match the formation restrictions.

Exactly this. There is no difference between adding beyond what the Detachment can handle and reducing beyond the minimum that the Detachment requires.

Of course, that would make things like the Gladius Strike Force interesting when you lose a Tactical/Assault/Devastator Squad. Do you suddenly lose your free Transports since you lost one of your Demi-Companies and so lost your Battle Company and they are no longer free?

That would be an interesting way to "balance" those Detachments, wouldn't you say?

I would draw a parallel with a similar question from the Tyranids.

Q: If a Tervigon is taken as a Troops option (per The Scuttling
Swarm rule) and spawns Termagants, do these new models
have Objective Secured? Do they have Objective Secured if they
were spawned by a Tervigon which is an HQ choice?
A: Yes to both questions, as long as the Tervigon is taken
as part of a Detachment that confers the Objective
Secured Command Benefit (for example, the Combined
Arms Detachment).

The summoned unit gains the formation benefit

Fragile wrote:
I would draw a parallel with a similar question from the Tyranids.

Q: If a Tervigon is taken as a Troops option (per The Scuttling
Swarm rule) and spawns Termagants, do these new models
have Objective Secured? Do they have Objective Secured if they
were spawned by a Tervigon which is an HQ choice?
A: Yes to both questions, as long as the Tervigon is taken
as part of a Detachment that confers the Objective
Secured Command Benefit (for example, the Combined
Arms Detachment).

The summoned unit gains the formation benefit

Except we have the same question for Splitting from Pink Horrors and the answer is no

Q: Do the units that are created count as Objective Secured if the Pink Horrors that spawned them had that rule? Are they a part of the Detachment that spawns them and therefore subject to all the rules of the Detachment?
A: No to both questions.

Fragile wrote:
I would draw a parallel with a similar question from the Tyranids.

Q: If a Tervigon is taken as a Troops option (per The Scuttling
Swarm rule) and spawns Termagants, do these new models
have Objective Secured? Do they have Objective Secured if they
were spawned by a Tervigon which is an HQ choice?
A: Yes to both questions, as long as the Tervigon is taken
as part of a Detachment that confers the Objective
Secured Command Benefit (for example, the Combined
Arms Detachment).

The summoned unit gains the formation benefit

This has already been pointed out, along with the Wrath of Magnus FAQ that say the opposite about Split Horrors, in that they do NOT receive ObSec or any Incursion bonuses.

-

 CrownAxe wrote:

Except we have the same question for Splitting from Pink Horrors and the answer is no

Q: Do the units that are created count as Objective Secured if the Pink Horrors that spawned them had that rule? Are they a part of the Detachment that spawns them and therefore subject to all the rules of the Detachment?
A: No to both questions.

But splitting is not summoning. All this proves is there are different rules for models entering the game outside a list.

I believe command benefits of the detachment should apply to summoned units. It clearly needs a FAQ.

Interesting I missed the pink horror ruling although split isn't conjured if I remember the wording correctly it certainly creates an interesting parallel though and the tervigon ruling would contradict the pink horror one and refers to summoning

So what we have is two similar yet contrasting rulings pertaining to the same thing with no explanation for what makes them different

So I return to my very first conclusion that there is no clear RAW answer and GW need to learn to write rules

In the absence of clear wording, we can only go with what we have permission to do.
We bought units ABC and gained some bonuses
Now unit D is made. We have no permission to give it those bonuses, nor do we have any indication that unit D's existence alters the permission we have for units ABC to have said bonuses.

Ergo, the only logical outcome is that Summoned, Spawned* or Split** units exist with no affect or interaction with any of the detachments from there army.



*we have been given specific permission in this case to give ObSec
**we have been given specific denial of persmission in this case to give any detachment bonuses.

-

To make matters worse, summoned units in some armies would easily mix and match with the troops which were already part of their list, CAD, formation, whatever, and some summoned units aren't.

