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lessthanjeff wrote: Figured I'd ask you guys in case you've noticed something I haven't and it's driving me crazy.
Power level for Wolf Scouts vs generic Space Marine Scouts seems way off. Our wolf scouts have more gear options, the same stat line, and cost 2 less power points. I feel like I have to be missing something simple but I can't figure out what it is.
Behind Enemy Lines.
Vanilla Scouts can Combat Squad and Scout deep into no-man's land on the first turn.
Wolf Scouts arrive from any board edge their controlling player chooses at any point in the game their controlling player chooses to bring them in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 09:01:15
Besides being personally not a fan of fen wolves and bikes, that's a pretty choppy list! You could potentially get beat up for your lower model count but... looks good to me! I think it's awesome that so far all our lists have been really different!
Yeah, I agree with you about the fen wolves. I think they're too fragile and will give the enemy an easy first blood/kill point. I included them for use as a screening force to protect against T1 charges or to help lock enemy units in close combat. I might have to rethink that. I envision the Swiftclaws being used to kill enemy troop units who are camping objectives or to use their speed to score far objectives since my assault force is likely to be in contact early on. The list as is lacks any sort of supporting fire which is a concern. Dropping the Swiftclaws and fen wolves would free up 515 points which could be used on a couple of small GH/BC packs in Razorbacks. I'll have to play around with it a bit.
I'd have to double check the Wulfen Hunt curse but if it adds the extra inches into charging I'd trade the 515 points for Skyclaws, Wulfen and a Drop Pod.
Headstrong? Who gives a damn, you'll be charging the nearest enemy unit anyway.
Low BS? Your opponent is going to take anything you kill off the front lines so you have to charge further anyway.
I'd have to double check the Wulfen Hunt curse but if it adds the extra inches into charging I'd trade the 515 points for Skyclaws, Wulfen and a Drop Pod.
Headstrong? Who gives a damn, you'll be charging the nearest enemy unit anyway.
Low BS? Your opponent is going to take anything you kill off the front lines so you have to charge further anyway.
The sheet I have says the Hunt table lets you re-roll the charge, not add inches. Which is EXTRA good when you add in the idea of CP allowing you to reroll any dice for a phase or whatever. However it's a 6" range unless you're Blood Claws, which are 12". Sadly it seems Skyclaws no longer have the 12" benefit.
It seems odd they would not include other variations of 'young' Space wolves like the Skyclaws or Swiftclaws....
I believe this is because of the Skyclaws being able to deep strike now so accurately. So just a little balancing tweak.
¨
Might want to recheck keywords for Skyclaws and Swiftclaws. They are Blood Claws for the purposes of Wulfen rules.
E: Lukas's aura also affects Skyclaws and Swiftclaws while we are at it.
Oh wow... I did not notice that!! That's awesome!! Thank you! I need to pay better attention to these key words. I just assumed it was the unit of blood claws haha.
Lukas is something I really want to make use of, only problem is he's still so slow.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: How do we feel about Thunder hammers on TWC? I have all my pack leaders with thunder hammers but I am thinking of ripping their arms off for axes or swords. They only get 3 attacks now.. with the -1 to hit, I'd rather make sure I'm hitting with an axe more (that will likely hit on a 3 the same as a TH on a TWC) for 10 less points. Even with the hammers being damage 3. Also thinking, since frost swords are so cheap, just putting frost swords on the TWC instead of chain swords.
After reviewing my list I'm thinking of dropping a lot of the storm shields as well. I normally had SS on every TWC but... 15 pts per model now. Maybe I'll just put them on a few main axe/TH guys. You can give them ALL plasma pistols for just 7 points a pop now! So a Frost sword + plasma pistol costs the 1 point less than a single storm shield on them.
Decisions...
I think they are still viable, just not an auto-take now. They are still S8 wounding most everything on a 2+/3+ and inflicting 3 wounds, Toss in a Wolf Lord, Wolf Priest (On a Bike) and the -1 to hit will not mater as much.
Well since I run multiple dreads I have 2 Iron Priests on TWC running around. I feel like that's where my hammers are if I need them, especially since as you said they're not an autotake. How do you feel about the stormshields though? Especially since I intend to bring Wulfen as well. I'd put two thunder hammers with them. 15 points on the TWC for one is harsh... for termies it's only 5 points! I feel like I might get more bang for my buck with a plasma pistol on everyone.
