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Having looked at the rules for both armies, I have to say that it looks to me as if orks are still way below the 'power level' of the most popular army.

I'd say the last time orks were actually able to fight marines on a 'level playing field' was when our fourth edition codex was still new. Since then, marines have improved considerably while orks have if anything become weaker. Overall, I'd place the current balance at needing roughly a 40% advantage in points (e.g. 2,100 points of orks vs. 1,500 points of marines) to become balanced. So either marines should have been boosted in cost by about 40% after overall adjustments for the changes or orks should have become about 30% cheaper.

Overall changes that have helped orks:

Chargers striking first is a huge benefit for our assault units. Probably saves us at least a couple of wounds whenever we get the charge. I'd say that is worth a good 10-20% in overall effectiveness on optimal units.
Re-rolling failed charges is slightly better than re-rolling the worst dice, maybe worth another 3% or so?
Hidden unit leaders is a mixed bag, but I think slightly in our favour since we usually have more points in the unit leader. Call that 1-2% more?
Most small arms have no AP. A save of 6+ means about 18% fewer casualties. If half of our wounds are coming from such weapons, that's probably worth 5% added value (my logic for this is that a unit with twice the durability and twice the killing power is worth twice as much, a unit with one those qualities is worth <square root of two> times as much, so you take the square root of durability to see overall value).
Command points. We have slightly cheaper units than most, which means filling in more slots and claiming more CP. I estimate about 20% more, with an expected value of maybe 2% added to the unit.

Changes which have done little either way:

Command points are more available to armies with more units and we can take a lot of cheap units, but the stratagems seem less useful and the best detachments require a lot of troops and HQs and ours kind of suck.
New morale rules might seem good, but the mob rule only really offsets the penalties for being in large units to start with. Simply having fewer than five models is the best insurance against morale losses and not many of our units can do that. Relative to marines, who are basically still immune to morale, I don't think we can consider this an advantage.
No bonus attack for pistols or charging. Obviously this cuts down the number of attacks orks can make, but it affects most enemies more because they lack the large number of base attacks. I'm going to say it's overall neither good nor bad because it slows down combat which means enemy units have more opportunities to fall back or shoot with pistols.

Changes that have hurt orks:

Penalties to hit are now fairly common, mostly replacing snap shots. This has left us in basically the same position when shooting at flyers and firing heavy weapons on the move while all other armies are two or three times better. Even worse, things which didn't give a penalty to hit before now do so, like smoke launchers, tau stealth systems and so on. This is horrific for many of our shooting units, probably worth a 10-20% drop in their value.
Cover. This is huge. First you need to be entirely within or touching terrain to benefit, so it''s harder for large units to use. You can no longer claim cover from other units. Then you only get +1 to your save, which is typically going to result in a 5+ save for orks which is worse than the 4+ we got from most cover before. Finally heavy weapons can now punch through cover, so we only get 6+ against heavy bolters when we used to get 4+. This gives most ork infantry maybe half to two-thirds the resistance to shooting they did in the previous edition. That means they should have a 33% drop in cost to compensate.

Changes that have helped marines:

Cover. Most marine units now get 2+ saves in cover against most ork weapons. That's twice the durability (and therefore worth about a 20-40% increase in value, depending on how easy it is for marines to claim cover). In order to keep up, orks would need to drop in price by about 20%.

Combining all those estimates, I get 1.15*1.03*1.02*1.05*1.02*0.9*0.77*0.8 or about 0.7. That means that just to account for the change from 7th to 8th edition orks should have dropped in price by 30% relative to marines. Adding my estimate of the existing difference in power, it seems like they should cost about half as much.

Needless to say this isn't what has happened. Shoota boys dropped cost by about 20% (10 boys with one big shoota and a nob) while tactical marines dropped by about 16% (five marines, sergeant, plasma gun).

Looking at the units in the index, the following strike me as still competitive:

Kommandos, because you can get a nob and two burnas at no cost, making a unit of five half what it was in 7th edition.
Lobbas and Kustom Mega Kannons. Lobbas are improved by hitting on BS now and KMKs benefit from the new 'blast' rules allowing them to get a couple of hits on big targets while their durability has not been nerfed enough to make them really vulnerable. These were starting from the position of being the only overpowered unit in the codex before, mind you and are less good than they were.
Gretchin and Runtherds. Filling out troops slots with really cheap units helps even more in 8th edition.
Deffkoptas. They were good before and they are good now. Extra wounds help deal with high-damage weapons, bombs are (confusingly) free and extremely deadly, spinning blades are OK, reliable outflanking helps a lot.
Blitza Bommas. 50% of your unit taking a mortal wound is very, very nasty. Weirdly effective against infantry.