Assume a full, single CAD, providing Obj.Sec. And a Daemon Prince of Nurgle summoning a seventh unit of Plague Bearers for example. Seamless synergy here, where the summoned troops are just like the troops already part of the list. However, all Troop Slots are occupied. One might try to rationalize, that such a summoned Plague Bearer unit could replace a CAD Plague Bearer unit lost earlier that battle. Let's give them all Obj.Sec, those Troop choices.
Now assume the same CAD, filled with Astra Militarum platoons and veteran squads, and some 'lost' Primaris Psyker that summons a unit of Plague Bearers. Not so much synergy now. Narratively, half those guardsmen present would probably drop dead from some disease or another, and those summoned daemons are probably brought in against their will. Truely game-wise, these summoned unit is not even in the same Codex as the army it is summoned to.

Of course, I now mentioned 'full' CADs on purpose. How could these summoned units be part of the CAD if all slots were already filled? How cold they then gain the special rules from the CAD (or formations for that matter)?

The closest comparison that was FAQed is a Tervigon spawning new units of termagants. According to that FAQ The gants spawned count as troops (regardless of whether the Tervigon was taken as a HQ or a troop itself) and are part of the detachment that spawned them (gaining ObSec if in a CAD).

If you apply that to a psychic power, the models summoned would fill their normal FoC role and count as part of the detachment that spawned them.

Same would apply to Scarabs spawned by Spyders.

The issue is the slot thy occupy. I am not 100% sure on the pink horrors thing. Do they split into blue horrors? Are blue horrors troops? If no that would explain the difference.

 Lance845 wrote:
The closest comparison that was FAQed is a Tervigon spawning new units of termagants. According to that FAQ The gants spawned count as troops (regardless of whether the Tervigon was taken as a HQ or a troop itself) and are part of the detachment that spawned them (gaining ObSec if in a CAD).

If you apply that to a psychic power, the models summoned would fill their normal FoC role and count as part of the detachment that spawned them.

Same would apply to Scarabs spawned by Spyders.

The issue is the slot thy occupy. I am not 100% sure on the pink horrors thing. Do they split into blue horrors? Are blue horrors troops? If no that would explain the difference.

Blue horrors are also troops. The FAQ on Split saying new horrors don't get detachment bonuses is in completely contradiction to the tervigon FAQ because they both are functionally the same.

Well then the only other difference is that one unit becomes another instead of one unit generating another.

Pink horrors model is removed and blue horrors are generated to replace it.

The Tervigon doesn't go anywhere. It just spawns a new unit.

Same for summoning.

 Lance845 wrote:
Well then the only other difference is that one unit becomes another instead of one unit generating another.

Pink horrors model is removed and blue horrors are generated to replace it.

The Tervigon doesn't go anywhere. It just spawns a new unit.

Same for summoning.

While it would make sense to just say that any new units generated throughout the game count as in whichever detachment as the unit that bought them in, we haven't been given that direction in writing.
RAW, only units included during list building must belong, or even can belong to a detachment.

It is only because of the Tervigon FAQ that the waters are muddy here.
If both that FAQ and the Horror FAQ were the same, there would be no debate either way. But since there is contradiction, we cannot use either as precedent.
We have to go by what the BRB says instead, which only says that units purchased during list building count as part of a detachment to receive bonuses.

-

 Balancekeeper89 wrote:
Do summoned unit's gain the benefit from the formation from which they were summoned?

For example:

If a deamon from the incursion formation summons a unit of plague bearers do they gain a bonus from the incursion special rules?

The summoned units do not gain the advantages of the formation summoning them unless specifically stated otherwise. They are a new unit, not a part of any part of your list building/formation structure, CAD or so forth. They do not have ob sec (barring specifically being told they do) or any other neato rules, the price of a free unit.

They also don't force you unbound, you are bound or unbound by the list you bring to the table. THE END. If you lose your HQ in a CAD to lucky fire, you aren't suddenly unbound because "Oh, I don't have my 1 hq, looks like all my troops are not obsec anymore" You are still bound by the list you brought, you spent warp charges making free units outside of your list, who get no advantages from your list (again, unless specifically stated otherwise)