Currently I think they are good, but possibly something Thunderwolves need. They are big and Scary and have three Wounds. This will make them the target of Anti-Tank Weapons and most do horrible things to Armor saves. I would take at least half of them with Storm Shields, me personally I am sticking with one on each.
My TWC have always been a majority Storm Shield thing.
3x TWC means two Storm Shields and one model with a pair of Wolf Claws, the Wolf Claws have lost a lot of their bite with the reduction of TWCs base power but they're still extra attacks at higher strength and ap, meaning they can potentially cut wounds off anything. Pack Leader gets a pair of claws and he's swinging eight s5 attacks, five with higher ap, three with a bit lower - nasty.
kodos wrote: the SM Sergeant is the equivalent of the standard Pack Leader (there is no veteran sergeant upgrade for vanilla marines)
yes, a Blood Claw Pack Leader cost the same points as a normal Blood Claw
the problem with Wolfguard Pack Leader is:
if they cost like regular models of the unit and have not their own entry, they also have the same keywords as the unit
which makes no sense that a Wolf Guard Pack Leader has the Bloodclaw keyword instead of Wolfguard (and would not count as WG for the BC forst assault special rule)
if they count as Wolfguard and have the Wolfguard keyword from the WG entry, you cannot use the Bloodclaw points as WG have their own.
Its so they don't stop the unit getting Blood Claw specific things like Wulfen auras at 12 inches and Lukas' bonuses.
If one model of the squad doesn't get re-rolls on their charges, none of them do. As for the cost I'd just cough up standard Wolf Guard costs to keep myself feeling honest.
How are they getting the improved damage. They have to set up more than 9" away and half range is than 9" or less. The 9" restriction is there for everyone in order to mess with flamers, charges, weapons that shoot better from half range, etc. Furthermore, even with the improved role, a melta shot only has a 50% chance to wound a T8 vehicle and does an average of 4.5 damage with the improved role. An average of 4.5 (I'm treating them as auto hit even though they're 97% only.) isn't wiping out any tanks. Heck, their average damage to a Rhino (or other T7) in that situation is still only 6 points (or 4.6666 if you didn't let them cheat). It's not that different from any other army that can deep-strike melta, though I guess somewhat cheaper and more accurate.
You're correct, they don't get the improved damage roll. Still, consider 4 tau commanders with 4 multimeltas (about 650 pts). Add in a longstrike with BS 2+, Str10 with +1 mod, -4 ap and D6dmg. That's +2/+2 for D6dmg to your land raider. That's an average of 21.5 wounds on T8 tanks on turn one. And unlike terminators, they have a 26"+D6 range on their meltas (movement + advance + shooting range, no penalties to hit due to aura), so deepstriking on a single target is viable, without the risk of leaving them useless in coming turns. That's about 900 pts of Tau with the longstrike.
Maybe i'm being dramatic, but it seems insanely powerful against everything due to the fall back rule, and that each commander is his own unit (charge one model, 2 models fire overwatch - next turn, Tau falls back and fires with remaining 3 models).
Try telling the Tyrannids that the nine inch rule matters, there's nice big MCs lovingly referred to as Pyrovores that can be monster dropped just outside of nine inches and drop a ten inch flamer round on the enemy.
As for T'au I think Guard and Nid armies will change them - the loss of template and shot for shot efficiency means T'au players can't just invest in marker drones and MCs anymore, they gotta balance those things against what hoard armies bring to the table in a newer way. I haven't had more than a browse over the Xenos bookies but personally I'm expecting successful T'au lists to be more aggressive on deepstrike tactics rather than sit back and shoot gunline style.
My Space Wolves in 8th - a grand total of five games to date - tend to revolve around Grey Hunters and Wolf Scouts, I'm still toying with things like TWC and Wulfen, I seem to be playing a game that only Necrons played in 7th, a core of footslogging troops, couple of toys and a couple of reserve tricks - the Space Wolves have a unique and truly nasty DreadStar if you know your mutts, I've only had two games with it but so far it's been hated by both opponents and spectators.
Blackie wrote: How would you run a big unit of Blood Claws? I haven't tried my SW yet since they're my third army and I've read the codex only a moment ago, but I'm preparing them to battle
I'd like to try the max unit on foot with Lukas and Ulrik the Slayer. I also wanted to field the stormwolf and embark them on it but the flyer has become awfully expensive and I wonder if it worths the points sink now.
