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I would probably just take a Rhino over a Drop Pod now. Pods are too expensive to sacrifice one for a suicide squad and I don't think Wolves bring enough dakka or survivability to really drop into other armies face with impunity. Also no Dreads in Pods any more, sad face. :(
Maybe now that you can actually take ablative wounds on Long Fangs and moving doesn't cause snap shots anymore, a unit of 4-5 multimeltas and fiveish bolter guys might make for a feasible threat against vehicles or monsters. Make it two of those packs and screen them with teleporting terminators and you might actually cause a proper hassle.
Aetare wrote: Are you having the wulfen start in the drop pod? Even with the re-roll buff on the charge they may not make it in their first turn, and they don't have any shooting options unfortunately. Otherwise drop pods got very expensive this edition...
Wulfen, sadly, cannot be taken in a drop pod. Least that's what I'm seeing.
The notation is a bit odd. Land Raider is specifically mentioned to be able to carry Wulfen, however nowhere else can I see a restriction for Wulfen and what transport they can occupy. Drop Pods allow Infantry and Wulfen are infantry... The restriction is pretty implicit if you ask me.
I'd have to double check the Wulfen Hunt curse but if it adds the extra inches into charging I'd trade the 515 points for Skyclaws, Wulfen and a Drop Pod.
Headstrong? Who gives a damn, you'll be charging the nearest enemy unit anyway.
Low BS? Your opponent is going to take anything you kill off the front lines so you have to charge further anyway.
The sheet I have says the Hunt table lets you re-roll the charge, not add inches. Which is EXTRA good when you add in the idea of CP allowing you to reroll any dice for a phase or whatever. However it's a 6" range unless you're Blood Claws, which are 12". Sadly it seems Skyclaws no longer have the 12" benefit.
It seems odd they would not include other variations of 'young' Space wolves like the Skyclaws or Swiftclaws....
I believe this is because of the Skyclaws being able to deep strike now so accurately. So just a little balancing tweak.
¨
Might want to recheck keywords for Skyclaws and Swiftclaws. They are Blood Claws for the purposes of Wulfen rules.
E: Lukas's aura also affects Skyclaws and Swiftclaws while we are at it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/15 08:11:39
So which weapon for Bjorn? Good Old Assault Cannon seems alright but Lascannons are pretty awesome now. 2+ to hit with a reroll seems like two autohits and 2+/3+ to wound almost anything with D6 damage to boot... Thoughts?
I don't know, for Bjorn feels like the Plasma Cannon and Helfrost are kinda mediocre. Against hordes the Assault Cannon feels superior and against tough targets the Twin Lascannon feels superior. Need to playtest a few options then.
So Long Fangs. I have 10 guys with Missile Launchers so it would be so very convenient to run 5+5 Fangs. However for the same points I could get Lascannons which are strictly better against T8+ (and arguably better against any toughness because of better AP) and for a few points less I could get Plasma Cannons which seem to be better than Frag Missiles against anything with a decent save really.
So should I stick with the utility of Missile Launchers or specialize and go 5 Plasma Cannons and 5 Lascannons instead? Or even 5 Lascannons and 5 Heavy Bolters?
It's the same in every codex, unless the sergeant is explicitly stated (e.g. WGPL in TDA), he costs as much as a standard member of the squad. It's only a 2-3 point difference with Wolves though. Orks get a Boss Nob for the price of a Boy and there's a 11 point difference. Go figure. Guess they'll FAQ it soon enough because it's a bit confusing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/17 16:26:02
Never been much of a fan of bikers, but after reading more recent posts here I'm convinced I need two 5man WG bike squads with storm bolters and storm shields. The amount of dakka is just insane. And they can easily be tooled with a power weapon or two so they're no slouches in CC either.
Sad to hear Wulfen are so great, since I don't particularly love the models. Are they notably better than TWC? Or is it the buff bubble that makes them so valuable?
Now that people have a few games under their belt, do we have a good idea what our winning combos are? Do we have any must picks or are all units truly viable?
2017/07/05 08:19:11
Subject: Re:Owoo!! Space Wolf Tactica: 8th Edition.
Just played a couple of games at 1500, a few observations (or rather notes to self):
1) The LRC is a beast, the amount of dakka is just epic. However don't let your LRC get charged by anything, that's a lot of dakka shut down for at least one shooting phase (because the LRC is not going to kill anything in CC)
2) Shield dreads are awesome if your 3++ throwing arm is well developed. However mortal wounds are very much a thing and they are a prime target. Psychic defense might help but I don't think the odds of denying any spells are that high tbh.
3) Terminators are more durable than they used to be, but they are still not super tanky. Volume of fire/hits are still taking them down easy enough. Arjac is a beast though.