I am a little sad at the ork armies but at the same time the vast majority of my army was made up of Deff Dreads, Kans. Which I'm pretty happy with. Dread can now group up into one Unit which means I can have a pretty sleek detachment without having to awkwardly fit a smaller one in. They also get more attacks, better rocket launchas and a nice 3+ save. But I do see a lot of problems with the Boyz, which is why I'm going to try and stick to 30-40 boyz only and focus my points on more heavier and survivable stuff.

I did just buy myself 3 Deff Kopters and a Bltza Bomma just before the rules were announced (I won them on ebay) so I was pretty happy when i saw them rule changes and saw how useful they can now be.

Its too early to call for me but there sure are a lot of nerfs that make me sad at first glance. It might be a net positive from our previous codex is sure doesn't seem close to the 4th edition one.

I think the old er we go was slightly better actually. roll 2 dice and reroll 1 meant you can keep 1. say you need a charge over 7 inches suddenly keeping the highest and rerolling the other one seems more useful. say you need an 8 and roll a 7 (average) keep the 4 and 50% chance to get the 4+ for the 8 inches vs 50% chance of 7 or under

This is within your power to check, you don't have to compare by feel. Just grab the below sheet, all of the math is already done, just enter your values and the targets values, and you can get the units efficiency vs that style of target. Compare that your opponents to figure out how your offense compares. I think you'll find orks have a very efficient offense, which is offset by being relatively fragile per model.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1M7tyL0_Ki19gpDOdTMRRTK74FQf4ZKATITPpFT4rWSU

I dunno, I haven't read the ork leaks yet, but deepstriking a full unit of shootas in your face with no scatter doesn't sound like something I want to be on receiving end of XD

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I think the old er we go was slightly better actually. roll 2 dice and reroll 1 meant you can keep 1. say you need a charge over 7 inches suddenly keeping the highest and rerolling the other one seems more useful. say you need an 8 and roll a 7 (average) keep the 4 and 50% chance to get the 4+ for the 8 inches vs 50% chance of 7 or under

I would agree.... tbh though, I've been really down on the main thread and a lot of people have yelled at me because a lot of factions got nerfed. I know Necrons are crying over their reanimation and weapons (even though I see getting a -1 AP and infinite reanimation if you keep the unit as OP) they don't see it as that. As a newer Ork player and literally playing a game today where I had no power to change the outcome, I'm kinda happy about 8th and can't wait to see it. But no... today was the worst... I had two dreadnoughts and 4 killa kans and I perfectly lined them up and got everything tactically correct and somehow he defeated them all with perfect pens on first turn and I was screwed... In the new edition, not only are pens and booms gone, we can actually hit first and use real tactics!

The casualties removal from the back is uge as is the buffs in units instead of models. Its just that I have 0 interest in building up a horde army again. My old 5th horde army is still not fully painted . The other changes in the other builds are too complex for me to guess if they are really improved or not. They look weak compared to other units such as SM dreads or imp knights but we will have to see.

I dunno, I also play CSM and White Scars. Orks seem to have gotten better, while my other 2 armies got worse. I play Trukks and Lootaz. Trukks are tougher, explosions will only kill d3 boyz max, and we gained str! Lootaz seem unchanged, with a 3 pt hike, but im fine with that. Sticking 4 units of 5 in a Battlewagon is gonna be a neat dirty trick.

A mechanized ork force might still be viable. But I do tend to agree with the op's assessment for the most part. It ain't easy being green.

Another thing to keep in mind is that points costs for marines went up a lot.

For example, I but together a BA list at 2000 points that is 30 marines (15 devastators and 15 tacs), 10 Death Co, Lemartes, 6 bikes, 2 dreads, and 3 razorbacks. Thats it. And i think it's a pretty good list.

BUT, 41 marines, 6 bikes, and 5 tanks isn't a lot compared to the mass of models orks can bring to the table.

Also, i think a lot of marines are going to be focusing on heavy weapons like Las Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma guns. Orks don't love those weapons, but they also don't lose that many guys to them. Also orks get their 6+ save now vs a lot of thing they didn't before.

You can have 90+ ork boys and 3 power claws for 615 points. I'm honestly not sure that a lot of marine armies could even handle that if they are set up to fight tanks etc. Not to mention the other 1400ish points of your army.

jcd386 wrote:
Another thing to keep in mind is that points costs for marines went up a lot.