Lukas + Ulrik and Blood Claws supported by Wulfen is a pretty potent combo but very expensive. I feel that if you're going to put all of those elements into a list, then that becomes the theme of the list with perhaps some heavy support to kill the tougher enemy units.
Stormwolves are risky. I have two of them but I very rarely ever use them as they tend to crash and burn too often. I haven't used them in 8th yet because their hideously expensive but I might try one out as a delivery system soon. Since flyers can start on the board now you could pack them two of them with some powerful units and reduce the number of drops you have to secure first turn. The extra mobility will allow you to concentrate on one portion of the enemy line and bring your assault to bear on T2. Might be viable...?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dakka Wolf wrote: My Space Wolves in 8th - a grand total of five games to date - tend to revolve around Grey Hunters and Wolf Scouts, I'm still toying with things like TWC and Wulfen, I seem to be playing a game that only Necrons played in 7th, a core of footslogging troops, couple of toys and a couple of reserve tricks - the Space Wolves have a unique and truly nasty DreadStar if you know your mutts, I've only had two games with it but so far it's been hated by both opponents and spectators.
How are your footsloggers fairing? I have had some pretty poor luck with mine as they tend to get shot up as they cross the board. I usually include a Rune Priest for the cover power but that really only benefits one pack in matched play.
So so.
People usually focus on the toys like TWC, Wulfen, Characters.
All of my opponents to date have been FLGS buddies so some of them know me well enough to see what I emphasise before it hits the field.
So so.
People usually focus on the toys like TWC, Wulfen, Characters.
All of my opponents to date have been FLGS buddies so some of them know me well enough to see what I emphasise before it hits the field.
What's your dreadstar consist of again? I had bjorn and two axe noughts and they were all quite tanky. However I realized bjorn has no invulnerable save!
Three Shield Dreads in a triangle with loaded Long Fangs and an Iron Priest or two between them.
Aetare wrote: Are you having the wulfen start in the drop pod? Even with the re-roll buff on the charge they may not make it in their first turn, and they don't have any shooting options unfortunately. Otherwise drop pods got very expensive this edition...
Wulfen, sadly, cannot be taken in a drop pod. Least that's what I'm seeing.
The notation is a bit odd. Land Raider is specifically mentioned to be able to carry Wulfen, however nowhere else can I see a restriction for Wulfen and what transport they can occupy. Drop Pods allow Infantry and Wulfen are infantry... The restriction is pretty implicit if you ask me.
I viewed it as listing the only things that can carry Wulfen from the regular Space Marines entry. It's listing what we can use from the regular SM armory, then lists what from that armory may transport Wulfen. As that key word won't show up in regular SM data sheets. Especially since they're treated like Terminators for the Land Raider and you can't take Terminators in a drop pod. So while it doesn't explicitly stop you from taking them in a Dpod... I think RAI would say you can't take one. Otherwise you could take them in a Rhino or Razorback.
So the blurb about the LR in the beginning of the SW section states "These vehicles can also transport Wulfen. Each Wulfen model takes the space of two other models". I think this is meant to be added onto the regular LR ruling of "...each Jump Pack or Terminator model takes the space of two other models..." to make it become "...each Jump Pack, Terminator, or Wulfen model takes the space of two other models..."
Even though they are listed as Infantry, I'm pretty sure you can't take drop pods or rhinos because, for example with the Stormfang, it explicitly states it can transport wulfen but it's still slightly unclear. Why wouldn't they just list wulfen with the "can not transport" portion if you couldn't? We can just chalk this up to good ole' GW writing.
Can't we always - check out some of the unit photos for the Space Wolves in Index: Imperium 1, complete with no longer legal loadouts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 09:41:02
So so.
People usually focus on the toys like TWC, Wulfen, Characters.
All of my opponents to date have been FLGS buddies so some of them know me well enough to see what I emphasise before it hits the field.
Main problem with my army is that I don't have any other vehicle than a stormwolf and 3 pods. I hate SM vehicles and no way I would use them With the new codex I'm focussed around a list with 10 thunderwolves (eventually promoting one of them as an HQ), a rune priest on bike, 15 wulfen and 5 long fangs. In order to have more CP I need to field some troops and I'm oriented in min grey hunters squads as I don't have many points left. Basically the same list that I used to play in 7th without the grey hunters in drop pods joined by the wyrdstorm brotherhood, but only with fewer troop models which are footslogging now.
