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2017/06/28 18:39:04
Subject: Can CSM Daemons benefit from Daemon Heralds?
p10 Chaos Index : <Mark of Chaos>
..you must nominate which Mark of Chaos that the unit has. You then simply replace the <Mark of Chaos> keyword in every instance on that unit's datasheet with one of the following : Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh.
Example of Warp Talons with a <Mark of Chaos> of Tzeentch
Faction Keywords : Chaos, Tzeentch, Heretic Astartes, <Legion>
Keywords : Infantry, Daemon, Jump Pack, Fly, Warp Talons
p82 Chaos Index : Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeenth : Add 1 to the Strength characteristic of friendly Tzeentch Daemon units within 6" of one or more models with this ability.
p175 BRB : Keywords
All datasheets have a list of keywords, sometimes seperated into Faction keywords and other keywords. The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same.
Summary
It seems pretty clear to me that CSM Warp Talons of Tzeentch can benefit from the Herald of Tzeentch ability. The example unit has both the keyword Daemon and Tzeentch. All keywords are functionally the same.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 19:59:25
2017/06/28 18:56:12
Subject: Re:Can CSM Daemons benefit from Daemon Heralds?
The only requirement is that the unit the Herald is near has both the <Daemon> keyword and the corresponding alignment keyword, in your example <Tzeentch>
Note, of course that this applies to the S characteristic of the model and so will have no affect on weapon profiles with fixed numbers (although S:user weapons would be affected)
Its how I buff my DG Units that are no longer viable as DG units. My Maulerfiend gets buffed by a Daemon Prince of Nurgle. Could do the same thing with a Herald of Nurgle.
10k CSM
1.5k Thousand Sons
2k Death Guard
3k Tau
3k Daemons(Tzeentch and Nurgle)
2017/06/28 22:48:53
Subject: Can CSM Daemons benefit from Daemon Heralds?
Factions do not interact with keywords not meant for their faction.
This is no different then naming an IG regiment BLOOD ANGELS. <Mark of Chaos> is a unique faction keyword not a chaos daemons faction keyword.
The chaos herads have similar wording to space marine captains in the faq ruling.
Right from GW, "In the example above, ‘Blood Angels’ is a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes and ‘Death Guard’ is a Legion of the Heretic Astartes – neither of which are Regiments of the Astra Militarum."
Now replace it for chaos: "In the example above, ‘Tzeench Daemon’ is a faction of Chaos daemons and 'Nurgle Daemon' is a faction of chaos daemon – neither of which are marks of chaos of the Heretic Astartes."
So I have a really hard time believing Imperial scum are going to let us have our broken as hell cross army rules when no one else does. (Does no one remember how dumb epidemius lists were in fifth?)
2017/06/28 23:43:47
Subject: Can CSM Daemons benefit from Daemon Heralds?
sfshilo wrote: Now replace it for chaos: "In the example above, ‘Tzeench Daemon’ is a faction of Chaos daemons and 'Nurgle Daemon' is a faction of chaos daemon – neither of which are marks of chaos of the Heretic Astartes."
There's is no Faction Keyword that is "X Daemon", the god name and Daemon are separate Faction Keywords.
Mark of Chaos tells you to replace <Mark of Chaos> with the god name Faction Keyword whilst there is no similar but different style replacement mechanism like your example.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 23:49:30
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2017/06/29 00:00:16
Subject: Can CSM Daemons benefit from Daemon Heralds?
sfshilo wrote: Now replace it for chaos: "In the example above, ‘Tzeench Daemon’ is a faction of Chaos daemons and 'Nurgle Daemon' is a faction of chaos daemon – neither of which are marks of chaos of the Heretic Astartes."
There's is no Faction Keyword that is "X Daemon", the god name and Daemon are separate Faction Keywords.
Mark of Chaos tells you to replace <Mark of Chaos> with the god name Faction Keyword whilst there is no similar but different style replacement mechanism like your example.
I agree with this thought process. The reason they choice to reference the regiments/legions is because they wanted to squash the bug of using captains helping guard and vice versa. The marks specifically say what 4 things they can be so they are the same for all intents and purposes as the keywords for the daemons. If you want to argue that <mark of chaos> set to Tzeentch is different than Pink Horrors Tzeentch keyword, how do you know the Pink Horrors aren't like Rubrics with their "mark" already set and instead is <daemon alignment> set to Tzeentch.
Also gamewise, the marks being the same as the daemons lets you do the following armies that are all 100% fluffy (unlike Space Marines buffing the mechanicus/Guard/assassins and so on, they might fight together, but not train together):
Chaos
Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Daemons
Tzeentch (marines + daemons)
Thousand Sons (1k sons only with nothing else besides what's on their list.
This allows you to have your Daemonkin armies as well as solely Daemons/Marines.
2017/06/29 01:26:50
Subject: Can CSM Daemons benefit from Daemon Heralds?
sfshilo wrote: Factions do not interact with keywords not meant for their faction.
This is no different then naming an IG regiment BLOOD ANGELS. <Mark of Chaos> is a unique faction keyword not a chaos daemons faction keyword.
Respectfully, I disagree.
However, <Mark of Chaos> is not the same. In the snippet below you see the FAQ. You are not choosing the keyword to be replaced. You nominate which Mark of Chaos the unit has.
You might argue that the wording is split hairs by RAW, but the RAI of the FAQ is clear -- it's to prevent people from choosing a <Legion> that would give the units benefits not otherwise allowed to the unit. It clearly says that you cannot have your AM Regiment named 'Blood Angels' to gain the perks of the BA characters.
That applies to the CSM as well. You cannot have a warp talon with a Mark of Chaos as Nurgle and a <Legion> of Tzeentch gain perks from both heralds. Only the Nurgle herald would apply in this case.
Spoiler:
Q: If I can choose a keyword for a unit, such as
<Regiment> for Astra Militarum, could I choose
that keyword to be, for example ‘Blood Angels’ or
‘Death Guard’?
A: No.
In the example above, ‘Blood Angels’ is a Chapter of the Adeptus
Astartes and ‘Death Guard’ is a Legion of the Heretic Astartes
– neither of which are Regiments of the Astra Militarum.
Q: If I create an Astra Militarum Regiment of my own
and name them, for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’,
and I then also create an Adeptus Astartes Chapter of
my own choosing, and also call them the ‘Emperor’s
Finest’, do the abilities that work on the <Regiment>
and/or <Chapter> keywords now work on both the
Astra Militarum and Adeptus Astartes units?
A: No.
The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own
creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable
players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect
what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions
on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment
Azoqu wrote: This allows you to have your Daemonkin armies as well as solely Daemons/Marines.
This.
I think this was intentional to give some synergy to the chaos forces and something to those people who wanted to run Khorne Daemonkin.
sfshilo wrote: I have a really hard time believing Imperial scum are going to let us have our broken as hell cross army rules when no one else does. (Does no one remember how dumb epidemius lists were in fifth?)
They don't have a choice It's RAW and RAI.
Honestly, I don't think many people are going to give you to much crap about this. The units buffed by this rule are generally considered subpar by CSM players. There are not many people rushing out to grab possessed, for example.
You might see some people throwing together a maulerfiend army supported by the tallymaster (which is one of my future projects) but I don't think it will be common. Right now the power players are busy building AM lists full of Scions and Taurox Primes.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2017/06/29 01:37:45
It's