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Audustum wrote: I am actually thinking the Psilencer is a better choice for Terminators now. It's basically a super Storm Bolter and it's really cheap point wise.
I think the Psilencer is going to be better across the board. Just because of the extra damage per wound and volume of shots. Likely going to make my Purgation squad a Psilencer squad instead of Psycannons.
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.
Against Orks your idea has merit though.
I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.
You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.
How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.
You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.
It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.
*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.
So your talking about turn 2-3 charges at the earliest, because you can't DS any nearby until after you dealt with the bubble-wrap with your expensive Dreaknights, so that you can drop your expensive paladin squads down, hoping for that 9" charge., that also considering your dreadknight even gets in incinerator range, since he can't DS in range, and only has an 8" move now. I get 197 for 3x paladins with great hammers, because your not killing tanks in melee with anything else. Mathwise. 6x attacks at 4+, 3x attacks at 3+ should net you ~5 hits, with means ~3 wounds = 9 damage, ignoring lucky 6+ saves, Thats on average, you won't kill any tanks with that, but you will cripple them, if you roll less, it could be much worse. This doesn't seem remotely reliable. Plus all the points you spend to set up the charge. You could be buying Dreadnoughts with twinlascannon+ML, or Razorbacks with Twinlascannons, or Stormravens with Twin Lascannon (Trend?) +Multimelta,and stormstrike missiles.
FYI, anything that can easily destroy a stormraven, should do the same to paladins.
Late to this, but isn't it obvious ? Twin Las Razors fill a number of holes in a pure GK list. They give anti-tank. They start on the table allowing you to put your other stuff in reserve. They're fast in a mostly slow moving army. They're durable and need multi-damage shots to put down - the same stuff you don't want shot at your Paladins.
Talking of Paladins - they're a terrible idea for anti-tank. Assault from deep strike isn't reliable, even with a re-roll (on one squad only)
I had been contemplating this as well. Psilencer equipped purgation squads in razorbacks seem like a decent option for table deployed units. Also lets not forget how strong dual autocannon dreads look.
This provides another solid fire base. Might be an even better option. For 136 points your getting 8 str 7 ap -1 2 damage shots.
Razorback provides transport but with a lascannon your looking at 2 str 9 ap -3 d6 damage shots.
Thinking the volume from a dread might outweigh the transport capanilites and lascannon damage.
I've been high on Psilencer since I first read the update.
That being said. I want to bring up HQs again.
Librarian w/ Storm Shield? Voldus? Neither and taking a Brotherhood Champion?
Librarians for the points seem like an excellent choice. The rerolls from Draigo and Voldus seem great as well just not sure how they stack up point for point.
Rihgu wrote: How do we get the weight of fire to deal with hordes? Or even just high numbers of infantry?
One of my usual opponents plays Necrons and I haven't been able to beat him. We've been playing lower point games so he's only been taking 10 man squads but between the rend on gauss and the tesla from Immortals I am being overwhelmed in shooting.
Smite's 1 mortal wound does practically nothing (especially considering the squad comes back) and My 5 man Paladin squad with 2 psycannons did about 3 wounds between shooting and assault, before dying because they fell back and rapid fired/tesla'd with the nearby squads.
The latest list I tried was
Grand Master with psycannon
Apothecary
Castellan Crowe
5 Paladins with 2 psycannons & mix of melee weapons
5 Purifiers with 2 psycannons
The Purifiers died to Deathmarks far before they could get in range to smite anything, the Grandmaster was tarpitted by Wraith until a Night Scythe dumped 5 warscythe Lychguard into the combat, killing my GM and my Apothecary (but luckily Crowe showed up at roughly that exact moment and over 2 turns rolled 2 6 damage smites, killing both units)
And then Crowe, who was my last model at this point, promptly died to rapid fire/tesla.
Don't even get me started on if he brings a Monolith, haha.
Drop the psycannons and bring Psilencers. More shots on target. Also as has been stated you have a lot of elite units which can be really hard to manage.
Drop Crowe and the apothecary if your only running a single Paladins squad. Add in either strikes or purgation squad which I personally am a fan of. A squad with 4 psilencers is only 113 points and has a lot of dice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind I found the info on the doomglaive. Except no points which is annoying.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind again found that too...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/25 14:27:57
Youn wrote: Well, just won this weekends FLGS tournament. Was pretty easy to pick up objectives and still put out enough firepower with the following list:
Yes, I am of the opinion all models that only have 1 power should take gate. This is because at any point in the game you might want to teleport the unit out of combat across the board to an unsecured objective. Yes, I understand it's only one unit per turn. All of them should normally be casting smite.
FYI, Dreads only know Smite (cannot have Gate) and Crowe only knows 1 Sanctic power.
