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Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Greetings fellow warriors of Titan. I will be editing this post every so often to provide a quick overview of the state of Grey Knights as for now...
CURRENT STATUS - POST CA2018 Weakest Codex. We no longer have the best looking armor, that really sucks. GW doesn't know how to balance crap. Updating unit viability soonish. Probably 180ish point drop no matter the list you were using
SPECIAL RULES TO REMEMBER
Rites of Baby Smite: 1 MW at 12 inches target must be model nearest to caster. Unless target has Daemon keyword then 3 MW.
GENERAL WARGEAR RECOMMENDATION - Look at the Mathhammer to get a MUCH more detailed breakdown vs. X Toughness or DMG per point
-Psilencers are almost always best choice
-Falchions are almost always best choice
-Never take Incinerators, yes it hurts to say that I have 6 Interceptors modeled with Incinerators.
-When in doubt never worry about not taking a ranged weapon upgrade, stormbolters are nice.
This is the edition of the horde gunline. You honestly want an odd number of wounds on a model due to plasma overcharge spam or the rarer autocannon. This means Terminators are destroyed very efficiently by both and as a result should not be taken, take Paladins instead because they take 2 shots to kill. Or just stick to Power Armor Grey Knights (PAGK) because while they do die easier, they are incredibly more point efficient than a terminator in I believe most every respect; especially while in cover or assault.
Grandmaster Dreadknights (GMDK) are the best unit in the codex, so you always have an reason to take an HQ.
You will rarely have more than 8 CP, think how you are going to use them.
CA 2018 CHANGES
New points per model - no wargear (Credit: Danarc)
To clarify, the Smite Psychic power does have variation from unit to unit representing their unique abilities. Like the purifiers, their smite is only 3" but does D6 mortal wounds instead of 1. BC Stern does a zone of banishment smite.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
Currently it looks like there are two builds that jump out at face value.
involves using a set of Brother Captains in combination with Purifiers to push forward into melee combat where the Purifiers will be able to start using their D6 Smite to clear out the elite units your opponent has. The problem with this however is that Purifiers are far too expensive again to do this on a manageable level. They are no more survivable than before, in fact in many cases they are more vulnerable due to the AP system change meaning you won't get a full armor save.
Further the Rhino that you most certainly will be buying for them is much more expensive. Which would not be a problem if the models it was moving were cheap, this is due to a lack of saturation of targets so each rhino will be focused down where a random amount of your expensive models will simply die.
The Purifiers are much less choppy, they lost an attack. Shame.
But if you wished to push forward with this strategy, the plan would be having your Brother Captains in reserve and once your Purifiers are in position, deepstrike so that the Locus ability becomes active for them. This would minimize the opportunity for the characters to die, and would let you be much more mobile, it would also provide a choice of where the hammer blow would come. You COULD take Land Raiders as a transport for the Purifers, but I wouldn't advise it due to the high point cost, however if you did you could have a Brother Captain and Purifier squad in the same transport though due to how the transports work differently now. I would not take special ranged weapons on anyone now, the Heavy rule means everyone hits on a 4+ and you have to give up your free force weapon. The weapons themselves are underwhelming in what they accomplish.
The goal here is to get in, do a ton of damage in the psychic phase and roll forward with your consolidations to engage the rest of the enemy army. I do not think it will be too effective simply because we would field to few models to put proper pressure in a single place AND we would be suffering from perils very frequently. 1/18, but we would be be likely manifesting at least 9 powers a turn, so one perils would effectively remove a squad once every two turns. Yes I think it is dumb Grey Knights are periling on their own psychic chart.
involves a much more reliable and imo stronger strategy of using our non-psychic buffs to create a extremely fast assault force.
Paladins, Apothecaries, Draigo, Dreadknights, and Interceptors. This sounds like our 6th and 7th edition manifestation doesn't it?
Due to the reserve rules of no more than 50% of the army may be is reserve we must have units to maintain a presence on the table. Those will be our Interceptors and trusty Dreadknights, whom continue to remain fairly imposing on the battlefield. Our TEQ will be deepstriking the same turn as everyone who shunts, as we get to chose our position perfectly we will be able to land an overwhelming strike on any part of the enemy army we wish. Our standard firepower has literally doubled for our stormbolters while allowing us to run and shoot every turn. The Dreadknight will continue to have our ranged weaponry quota due to the higher amount of shots each of the weapons have compared to the standard weapons.