Alternatively I'd like to play a list with all my infantries models, 15 blood claws and 3x10 grey hunters other than long fangs. This way I wouldn't have enough points for both TWC and wulfen, and I guess I will be forced to ditch the thunderwolves. In fact with 15 wulfen, ulrik and a rune priest on bike I'm already at 1995 points, without lukas though. Looks like a 100% fluffy list, no chance to compete against any decent list.
I'm also considering to add a second unit of long fangs, lascannons this time, and a couple of dreads, which looks way better now. Maybe a land raider crusader to deliver the big blob but I'm not fond of the model and I would buy it only with a significant price cut.
Wolf Scouts mate.
Wolf Scouts can pseudo fill the role of both Long Fangs and Grey Hunters - they don't need Drop Pods and they cost less than either.
2017/06/22 03:25:47
Subject: Re:Owoo!! Space Wolf Tactica: 8th Edition.
Trying to squeeze a battalion detachment
So far I have
HQ - 3x WGBL 180pts
Troops
- 3x Blood Claws 195
- 3x Grey Hunters 210
Elites
- 3x Wolf Scouts 165
Heavy Support
- 3x Long Fangs 225
Fast Attack
- 3x Sky Claws 240
Grand total of 1215 points
Any ideas for fleshing it out to a 2000 point list?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 11:53:03
Northern85Star wrote: I think i've got it. An unfluffy, dishonourable approach, but this is the cheapest, most points effective way to bring fiery death IMO.
5 x WG w/ jumpacks, combi-melta, SS and chainsaw. 225 pts. 5 x melta on deepstrike, 3+ invul on all, 3 attacks in melee, 12" move (12"+12"+D6" effective range).
50 pts cheaper than 5 x WG w/ TDA combi-melta, powersword for: -1 W, +1 A, no -3 rend, +7" move, 1 less armor, and 3+ invul instead of 5+. Can also disengage and shoot in the same round.
Seems like to way to go to maximize loadout. Strictly better specialized for the job of hunting tanks.
Pretty crazy that WG can exchange their pistol for a 5 pts 3+ invul save in the SS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is probably an error, since WGBL can't select a similar loadout.
There is reason, models with one wound often can't get maximum benefit from save bonuses, look at Terminators in the last edition - cough up twenty points for a 2+ and 5++ save, roll a one and lose it all to a single las pistol shot.
With Command Points freak accidents like that are less likely but there's still that one time you lose both the model and the Command Point.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: I picked up the new Forgeworld index for Astartes and the Lucius Drop pod still in! With no model it's another "use the regular pod" I guess.
So.. that changes my Dreadnought usage. Instead of covering for Bjorn I think i'd prefer to pod them in.
Haven't checked in on the thread in a couple days. A lot of good ideas coming up... the WG with jump packs especially seems nice.
Murderfang is back in the game!
How's the Lucius work in this edition? Auto Disembark or still an extra lot of Wounds?
ArmchairArbiter wrote: I picked up the new Forgeworld index for Astartes and the Lucius Drop pod still in! With no model it's another "use the regular pod" I guess.
So.. that changes my Dreadnought usage. Instead of covering for Bjorn I think i'd prefer to pod them in.
Haven't checked in on the thread in a couple days. A lot of good ideas coming up... the WG with jump packs especially seems nice.
Murderfang is back in the game!
How's the Lucius work in this edition? Auto Disembark or still an extra lot of Wounds?
The dreadnought inside must immediately disembark like a normal pod. It can also only carry 1 dreadnought unit. It actually specifies that it may only carry a dreadnought now as well. It doesn't come with any weapons or anything either. It costs 120 points.
I feel like 120 points isn't a terrible investment for slamming a couple axe and board dreads into someones face.
The Lucius only ever carried Dreads, you don't use them for slamming the Dread in their face in this edition - since they arrive when you want them to between turns one and the end of your turn three movement phase you have a lot more flexibility to put them down where they present the most threat, and since Heavy Flamers fall an inch short of the enemy you're putting them down differently too, now you drop them in response to your opponent's movements - forcing them to keep bunched until the Dread lands or suffering it tearing into their loose ends.
Things that catched my eye from playing my first match of the 8th edition with a foot slogger list (Grey Hunters with WGT leader, 3x TWC with lots of equipment, TWC Lord, Terminator Njal, Vindicare, Long Fangs) against and Eldar elite army and from reading the index and lots of brainstorming:
- Foot slogging Grey Hunters with a Terminator leader are trash, 5" of movement gets you nowhere and people can easily take your squads apart as you will get little cover bonuses now that you need ALL the models in the unit in a terrain piece to get them, put them in a Rhino or at least leave off the Terminator, just not worth it if neither the squad nor the terminator can't take a heavy weapon.