For example, I but together a BA list at 2000 points that is 30 marines (15 devastators and 15 tacs), 10 Death Co, Lemartes, 6 bikes, 2 dreads, and 3 razorbacks. Thats it. And i think it's a pretty good list.

BUT, 41 marines, 6 bikes, and 5 tanks isn't a lot compared to the mass of models orks can bring to the table.

Also, i think a lot of marines are going to be focusing on heavy weapons like Las Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma guns. Orks don't love those weapons, but they also don't lose that many guys to them. Also orks get their 6+ save now vs a lot of thing they didn't before.

You can have 90+ ork boys and 3 power claws for 615 points. I'm honestly not sure that a lot of marine armies could even handle that if they are set up to fight tanks etc. Not to mention the other 1400ish points of your army.

Yeah but try and show up to an organized event with a limited amount of time per game with hundreds and hundreds of models, there's a limit to what is practical. Not to mention, if tournaments don't curb the absurd split fire, anyone with a tonne of models can bog the game down to a crawl if they want.

Agreed, but there are ways to play faster, and you can always mechanize with the remaining points. My point is that i think a lot of armies will have an issue with hordes, and ork boyz are very cheap, and better than the previous editions.

Also it's hard to slow play when you only have 15 or so units in your army as a space marine. Split fire is cool, but i don't think it will actually slow the game down too much. And if you ever think another player is slow playing, talk to a TO.

Warbuggies and Wartrakks are now viable to shoot at tanks/infantry and then tie up backline units in assault even in the same turn.

If you are able to select the right targets to assault, you can essentially float them away from being shoot at if you are a smart player

Their weapons fire twice the rounds they used to, increasing the upper limit and average damage output.

Essentially they have tripled maybe even quadrupled their effective output in the game.

Double the shooting, Added assault ability, Added ability to prevent units from shooting. Pretty awesome utility units now. Throw in Flanking for the win...

And conversely to counter what they do, units with pistols have a revenge mechanism if they survive into next round of combat, creating a nuance mechanic where it is better to assault units without pistols...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Another thing to keep in mind is that points costs for marines went up a lot.

For example, I but together a BA list at 2000 points that is 30 marines (15 devastators and 15 tacs), 10 Death Co, Lemartes, 6 bikes, 2 dreads, and 3 razorbacks. Thats it. And i think it's a pretty good list.

BUT, 41 marines, 6 bikes, and 5 tanks isn't a lot compared to the mass of models orks can bring to the table.

Also, i think a lot of marines are going to be focusing on heavy weapons like Las Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma guns. Orks don't love those weapons, but they also don't lose that many guys to them. Also orks get their 6+ save now vs a lot of thing they didn't before.

You can have 90+ ork boys and 3 power claws for 615 points. I'm honestly not sure that a lot of marine armies could even handle that if they are set up to fight tanks etc. Not to mention the other 1400ish points of your army.

Yeah but try and show up to an organized event with a limited amount of time per game with hundreds and hundreds of models, there's a limit to what is practical. Not to mention, if tournaments don't curb the absurd split fire, anyone with a tonne of models can bog the game down to a crawl if they want.

Given that templates are no longer a thing, and KFF mechanics require units to fit inside a bubble, movement trays are going to be the easy solution.

I've been waiting so long to use movement trays to speed up horde games.

Anyway I am liking newhammer 8th. The mechanics are more nuanced and varied despite many simplifcations in the game. The problem with 3-7th edition was stupid all or nothing mechnics that were band-aided in an unwieldly manner to add nuance but only ended up failing and turning into power creep or useless crap.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Having looked at the rules for both armies, I have to say that it looks to me as if orks are still way below the 'power level' of the most popular army.

I'd say the last time orks were actually able to fight marines on a 'level playing field' was when our fourth edition codex was still new. Since then, marines have improved considerably while orks have if anything become weaker. Overall, I'd place the current balance at needing roughly a 40% advantage in points (e.g. 2,100 points of orks vs. 1,500 points of marines) to become balanced. So either marines should have been boosted in cost by about 40% after overall adjustments for the changes or orks should have become about 30% cheaper.