It's close to being as effective with shooting because the heavy psycannon is 6 shots. While it has shorter range of also can carry an incinerator which is great for overwatch. Not to mention it can actually fight effectively I combat with it's D6 damage and no hit penalty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What thoughts do you guys have on adding in Scions (as a fluffy inquisitorial force). The Taurox and Taurox Prime seem like good vehicles this edition. Loading up some scions with Plasma or jist taking them bare bones to backfield babysit seems like a fluffy snd effective option to fill out a cheap battalion for the extra command points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 11:24:45
Youn wrote: I was mostly trying something when I put those normal dreadnoughts into play. They used smite and each were dropped from the stormraven on turn 2. The melta shots were used in 2 of the games to finish off land raiders. As you basically drop those dreadnought with the understanding they are going to get focused down. Which for me was fine as I would rather someone focus down a generic dreadnought then a squad of purifiers.
I think Dreads are an excellent addition to GK forces in this edition. I plan on taking two Doomglaive variants in my force. I like the idea of a small elite force even if its not the MOST competitive. I think a knight would be a great addition to GKs for a beefy shooting platform.
Been toying with that idea as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 14:52:40
Thanks, does the FW (chapter) allow grey knights or is it just the vehicles listed under Grey Knights that you can take?
I don't think so. The regular index does not allow it, as in you can't use "grey knights" as your chapter to have bikes or predators, so it should works the same for FW.
This is correct. The only units GK are allowed to utilize are those marked with GK or those the index specifically states can be taken as <Grey Knights>. They can still be used but they don't get the Grey Knights label.
pinecone77 wrote: I've been considering a GK force, with Sisters. Start the SOB on the field, DS the Knights. Workable? Seems plenty fluffy, but can it win?
GK with Tempestus Scions would be fluffier especially if you added in an inquistor and played them as an "inquisition force".
I've been building lists based in this because of the cheapness of the Scions and the ability of the Taurox Primes compared to their points.
Yea I've been toying with the melta Scions idea for a while. Seems like a quick cheap way to get some quick deploying damage for dealing with heavies.
I plan on running 2 Doomglaives they really seem on paper like they are going to be pretty effective because they can cover multiple roles it seems. And only 2 less shots than a Rifleman Dread but with close combat effectiveness and the ability to get an incinerator is huge.
What is everyone's thoughts on MSU Paladins. No heavy weapons. Hammer paragons. By running 3 man units you can create a little target saturation and gets you more hammer paragons.
Does anyone run swords on their paladins? I think the swords look great but it seems falchions with the +1 attack wins out over the -3 AP is the difference that great that running swords would be insane or is falchions more about min/max.
I'm debating magnetizing my psilencers. Storm bolsters on a per point level seem like the better option on terminator's. Based on the math on page 9.
I really am a fan of them though. Maybe just running a single for the extra shots instead of dual.
Paladins are always better for 9 points your getting a Paragon who hits on 2+, an extra wound, and an extra attack as well as +1 leadership.
It also allows you to take 2 heavy weapons per unit if you want that. Still up in the air on that one. Storm Bolters and Psilencers seem to be the consensus best options with Storm Bolters in rapid fire range being best per point unless you have the points to spare.
Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.
Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.
I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.
Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.
Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.
I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.
If you're running Paladins to be cheap, I'd say don't take 5 of them. If you're running them in 5's, then definitely grab the Psilencers. The volume of shots, D3 damage and minimal cost increase makes them a better buy than the Storm Bolter.
I was toying with the idea of running 3 man units but not sure how well it works as has been brought up with buffs and sustainability. I'm running a paladin heavy force since I love the models trying to cover whatever bases I can.
I think the biggest struggle for pure gk is getting anti armor unless stormravens are the absolute solution to that.
Doomglaives/Riflemen dreads seem like another logical option. I am building 15 paladins and have 2 doomglaives to build because of the visuals of the army. Gotta figure out how to fit anti armor in here.
Audustum wrote: I dunno how much the Dreads cost, but 5 units of 3 Pallies with 1 hammer each is just a bit shy of 1k, right? Add in Dreads and HQ's and I'd say you should look at suicide Scion squads (which you are) maybe a single Stormraven or Tarantula Sentry Guns, which get you an immobile, but Hardy unit with a lascannon for only like 60 points.
EDIT: Whoops, right, pure GK is what we're talking about. Adding in MORE Dreads or the Stormraven are the only real good option I've seen. Some people say you can take a veritable horde of Strikes and some Brother-Captains to just mortal wound spam armor to death though.
Your sitting at 1080 with Voldus and 5 3 man terminator squads w/ hammer and falchions. At that point though your looking at another entire detachment to get Dreads in. Which means another HQ.