- A power armour wolf guard pack leader costs as much as a regular model in a unit, while having another attack and still counting towards 'one special weapon per 5 models in the unit' limits. While they themselves give you another point of leadership, abovementioned extra attack as well as access to another special weapon (combi) or a super cheap and very killy storm bolter, so there is no reason to not take one in any pack that can take them.
- There is little reason to take Njal in his Terminator armour. His Power-Armour version is 29 points cheaper and already has a 2+ save and a 5+ inv save. 29 points just for a 4+ inv and one wound at the price of nerfed movement is steep, only take it if you want to deep-strike him, you can e.g. get two SS on TWC for the point difference. PA Njal is only 133 points too, so there is no reason to ever take a standard Rune Priest if you have the extra points, Njal does the job so much better, particularly psychic defense.
- Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves are beat sticks... but Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are much more point efficient while being almost as good. There is especially little reason to take a Lord if you will take a Storm Shield anyway. You pay 31 points extra over the WGBL version and the only things you gain is one wound (7 instead of 6), a 4+ inv save that's wasted anyway if you take a SS and BS 2+ which doesn't matter either (you want that SS after all, right?), and +1 Leadership which basically doesn't matter for characters that don't have a morale buff bubble. You don't even get additional attacks. Re-rolling to-wound rolls of 1 is not quite but almost as good as re-rolling 1s to hit.
Paying 122 instead of 153 points on your melee beat stick goes a long way to free up more points for other things in your list and getting more bodies on the table (which is always a problem if you run TWC + TW Characters).
- Long Fangs with plasma cannons are much better than missile launchers statistically against MEQ/TEQ (and most of our army already covers killing hordes) and monsters/vehicles if you overcharge against the latter, which is very save to do thanks to your re-roll 1s ability. And you pay 4 points less. I definitely recommend stacking up on Lascannons, Plasma cannons and Heavy Bolters (would take 1-2 per squad as extra ablative wounds). Missile Launchers are just too expensive for the jack of all trades role when horde killing is already covered by almost all of the units we consider must-haves (e.g. TWC, Grey Hunters, etc.), while we seriously lack ranged tank hunting ability if we don't take Predators. I'd always take a Wolf Guard Pack leader as ablative wound and give him a super cheap 2 pt. stormbolter so he can contribute. Terminator WG are also an option, though I'd keep them cheap and use them to soak small-arms wounds. Build examples given below
- Storm Bolters on Wolf Guard are amazing, especially for pack leaders. They are only 2 points while giving you the firepower of two Grey Hunters. A serious consideration over the often ten times as expensive combi weapons. A Wolf Guard pack leader in a Wolf Scout unit armed with a SB is only 13 points. If you aren't taking terminator assault builds, combi weapons or give them Terminator Heavy Weapons then I'd always give every single Wolf Guard a SB if points allow.
- Spamming Stormshields and special melee weapons on TWC should be reconsidered IMO. Remember that mortal wounds COMPLETELY ignore them, and there is quite a bunch of units that dish them out. Even one smite will do a serious number on a TWC unit and you will regret stacking all the pricy equipment on them in that case, especially when a SS costs 15 points (3 of them gets you another TWC rider :/!) . Particularly Eldar and Grey Knights can spam smite without remorse (the latter with almost every single unit, even if only dealing one mortal wound with most of them). In my first 8th Edition game against eldar they just melted thanks to being mortal wound spammed, despite having 3 SSs.
Also every TWC model besides the pack leader only has two attacks that benefit from special weapons, and with a S4 base stat. As a result I'd keep them as cheap and expandable as possible, to serve as an efficient shield for the Thunderwolf Lord/WGBL they shield and who deals the actual damage. So only 1-2 Stormshields max on a unit of four or five and only one cheaper special melee weapon (e.g. a frost blade or power axe) on the pack leader who has three attacks to actually benefit from it. 45 for a thunderwolf isn't that cheap to begin with and the chainsword actually gives them an extra attack to boot. I'd still keep bolt pistols over other ranged weapons as you WILL want to advance/run to get closer and when you actually get to use them they are an extra, out of sequence attack in melee.