The strategy is simple, pick the weak point and pile on until they crack. You can wait quite a while until you have to strike, with the Interceptors being able to claim objectives in the meanwhile. After the main enemy force breaks, we have access to GoI so at least one unit will be able to claim one objective per turn. Remember Termies are slower than normal so you want them to be the force that fences the enemy army in so they don't have to go chasing after high movement enemies.
I expect most GK armies to become like the second one. However depending on faction strategems we might see a slight shakeup .
Quickjager wrote: Purifiers can only manifest one power per turn. If they gate they cannot smite.
Even if they could gate, they would be out of range when they land.
Also only ONE unit can use gate PER turn.
EDIT: If you use Purifiers, Rhinos are required no ifs ands or buts.
Hold your jets, I was a little off but you seem more off.
You're right that Purifiers can only cast 1 spell per turn, but Gate can now be cast on other friendly units besides the Psyker's own unit. You could Gate Purifiers in with somebody else. They'd have to charge or advance that round and cast it the following turn, but it is something you could try.
The other issue is that your "each power once per turn" thing is only for Matched Play. That's fine, but I'm reasonably confident that the people reading this thread aren't exclusively Matched players.
So lets start number-crunching this, from what I can tell the Purifiers will still rely on a Rhino that is much improved so it isn't quite as bad. Purgation improves as Salvo no longer exists, but it has become actually CHEAPER to run this unit with max psycannons; at 152 points for a Sgt. and 4 Psycannons; at the same time with the loss of rending Psycannons have become much worse, with AP -1 so if anyone is in cover they get their normal armor save.
At a cursory glance it looks like Grey Knights have improved across the board with the core rule changes, even if our individual units have not become better. Voldus remains disappointing
Isn't -1 to armor save basically equivalent to rending in a lot of cases? For example, shooting at terms seems roughly the same now, right?
Mmmmm no -1 isn't because of how the cover system works now. With a -1 AP were effectively shooting an AP 0 weapon; it also means that if we focus a vehicle with psycannons like we would previous editions, the vehicle is highly likely to not take damage at all.
Also remember the 4+ save multiwound characters enemy factions used to have? We no longer Instant Death those and deny a armor save at the same time. Rather everything got more wounds, better saving throws, AND our ranged weapons were slightly nerfed. I'm not sure if it is worth putting the heavy weapon on our TEQs, maybe on a purgation squad in a Stormraven or something for a fast attack, but that ends up costing more than a Dreadknight so....
Remember, there are no more Fire Points from vehicles.
IMO the key to this army is in using its psychic powers well, we have two great damaging powers, excellent mobility with one Gate per turn to compliment shunting and deep striking, and Hammerhand is still great of course.
You're all overlooking the model I am SUPER EXCITED is finally usable! The Brotherhood Champion! He only has a lowly power sword, BUT his Sword Stance rule makes it so that he gets +1 to wound. That means that he wounds Land Raiders on 5s, he wounds Bikes on 4s, and he wounds toughness 4 models on 3s... But wait, there's more! Cast Hammerhand on him for an extra +1 to wound and he wounds Raiders on 4s, he wounds bikes on 3s, and other toughness 4 infantry on 2s!
Oh, you're being attacked and need to not die? Take up the shield stance, and suddenly he has a storm shield. Killed him, did you? He switches to sword stance and goes to work one last time before dying. Love this guy!
Hmm, missed that, Going to have to make that a Force weapon and an Inferno Pistol. So, 19 points available for force weapon. Darn, I have a nice model with two pistols. Really, she is there because, well. 1850 is an annoying point level for the new system.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/02 19:39:21
At first glance i fear we've been nerfed, and I may have to resort to running knights as the allied elite of my army on top of regular marines.
"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest, to children ardent for some desperate glory the old lie, Dulce et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori."
Grey Knights ~ 3500, Fully Painted =][= Space Wolves ~ 4000, Fully Painted =][= Prosperine Exiles ~ WIP =][= Altian Wraiths ~ WIP
Youn wrote: Hmm, missed that, Going to have to make that a Force weapon and an Inferno Pistol. So, 19 points available for force weapon. Darn, I have a nice model with two pistols. Really, she is there because, well. 1850 is an annoying point level for the new system.
No worries. I'm now in the same boat with my power armored Inquisitor model.
Audustum wrote: I am actually thinking the Psilencer is a better choice for Terminators now. It's basically a super Storm Bolter and it's really cheap point wise.
I think the Psilencer is going to be better across the board. Just because of the extra damage per wound and volume of shots. Likely going to make my Purgation squad a Psilencer squad instead of Psycannons.