4) Don't focus too much on CC units, you need some good dakka to go with it. A mobile army like Eldar are just going to kite you all day long and every turn spent outside of CC is just zero damage. Bring Lascannons.
5) Kill all Hemlock Wraithfighters QUICKLY with said Lascannons.
6) Oh, and never ever use supercharged plasma unless you can reroll ones. It's not worth it.
My list was very elite, 3 Venerable Dreads (2 sword+board, 1 dakka variant), Bjorn and and LRC with an assortment of Terminators including Arjac. Definitely going to work on the list.
Well it would probably be a must pick (and way OP) if it remained the same as before. Orks have a +1A bubble but it's only 6" and costs like 50 points or so.
Not saying that I would mind having a +1A bubble but even at 25 points per pack it might be verging on a must pick.
Wolf guard bikers got a HUGE nerf. No more SB/SS and a melee weapon. If you take a SS you have to take either a melee weapon or a combi.
What this means is that after getting to rapid fire range you really dont want to charge because the offensive output in melee is crippled. And if you dont charge you are very vulnerable to getting charged and essentially shut down for at least one shooting phase.
Thinking of dropping a few shields and taking power weapons to still offer a viable melee threat. Still keeping Storm bolters for all. I have a unit of 7 currently.
Cant say the nerf couldnt be seen miles away and I'm all for balance. However I just bought and modeled the bunch so I'm a bit annoyed.
Sheathed weapons easily count as chainswords (couple have them out as well), Storm Bolter in one hand (or hanging on the waist or even mounted between the bolters on the bike) and storm shields either on hand or attached to the front plate of the bike for ease of access. Not like they are wielding them all at the same time anyway...
Might have to remove a few shields now or replace the melee weapon arms though. Need to playtest a few different loadouts first. Might just keep them as they are because we are not super zealous on WYSIWYG, just as long as you know and tell your opponent what everything is and what the models are carrying. It's either going to be everyone with SS/SB or 1-3 guys with SB and a melee weapon (without the shield). Need to try which loadout works best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah magnetizing is nice, however I seldom do it for infantry since the arms or weapons are so small they tend to get lost in what is called da-pile-of-models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I don't think SS is solely for CC, on the contrary I think it's more valuable when doing ranged battle. Without any shields the bikes would just be picked off by a salvo of overcharged plasma or any medium to high strength high AP weapons that do multiple damage. Shields ramp up the survivability considerably.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/24 07:39:38
Also I don't think SS is solely for CC, on the contrary I think it's more valuable when doing ranged battle. Without any shields the bikes would just be picked off by a salvo of overcharged plasma or any medium to high strength high AP weapons that do multiple damage. Shields ramp up the survivability considerably.
I agree, shields are quite useful to save bikers from enemy shooting, however there should be in the SW list several other targrets that are more appropriate than bikers for anti tank weapons. Things like wulfen, thunderwolves, terminator, razorback or the flyer should soak all the high strength and AP shots. Especially if you keep the WG bikers quite cheap and mostly a shooty unit, they will only attract the S4-5 firepower since everyting else is embarked, out of range (long fangs) or way more killy. One or two shields should be enough in unit with only stormbolters and chainswords.
Valid points, and I have targets for Lascannons and other true Anti-tank weapons but for plasma weapons the bikes are a prime target. I wouldn't waste plasma firepower trying to get a few wounds off of tanks when I can actually kill a couple of models and considerably hamper another unit's firepower. I don't run TWC or Wulfen and my terminators are in a Land Raider so there isn't much else to shoot at at least on the first turn, so a few Storm Shields is absolutely mandatory. I'm thinking of 4 shields at the moment in a unit of 7.
Waaaghpower wrote: I'm especially annoyed by the nerf to Wolf Guard because it makes us explicitly worse than Company Veterans. Pre-nerf, for the same points cost, we lost the Bodyguard rule but gained an extra weapon. Now, it's just... Nada. Nothing. You get nothing.
Well maybe that's an oversight, they are Wolf GUARD after all so it is indeed weird they don't have any means of GUARDING characters. Maybe we'll get something related to bodyguard whenever the Codex hits. A straight up 2+ Look Out Sir would be more convenient than the constant bubblewrapping of characters. Not as an universal rule of course but for select units.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, if it is in the index it is still usable. Also, I think the SW codex is far enough out they will want to release a unit or two with it, so maybe we will get a few of the missing models...but in general yes, from now on GW is mostly going to have the options in the codex be the options in the plastic kits. We'll be able to use the models for a while though, at least until the next time they redo the indexes, i imagine.
It's sad. On one hand it's some times annoying that they don't have certain characters on bikes as official models, but on the other hand it's nice to convert those how you see fit. Overall character and unit customization is one of 40k's and especially one of Space Wolves' strengths so it will be really sad if for example Krom Dragongaze kit or some other kit becomes the default Wolf Lord kit with only those options available that are on the sprue.