- Land Raider Crusaders are amazing, while Land Raider Redeemers are massively overpriced and have LESS firepower. Now I regret not magnetizing that Redeemer I built 8 years ago.
- Arjac as mentioned before is amazing for his points and has massive synergy with cheap, teleporting Terminator units. Re-roll 1s to wound AND an extra attack to all of them if within 6". And rather unkillable. For only 140 points.
- I wouldn't go overboard with combi weapons, they are pricy and especially combi-meltas are not as good as they might look on paper (you need to deep strike 9" away from any enemy model, and you need to get within 6" to benefit from them), while SBs are extremely cheap for what they offer...
- ... Though as far as Wolf Guard Terminators are considered, 50/point Termies with combi-plasma and a power sword, as well as 37 points for a SB+Power sword (and only another point for power axes, which we got plenty of thanks to Grey Hunter sprues with all their two handed power axes!) are the absolute highlights though, even without overcharging the plasma.
- Single wolf claws seem nice but look rather weak compared to 1 point more expensive frost axes and particularly cheaper frost blades.
---
Example Long Fang loadouts that are only slightly more expansive than a 4x Lascannon Predator but much cheaper to buy moneywise and have more damage output, while having several ablative wounds would e.g. be
Long Fangs [10 PL, 205pts]
1x Long Fang w/ Lascannon
3x Long Fang w/Plasma cannon
1x Long Fang w/ Heavy bolter
Long Fang Pack Leader w/ Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Wolf Guard Pack Leader w/ Chainsword, Storm bolter
or
2x Long Fang w/ Lascannon
2x Long Fang w/ Plasma cannon
1x Long Fang w/Heavy bolter
Long Fang Pack Leader w/ Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Wolf Guard Pack Leader w/ Chainsword, Storm bolter
Hope I managed to contribute something worthwhile with this wall of text .
I think you did good.
Storm Bolters are beyond amazing in this edition, they give us firepower that makes Tau and Imperial Guard re-think their purpose in life.
2017/06/28 03:35:20
Subject: Re:Owoo!! Space Wolf Tactica: 8th Edition.
Things that catched my eye from playing my first match of the 8th edition with a foot slogger list (Grey Hunters with WGT leader, 3x TWC with lots of equipment, TWC Lord, Terminator Njal, Vindicare, Long Fangs) against and Eldar elite army and from reading the index and lots of brainstorming:
- Foot slogging Grey Hunters with a Terminator leader are trash, 5" of movement gets you nowhere and people can easily take your squads apart as you will get little cover bonuses now that you need ALL the models in the unit in a terrain piece to get them, put them in a Rhino or at least leave off the Terminator, just not worth it if neither the squad nor the terminator can't take a heavy weapon.
- A power armour wolf guard pack leader costs as much as a regular model in a unit, while having another attack and still counting towards 'one special weapon per 5 models in the unit' limits. While they themselves give you another point of leadership, abovementioned extra attack as well as access to another special weapon (combi) or a super cheap and very killy storm bolter, so there is no reason to not take one in any pack that can take them.
- There is little reason to take Njal in his Terminator armour. His Power-Armour version is 29 points cheaper and already has a 2+ save and a 5+ inv save. 29 points just for a 4+ inv and one wound at the price of nerfed movement is steep, only take it if you want to deep-strike him, you can e.g. get two SS on TWC for the point difference. PA Njal is only 133 points too, so there is no reason to ever take a standard Rune Priest if you have the extra points, Njal does the job so much better, particularly psychic defense.
- Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves are beat sticks... but Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are much more point efficient while being almost as good. There is especially little reason to take a Lord if you will take a Storm Shield anyway. You pay 31 points extra over the WGBL version and the only things you gain is one wound (7 instead of 6), a 4+ inv save that's wasted anyway if you take a SS and BS 2+ which doesn't matter either (you want that SS after all, right?), and +1 Leadership which basically doesn't matter for characters that don't have a morale buff bubble. You don't even get additional attacks. Re-rolling to-wound rolls of 1 is not quite but almost as good as re-rolling 1s to hit.
Paying 122 instead of 153 points on your melee beat stick goes a long way to free up more points for other things in your list and getting more bodies on the table (which is always a problem if you run TWC + TW Characters).