Overall changes that have helped orks:

Chargers striking first is a huge benefit for our assault units. Probably saves us at least a couple of wounds whenever we get the charge. I'd say that is worth a good 10-20% in overall effectiveness on optimal units.
Re-rolling failed charges is slightly better than re-rolling the worst dice, maybe worth another 3% or so?
Hidden unit leaders is a mixed bag, but I think slightly in our favour since we usually have more points in the unit leader. Call that 1-2% more?
Most small arms have no AP. A save of 6+ means about 18% fewer casualties. If half of our wounds are coming from such weapons, that's probably worth 5% added value (my logic for this is that a unit with twice the durability and twice the killing power is worth twice as much, a unit with one those qualities is worth <square root of two> times as much, so you take the square root of durability to see overall value).
Command points. We have slightly cheaper units than most, which means filling in more slots and claiming more CP. I estimate about 20% more, with an expected value of maybe 2% added to the unit.

Changes which have done little either way:

Command points are more available to armies with more units and we can take a lot of cheap units, but the stratagems seem less useful and the best detachments require a lot of troops and HQs and ours kind of suck.
New morale rules might seem good, but the mob rule only really offsets the penalties for being in large units to start with. Simply having fewer than five models is the best insurance against morale losses and not many of our units can do that. Relative to marines, who are basically still immune to morale, I don't think we can consider this an advantage.
No bonus attack for pistols or charging. Obviously this cuts down the number of attacks orks can make, but it affects most enemies more because they lack the large number of base attacks. I'm going to say it's overall neither good nor bad because it slows down combat which means enemy units have more opportunities to fall back or shoot with pistols.

Changes that have hurt orks:

Penalties to hit are now fairly common, mostly replacing snap shots. This has left us in basically the same position when shooting at flyers and firing heavy weapons on the move while all other armies are two or three times better. Even worse, things which didn't give a penalty to hit before now do so, like smoke launchers, tau stealth systems and so on. This is horrific for many of our shooting units, probably worth a 10-20% drop in their value.
Cover. This is huge. First you need to be entirely within or touching terrain to benefit, so it''s harder for large units to use. You can no longer claim cover from other units. Then you only get +1 to your save, which is typically going to result in a 5+ save for orks which is worse than the 4+ we got from most cover before. Finally heavy weapons can now punch through cover, so we only get 6+ against heavy bolters when we used to get 4+. This gives most ork infantry maybe half to two-thirds the resistance to shooting they did in the previous edition. That means they should have a 33% drop in cost to compensate.

Changes that have helped marines:

Cover. Most marine units now get 2+ saves in cover against most ork weapons. That's twice the durability (and therefore worth about a 20-40% increase in value, depending on how easy it is for marines to claim cover). In order to keep up, orks would need to drop in price by about 20%.

Combining all those estimates, I get 1.15*1.03*1.02*1.05*1.02*0.9*0.77*0.8 or about 0.7. That means that just to account for the change from 7th to 8th edition orks should have dropped in price by 30% relative to marines. Adding my estimate of the existing difference in power, it seems like they should cost about half as much.

Needless to say this isn't what has happened. Shoota boys dropped cost by about 20% (10 boys with one big shoota and a nob) while tactical marines dropped by about 16% (five marines, sergeant, plasma gun).

Looking at the units in the index, the following strike me as still competitive:

Kommandos, because you can get a nob and two burnas at no cost, making a unit of five half what it was in 7th edition.
Lobbas and Kustom Mega Kannons. Lobbas are improved by hitting on BS now and KMKs benefit from the new 'blast' rules allowing them to get a couple of hits on big targets while their durability has not been nerfed enough to make them really vulnerable. These were starting from the position of being the only overpowered unit in the codex before, mind you and are less good than they were.
Gretchin and Runtherds. Filling out troops slots with really cheap units helps even more in 8th edition.
Deffkoptas. They were good before and they are good now. Extra wounds help deal with high-damage weapons, bombs are (confusingly) free and extremely deadly, spinning blades are OK, reliable outflanking helps a lot.
Blitza Bommas. 50% of your unit taking a mortal wound is very, very nasty. Weirdly effective against infantry.

A few things. The switch to the ap system was a massive buff to meganobs. Not only are they 3 wound and get to strike first with claws, but most importantly their armor is much much better. Before ap2 made them worthless, now ap2 = ap-3 which means you still get a 5+. The painboy looks like a sidegrade to start with him preventing wounds on a 6+, but he does it for all units near him. More importantly he heals multiwound models very easily This gives way more durability to bikers and nobs. Kustom force field also got a good boost. Beyond that the increased power of morale also gives some boost to the orks. Their charges are gonna hit hard and do a ton of damage and then more in the morale phase, and they have ample ways to mitigate their own morale problems. The transport change also helps them.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I dunno, I also play CSM and White Scars. Orks seem to have gotten better, while my other 2 armies got worse. I play Trukks and Lootaz. Trukks are tougher, explosions will only kill d3 boyz max, and we gained str! Lootaz seem unchanged, with a 3 pt hike, but im fine with that. Sticking 4 units of 5 in a Battlewagon is gonna be a neat dirty trick.