Fortunately there are a lot of wolfy bits on the "default" sprues and even an upgrade sprue available so I don't really feel that they would drastically limit the options... but we'll see.
So, I got my arse handed to me by my friend's Nurgle Daemons. Incidentally I have usually beaten him more often than not but his current list is hard.
Basically he has TWO identical contingents:
1 Great Unclean One
2 Deamon Princes of Nurgle
1 Herald
20 Plaguebearers as bubblewrap
He also runs 20 Furies (fast) and a small group of Nurglings.
Everything in his army has 5++/5+++ so statistically about the equivalent of Storm Shields across the board and he rolls saves like a fething GOD I swear.
Bringing tough elites is not going to cut it because 8 characters throwing Smite around are just going to melt anything that comes too close. Add to that the Princes and GUOs are formidable CC combatants that blow anything I bring out of the water in melee.
Kinda out of ideas. I was thinking of going full horde mode and feed "cheap" marines to his Smites instead of Terminators, but don't know if I have enough firepower to bring enough of his army down before he touches my lines. You might think that 20 Plaguebearers and maybe even one GUO is easy to take down in a turn of shooting but man, you would be so wrong.
What would you bring if you tailored a list against that?
Weazel wrote: So, I got my arse handed to me by my friend's Nurgle Daemons. Incidentally I have usually beaten him more often than not but his current list is hard.
Basically he has TWO identical contingents:
1 Great Unclean One
2 Deamon Princes of Nurgle
1 Herald
20 Plaguebearers as bubblewrap
He also runs 20 Furies (fast) and a small group of Nurglings.
Everything in his army has 5++/5+++ so statistically about the equivalent of Storm Shields across the board and he rolls saves like a fething GOD I swear.
Bringing tough elites is not going to cut it because 8 characters throwing Smite around are just going to melt anything that comes too close. Add to that the Princes and GUOs are formidable CC combatants that blow anything I bring out of the water in melee.
Kinda out of ideas. I was thinking of going full horde mode and feed "cheap" marines to his Smites instead of Terminators, but don't know if I have enough firepower to bring enough of his army down before he touches my lines. You might think that 20 Plaguebearers and maybe even one GUO is easy to take down in a turn of shooting but man, you would be so wrong.
What would you bring if you tailored a list against that?
Grab some black spray paint and a pot of silver - Deathwatch Wolves.
Patrol of Kill team and Bikers would be my suggestion.
Spray those Daemons with SIAmmo to wound any non vehicle on a 2+. He likes to roll saves? Make him roll more.
Well if you would have to do it purely SW style? I have almost anything available that's in the SW index outside of Wulfen.
Nurgle are mid-ranged and slow in comparison to other Chaos armies, the more you can keep him travelling around for priority targets the less damage he can actually do.
My option would be WGBLs and Wolf Scouts to pop up in different directions taking his back and flanks and harassing his characters with Sniper rounds re-rolling to wounds, even if you can't get his back directly just forcing him to focus in different directions should minimise his ability to attack as effectively.
Deck the WGBLs out for melee to face the furies, TDA and claws would be my suggestion.
No idea about your current list or what might work better for you but I know mid-ranged armies don't like travel time.
Well my plan is to bring as much dakka I can and sit back and try to whittle him down while he slogs along the board and hope that is enough before he hits my lines. Taking a lot of dakka means there aren't too many points left to spend on anything that can take a real beating in CC...
Currently sitting at 8 Lascannons, 10 Missile launchers, 5 Assault Cannons, 2 heavy flamers, 3 plasmaguns and 48 Boltguns. Trying to incorporate rerolling of ones both hitting and wounding as much as possible.
I don't have any autocannon dreads and word is they are not in the newest SM codex so they are slowly being phased out I suppose. So not a good time to buy new ones.
The Grey Hunters are a screen to eat some Smite and if some are still left standing maybe catch a charge as well. Their "oomph" is secondary in this list. Besides I would have to figure out where to steal the points. Also I have a rep of killing my own guys with overcharged plasma even with rerolls, so I don't really like overcharging them for the very same reason. Not bad suggestions though, thanks.
jcd386 wrote: If you don't want to use the grey hunters efficiently, i would take something cheaper, so i guess blood claws? That being said i think it's a mistake to pay 250ish points on fairly useless units when you could pay 350ish for really good ones.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the dreads, you can use the index version instead of the codex one per GW.
Idk, 3 combi plasma for the GH and what else? Powerweapons and AP values mean next to nothing against daemons... And what would you drop out of the list to put some meat on the GH?