- Long Fangs with plasma cannons are much better than missile launchers statistically against MEQ/TEQ (and most of our army already covers killing hordes) and monsters/vehicles if you overcharge against the latter, which is very save to do thanks to your re-roll 1s ability. And you pay 4 points less. I definitely recommend stacking up on Lascannons, Plasma cannons and Heavy Bolters (would take 1-2 per squad as extra ablative wounds). Missile Launchers are just too expensive for the jack of all trades role when horde killing is already covered by almost all of the units we consider must-haves (e.g. TWC, Grey Hunters, etc.), while we seriously lack ranged tank hunting ability if we don't take Predators. I'd always take a Wolf Guard Pack leader as ablative wound and give him a super cheap 2 pt. stormbolter so he can contribute. Terminator WG are also an option, though I'd keep them cheap and use them to soak small-arms wounds. Build examples given below
- Storm Bolters on Wolf Guard are amazing, especially for pack leaders. They are only 2 points while giving you the firepower of two Grey Hunters. A serious consideration over the often ten times as expensive combi weapons. A Wolf Guard pack leader in a Wolf Scout unit armed with a SB is only 13 points. If you aren't taking terminator assault builds, combi weapons or give them Terminator Heavy Weapons then I'd always give every single Wolf Guard a SB if points allow.
- Spamming Stormshields and special melee weapons on TWC should be reconsidered IMO. Remember that mortal wounds COMPLETELY ignore them, and there is quite a bunch of units that dish them out. Even one smite will do a serious number on a TWC unit and you will regret stacking all the pricy equipment on them in that case, especially when a SS costs 15 points (3 of them gets you another TWC rider :/!) . Particularly Eldar and Grey Knights can spam smite without remorse (the latter with almost every single unit, even if only dealing one mortal wound with most of them). In my first 8th Edition game against eldar they just melted thanks to being mortal wound spammed, despite having 3 SSs.
Also every TWC model besides the pack leader only has two attacks that benefit from special weapons, and with a S4 base stat. As a result I'd keep them as cheap and expandable as possible, to serve as an efficient shield for the Thunderwolf Lord/WGBL they shield and who deals the actual damage. So only 1-2 Stormshields max on a unit of four or five and only one cheaper special melee weapon (e.g. a frost blade or power axe) on the pack leader who has three attacks to actually benefit from it. 45 for a thunderwolf isn't that cheap to begin with and the chainsword actually gives them an extra attack to boot. I'd still keep bolt pistols over other ranged weapons as you WILL want to advance/run to get closer and when you actually get to use them they are an extra, out of sequence attack in melee.
- Land Raider Crusaders are amazing, while Land Raider Redeemers are massively overpriced and have LESS firepower. Now I regret not magnetizing that Redeemer I built 8 years ago.
- Arjac as mentioned before is amazing for his points and has massive synergy with cheap, teleporting Terminator units. Re-roll 1s to wound AND an extra attack to all of them if within 6". And rather unkillable. For only 140 points.
- I wouldn't go overboard with combi weapons, they are pricy and especially combi-meltas are not as good as they might look on paper (you need to deep strike 9" away from any enemy model, and you need to get within 6" to benefit from them), while SBs are extremely cheap for what they offer...
- ... Though as far as Wolf Guard Terminators are considered, 50/point Termies with combi-plasma and a power sword, as well as 37 points for a SB+Power sword (and only another point for power axes, which we got plenty of thanks to Grey Hunter sprues with all their two handed power axes!) are the absolute highlights though, even without overcharging the plasma.
- Single wolf claws seem nice but look rather weak compared to 1 point more expensive frost axes and particularly cheaper frost blades.
---
Example Long Fang loadouts that are only slightly more expansive than a 4x Lascannon Predator but much cheaper to buy moneywise and have more damage output, while having several ablative wounds would e.g. be
Long Fangs [10 PL, 205pts]
1x Long Fang w/ Lascannon
3x Long Fang w/Plasma cannon
1x Long Fang w/ Heavy bolter
Long Fang Pack Leader w/ Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Wolf Guard Pack Leader w/ Chainsword, Storm bolter
or
2x Long Fang w/ Lascannon
2x Long Fang w/ Plasma cannon
1x Long Fang w/Heavy bolter
Long Fang Pack Leader w/ Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Wolf Guard Pack Leader w/ Chainsword, Storm bolter
Hope I managed to contribute something worthwhile with this wall of text .
I think you did good.
Storm Bolters are beyond amazing in this edition, they give us firepower that makes Tau and Imperial Guard re-think their purpose in life.
Im currently wondering the best way to utilize them. I keep thinking wolfguard bikers with storm bolters and shields are deadly. 41 points a head, 8 shots each at 12 inches and the move to get there. If they get charged they still have thier chain swords so they are still 3 attacks each.