Lootas are even better due to shifts in core mechanics of the game. They have the utility of being able to sink wounds on all armour in the game.

Whereas before there was no utility whatsoever vs AV14.

That's huge

I just now realized, my age old tactic of Gone to Ground Lootaz on an Aegis is kinda done for. 6+save, improved to 5+, or 4+ GTG isnt worth the extra 75 pts...

And forget about my Ork Tidewall Shieldline, They restricted that one to Tau only. Shame, I had one converted up nicely.

Points saved on the ADL and the 'Ard Boyz might pay for the Trukk hike.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I just now realized, my age old tactic of Gone to Ground Lootaz on an Aegis is kinda done for. 6+save, improved to 5+, or 4+ GTG isnt worth the extra 75 pts...

.

Yeah cover mainly benefits armoured guys now.... Its like dnd that first +1 AC doesn't do a thing but its a huge boon when you are already stacking on armour.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I just now realized, my age old tactic of Gone to Ground Lootaz on an Aegis is kinda done for. 6+save, improved to 5+, or 4+ GTG isnt worth the extra 75 pts...

.

Yeah cover mainly benefits armoured guys now.... Its like dnd that first +1 AC doesn't do a thing but its a huge boon when you are already stacking on armour.

Yeah that's one aspect that has me baffled, and not because it isn't in all honesty a more accurate representation of it should work, but it creates odd incentives like elite troops who are supposed to be armoured enough to stalk the open field and engage the enemy directly still finding more of an incentive to sit in cover and only provide fire support.



Just because I love orks, doesn't mean I will ever be happy for 6+ anything.

We won't actually know which armies are good/bad/ugly fpr at least a month after everything gets officially released and even then it won't fully settle for 2-3 months after that.

Sit back and enjoy the ride, the meta shakeout is the best part of the edition.

Yeah meta settling takes a while.

Whenever "the internet" reaches a conclusion on stuff before it is tested remember this bit of gold.

"WK aren't survivable enough, they need eternal warrior and a 2+ armour save at the least".

general consensus about WK on first release.

jcd386 wrote:
Another thing to keep in mind is that points costs for marines went up a lot.

Marine vehicles went up in cost, but ork ones went up just as much or more. We used to get a rokkit buggy for 25 points, now it's 72.

jcd386 wrote:
BUT, 41 marines, 6 bikes, and 5 tanks isn't a lot compared to the mass of models orks can bring to the table.

Mass of models?

Ork infantry die faster than an equivalent value in marine infantry to anything with AP 0 or 1. They have more physical models, but they get removed a lot faster.

Scout bikes cost the same as warbikers and are faster with more firepower.

Attack bikes are cheaper than buggies, but seem to be better in every way.

A razorback has only slightly less firepower and durability than a tooled-up battlewagon, but costs half the points.

Most of your units seem to be cheaper than the ork equivalent.

jcd386 wrote:
Also, i think a lot of marines are going to be focusing on heavy weapons like Las Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma guns. Orks don't love those weapons, but they also don't lose that many guys to them. Also orks get their 6+ save now vs a lot of thing they didn't before.

You can have 90+ ork boys and 3 power claws for 615 points. I'm honestly not sure that a lot of marine armies could even handle that if they are set up to fight tanks etc. Not to mention the other 1400ish points of your army.

So, if you dedicate your list to nothing but anti-tank, you might struggle to kill infantry? What a shocker. Next you'll tell me that if you bring all anti-infantry weapons imperial knights will trample you.

630 points in HB devastators gets you 24 heavy bolters. That will easily chew through all the orks in three turns of shooting. Deploy them right and you will have at least that. Plus they are harder to kill themselves than 90 orks and can handle close combat so long as they aren't outnumbered by the time the orks arrive.

Yup, at the moment it looks like yet another edition of Orks getting boned while the Speese Mahreens and elves get all the good stuff.

The fact that the Rhino, which used to be MORE expensive then the Trukk just got cheaper while the Trukk just lost its one AMAZING ability is ridiculous.

Trukkz were good for one and only one reason. Open Topped/Assault Vehicle. Now every vehicle has this ability so now trukkz are just a more expensive Crappier version of a Rhino. (Rhinos are T7 10Wounds with a 3+ save, Trukkz are T6 10 Wounds with 4+ Save) GW just bent us over and fethed us for another edition....whats that 4 in a row now?