Weazel wrote: Everything in his army has 5++/5+++ so statistically about the equivalent of Storm Shields across the board and he rolls saves like a fething GOD I swear.
It comes out to be a 55.55% chance of saving. He will save 1/3 of the wounds. Then out of the 2/3 of the wounds that get through, he will save 1/3 of those.
The forumula winds up looking like this.... (2/3 failed save) * (2/3 failed DR) = 4/9 = ~44.444 chance of failed save.
It's damn annoying. I know. It's why I play this...as my main army.
So what do I hate?
* Stuff that has lots of attacks. 30 plaguebearers don't care about a 5 lychguard. On average that kind of a unit will do this...
(1/2 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (2/3 failed FNP) = 4/27 Those 10 attacks the lynchguard get will kill between 1 and 2 plaguebearers.
Now, in comparison harlequins are a PITA because of the number of attacks they get. Bezerkers are just downright killy
* Lots of bodies. My army has enough smite to handle the current meta well. Someone shoves Magnus down my throat, and I light him up with 9 smites. When I face 120 conscripts I say ... "Well...crap"
* Melta into my GUO. Any weapons that do multiple damage really cause me pain, as the DR is much less effective. Having my GUO hit by a LC or ML is a big bummer.
* Fast moving armies. Just can't get to them. I played a DE player last night who was a real pain as he just sat back and shot me.
What are my tricks?
* I'll trick you into sitting on the other side of the board and shooting me. I don't care if you are killing 8 point plauge bearers. You won't kill enough to wipe them off an objective, and I'll win the game.
* I'll trick you into wasting your shots on the wrong targets. My Plague drones are there as a distraction to force you to look at them while I camp objectives to win.
How to beat me?
* Don't be afraid to advance. Who cares if you are in combat with 30 plague bearers. They are pillowfighting.
* Bring some psykers. A few deny's can really tip the balance
* Bring multi-wound weapons. Even powerfists can be a pain. 2 wound weapons are the worst, like autocannons.
Thanks, this was helpful. Granted I had made some of these conclusions myself already.
About psykers, bringing 2 Rune priests cost a lot of point for just two measly denies, and their spells are downright useless against the particular list I'm facing. Cover save against an army that does not shoot? Yeah. Or -1 to hit.. well very very situational and again, he does not shoot at all... Finally Jaws is only really usable against Plaguebearers, everything else has a movement value of 8" or more, so it is more or less wasted on 8 pt models. So you're basically left with 2 Smites. And to be honest when you're smiting you should go full ham. I'd rather use the points to get 5 ML/LC to do some work.
More Dakka wrote: Anyone tried the TDAWGPL in a squad of Long Fangs?
I'm debating taking one either barebones as a tank, or spending the 80+ pts to run the Cyclone ML in a ML squad.
What loadouts are people running their LFs with btw? I'm liking 5x LC, or 5x ML, sacrificing a bit of hitting power for the versatility of horde killing. Then Plasma would be a good compromise between those 2 as well, especially with the re-rolls of 1's
Depends. I really like LCs if you know you're facing tanks and especially T8. Missiles are versatile but pay through the nose if you're facing the aforementioned T8. Depends how many bolters you bring whether those frag missiles are necessary. Against horde lists ML is obviously better hands down. If you're facing Primaris or Terminators Plasma Cannons can really shine especially since you have a natural reroll of 1's.
2017/07/28 19:27:38
Subject: Re:Owoo!! Space Wolf Tactica: 8th Edition.
BaconCatBug wrote: Drop Pod Long Fangs are not worth it anymore, right? I'd be better off just taking Tempestus Scions with Plasma?
IMO no way. 100pts tax for the pod and with 4-5 MM you're just going to hit twice or maybe thrice (on 4+), wound once or twice and cause maybe 4-5 damage on average per wound with the reroll. And they are going to get wiped out the next turn guaranteed. That's just too little work done for 300 pts. MAYBE if you drop 1-2 packs of terminators with them as a screen and as an even bigger threat... but that's not a cheap little detachment any more.
I might suggest dropping 5 cheap HB guys on a remote objective.. they're not threatening enough to warrant priority elimination but you are still going to have to commit some firepower to remove them. And they can still dish out 15 S5 AP-1 shots so not completely useless either.
So the Wolves haven't really been rocking the tournament scene and our W/L ratio is in a slow but steady decline in the dakka results thread...
Anyone with more games under their belt have a good idea what the new SW "meta" is? What has performed well and what is a no-go? Or are we internally balanced but just behind the curve?
How do you use Björn efficiently? He's rather expensive and unless you're going into melee to seriously wreck face I don't see him doing enough damage to earn his place. And in melee he is vulnerable... if you are seriously camping midfield to spread that reroll 1's around he becomes better obviously.