Depends on the opponent - WGBikers are amazing all-rounders, they throw down enormous amounts of dice.
They aren't heavy hitters though - I'd be hunting Infantry and hoards early game then using them to throw more dice at MCs and Vehicles in the late game.
I think Razerbacks with Assault Cannons and Storm Bolters will be my dedicated big game hunters.
2017/06/28 08:43:32
Subject: Re:Owoo!! Space Wolf Tactica: 8th Edition.
One out of two, the other nabbed the wooden spoon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: How do people feel about Swiftclaws in 8th? I recently purchased some bike models from the used bin at my FLGS. The bikes themselves are built already, but not the riders. I was debating using them as Swiftclaws, making one of them a Wolf Guard Bike Leader to bring a frost weapon (the squad was going to be tooled for melee). Are they any good?
Swiftclaws aren't bad there are just better things in the same roll. If you're looking to save a hundred points I'd grab some Swiftclaws.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 08:47:03
Blackie wrote: Stormbolters are amazing, I agree, they're way undercosted. But how can you spam them?
Other than bikers, which I'm not going to buy.
I'd like to give those stormbolters to all pack leaders but they are 3-6 at most. And a wolf guard unit on foot (or embarked in some vehicles) isn't cheap, having more grey hunters is better IMHO.
I also agree with ragnar about thunderwolves but I also think that a single thunder hammer in each squad should find a room. It's quite cheap and extreme deadly.
biggie_reg wrote: Wolf Guard Termies aren't a unit that you can cheaply spam, though we have better reason to have them equipped with storm bolsters now that they doubled in firepower
Not truly cheaply but at 185 points for five with Storm Bolters and Power Swords they aren't bad value either and they're stupidly flexible - like Wolf Guard with Jump-Packs and Skyclaws they can be dropped in Rapid-Fire range, unlike Jump-Guard and Skyclaws they are likely to survive EWO triggers to hammer their twenty shots into the enemy, admittedly, once you have dropped them they are limited to 5" movement but they're still not Immobile, plant them between units you want to shoot and objectives that will force your opponent to divert forces to defend then march over, sit on them and bunker down. Ten ap-3 melee attacks aren't to be laughed off either, anyyhing that wants to dislodge them will have to have the bollocks to pass through Storm Bolters and Power Swords to contest that objective, easing pressure off your lines.
2017/06/29 23:10:51
Subject: Re:Owoo!! Space Wolf Tactica: 8th Edition.
Note: I made a mistake in my list. At the time, I did not realize that regular dreads could not take Fenrisian Great Axes + Blizzard Shields. But going forward, I'd probably drop either 1 dread or my infantry to fit the Venerables in.
Been thinking of dread heavy list too, but with 2-3 ironpriests on foot to heal the dreads, while the wolf priest heals the iron priests if they take damage. Do you think iron priests would benefit your army? Or is the D3 heal per model too little?
My idea was to let blizz shield dreads encircle the iron priests and wolf priest in a 6" radius from the wolf priest. Venerable dreads have 6+ regen on every unsaved wound, so they should get atleast 1 W back from that, then D3 from the iron priests which again benefits from the blizz shield and regen, if not killed in one turn, of course.
Iron Priests are amazing, it's worth keeping something quick and melee focused nearby, most opponents will try to cut the priest away from the dreads, you'll need to cut it or the Dread free every turn or two.
Northern85Star wrote: Thanks! With 6 dreads encircling the HQ, there's still lots of points left. Maybe run a couple of the WG bike squat that's been talked about, screened by the deathstar, to take off when enemies are near to get directly into haf range and fire 40 bolt shots at whatever is trying to cut the formation. Alternatively to fill gaps in the formation. Wolf priest can heal the bikers too.
Im interested in hearing what people think is generally strongest between 5 WG bikes and 3 TWC (both with SS on every model), as these units are roughly the same points cost.
In my opinion Wolf Guard Bikers are more flexible but TWC respond better to buff auras - Having three wounds each means a Wolf Priest has more chance of saving models, they can chew through blob units and wound most big things naturally on a 5+, a little bit on the costly side but more than capable.
WGB on the other hand are stupidly mobile bolter platforms, capable in melee but nothing special - I use them for thinning MSU that don't recover numbers.
I need to pay better attention to these key words. I just assumed it was the unit of blood claws haha. 