SemperMortis wrote:
Yup, at the moment it looks like yet another edition of Orks getting boned while the Speese Mahreens and elves get all the good stuff.

The fact that the Rhino, which used to be MORE expensive then the Trukk just got cheaper while the Trukk just lost its one AMAZING ability is ridiculous.

Trukkz were good for one and only one reason. Open Topped/Assault Vehicle. Now every vehicle has this ability so now trukkz are just a more expensive Crappier version of a Rhino. (Rhinos are T7 10Wounds with a 3+ save, Trukkz are T6 10 Wounds with 4+ Save) GW just bent us over and fethed us for another edition....whats that 4 in a row now?

Do Trukks have any advantage over Rhinos? I'm also curious as how expensive our weapons are compared to other armies, do we get a price cut on them because of our BS? I'm starting to feel concerned

Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?

http://www.litko.net/products.php?product=Skirmish-Trays-for-25mm-Round-Bases-%28All-Patterns%29
Movement trays, if you have some link for cheaper movements trays don't hesitate to send it.
I think in v8 we will not play that much trukks, it will most like BW and foot ork.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

little-killer wrote:
http://www.litko.net/products.php?product=Skirmish-Trays-for-25mm-Round-Bases-%28All-Patterns%29
Movement trays, if you have some link for cheaper movements trays don't hesitate to send it.
I think in v8 we will not play that much trukks, it will be BW and foot ork.

Well lets take a look. Our TL Weapons just got MARGINALLY better. TL Dakkagunz went from 1.6 hits per shooting phase to 2. TL Heavy Bolters just went from 2.6 hits per shooting phase to 4.

Ork Cover just went form 4+ Ruins cover to 5+ Ruins cover but with AP -1 weapons we are back up to 6+ Space Marines just went from 4+ Ruins cover to 2+ Ruins cover, against AP-1 weapons they are back to their 3+ Saves.

Our FNP Just went from 5+ to 6+. our KFF only benefits a unit if its ENTIRELY within the bubble. Our Cybork stayed just as crappy as before (6+ FNP roll, doesnt stack and you cant take both that and a regular FNP roll)

Our Best unit Warbikers went up in price 50%, battlewagons went up 50%

Trukkz MORE THEN DOUBLED IN PRICE.

Ohh and just to really put a bit of lemon juice in the open wound, our Mek Gunz went from T7 3+ Armor save to T5 5+ Armor save, and guess what? their price stayed the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I meant that Rhinos just became CHEAPER then Trukkz.

SemperMortis wrote:
Well lets take a look. Our TL Weapons just got MARGINALLY better. TL Dakkagunz went from 1.6 hits per shooting phase to 2. TL Heavy Bolters just went from 2.6 hits per shooting phase to 4.

Ork Cover just went form 4+ Ruins cover to 5+ Ruins cover but with AP -1 weapons we are back up to 6+ Space Marines just went from 4+ Ruins cover to 2+ Ruins cover, against AP-1 weapons they are back to their 3+ Saves.

Our FNP Just went from 5+ to 6+. our KFF only benefits a unit if its ENTIRELY within the bubble. Our Cybork stayed just as crappy as before (6+ FNP roll, doesnt stack and you cant take both that and a regular FNP roll)

Our Best unit Warbikers went up in price 50%, battlewagons went up 50%

Trukkz MORE THEN DOUBLED IN PRICE.

Ohh and just to really put a bit of lemon juice in the open wound, our Mek Gunz went from T7 3+ Armor save to T5 5+ Armor save, and guess what? their price stayed the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I meant that Rhinos just became CHEAPER then Trukkz.

Eh eh eh, let's see some positive, the fnp from painboy affects all units with a model within 6" of the painboy.

little-killer wrote:


Eh eh eh, let's see some positive, the fnp from painboy affects all units with a model within 6" of the painboy.

Yup, nothing like getting a 6+ FNP save for 2 maybe 3 units that are lumped together.....All for the low low price of 40pts, 90 if hes on a bike.

SemperMortis wrote:

little-killer wrote:


Eh eh eh, let's see some positive, the fnp from painboy affects all units with a model within 6" of the painboy.

Yup, nothing like getting a 6+ FNP save for 2 maybe 3 units that are lumped together.....All for the low low price of 40pts, 90 if hes on a bike.

Since there is no template you can stack as much units as you want, so you don't have to buy one painboy per big unit.