Just threw this together for a Paladin heavy list at 2k.
Nairul wrote: See my math on pg. 9 regarding Psilencer vs. Psycannon
I'm on the Psilencer train. I only added the cannons for dealing with higher toughness like 6 and 7. It is probably not worth it though because now that you say that didn't you show that up to toughness 7 the psilencer is still more effective?
Nairul wrote: See my math on pg. 9 regarding Psilencer vs. Psycannon
I'm on the Psilencer train. I only added the cannons for dealing with higher toughness like 6 and 7. It is probably not worth it though because now that you say that didn't you show that up to toughness 7 the psilencer is still more effective?
Yep. Here's the breakdown on Psilencer vs. Psycannon in terms of damage output.
Against T3: Psilencer wins
Against T4: Psilencer wins
Against T5: Tie
Against T6: Tie
Against T7: Psilencer wins
Against T8: Psycannon wins
Then realize the Psycannon is the more expensive wargear... and the Psilencer becomes a no-brainer. I've been saying it for 10 pages now! This gun is the hidden gem of our codex. In my experience, at first glance my opponents seem to care less about this petty Strength 4 gun.
But then turn 1 you alpha strike everything near one flank. My competitive list contains 60 Psilencer shots in total, re-rolling misses thanks to Draigo. Watch the fear in their eyes as their big units get slowly chipped away by D3 damage rolls, smites, and good ol' Storm Bolter rapid fire.
Yea. I'm nervous the new codex is going to change something and they won't be as good anymore.
Oh well guess of it does I'll just tear em apart and make the needed changes. Going to magnetize the psilencer arm anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/12 23:07:09
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The two abilities don't interact, you ether use your own leadership (with the +1) or the inquisitor's one.
The purge soul situation is cool, but is absolutely overkill. Just draigo and the Paladins would have massacred the company anyway.
Why are you guys under the impression that you need a transport for the dread? Between advancing turn one and GoI I have no problems moving them across the board. There's no reason ever to take the NDK over a dread or a paladin squad.
I agree with this sentiment. The stormraven is great for one dread. Also I think NDKs are way overcosted for what they bring. Your paying an extra 65 points for what amounts to 4 wounds. Doomglaives have a better BS/WS that doesn't deteriorate as he loses wounds. NDK has +1 save, Doomglaive has +1 toughness. Firepower is equal. But the Doomglaive ends up being more consistent in combat do to stat loss on the NDK. Based on the stats anyway.
1 Doomglaive in a stormraven one GoI to the deep striking paladins.
If you want to run a NDK go for it just saying dreads are proving to be much more point effective at this point.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/13 15:21:03
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The two abilities don't interact, you ether use your own leadership (with the +1) or the inquisitor's one.
The purge soul situation is cool, but is absolutely overkill. Just draigo and the Paladins would have massacred the company anyway.
Why are you guys under the impression that you need a transport for the dread? Between advancing turn one and GoI I have no problems moving them across the board. There's no reason ever to take the NDK over a dread or a paladin squad.
I agree with this sentiment. The stormraven is great for one dread. Also I think NDKs are way overcosted for what they bring. Your paying an extra 65 points for what amounts to 4 wounds. Doomglaives have a better BS/WS that doesn't deteriorate as he loses wounds. NDK has +1 save, Doomglaive has +1 toughness. Firepower is equal. But the Doomglaive ends up being more consistent in combat do to stat loss on the NDK. Based on the stats anyway.
1 Doomglaive in a stormraven one GoI to the deep striking paladins.
If you want to run a NDK go for it just saying dreads are proving to be much more point effective at this point.
You're also paying more for more natural mobility. That's always going to be worth the price
1) I consider the most cost-efficient loadout of the NDK to be Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon. So that's 45 extra points.
2) How could you say firepower is equal? It's not.
3) +1 save will always be useful, whereas +1 toughness may not matter.
You are correct I was assuming both were bringing incinerators.
That being said while the NDK is tougher the Doomglaive has proven to be able to kill just as efficiently but for less points. If a 168 point model can kill as many models as a 200+ point model in less turns why wouldn't you save the points? Sure the NDK might be around and extra turn but the effectiveness of it drops once it drops half its wounds means your now hitting on 5s if you move. That is horrible in my opinion. Its already hitting on 4s if it moves and fires. The fact that the Doomglaive can move and hit on 3s is hugely beneficial. Plus it hits on 2s in combat which turns into more kills in combat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/13 18:41:51
Gest wrote: So for all the people who dislike/don't use/don't allow FW Models this means that the NDK is still better than the (non Doomglaive) DN, right?
Depends. Dual Autocannon ven dreads are still better at range and only 156 points. If your looking for close combat then the NDK is probably better.
