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So who is on top, in the middle, being gang RA++D? Their have been a few tourneys, and I have played at least 20 games, What are you speculations on who the 3 most dominate, and 3 most dominated are? Here's mine.

Top 3

1. Astra Militarum
They get a hell of a lot of artillery, hordes, dirt ass cheap. it just seems like this edition is built for these guys.

2. Adeptus Astartes. Soooooo many tricks now that they have a new codex, and a Primarch.

3. Asuryani. They will always have Eldar in the top 3 IMDAO.

4. Honorable mention. Genestealer Cults. So hot right now!


Worst....

1. Knights! Damn! how the mighty have fallen.

2. Orks. For now. I just dont think Ork players have adjusted to the meta yet and realized they have good stuff. Next month I expect them to be way higher on the scale.

3. Adeptus Mechanicus. A lot of fancy tricks that never really hit the mark.

I'm just a dude bringing up a topic. I have no pretense of being right. Just want to open up the floodgates of opinion. Lemme know what you guys think are top 3/ bottom 3.

On your SM point - having a Primarch isn't the issue. Thousand Sons have that. The issue is that Guilliman is either too cheap, or too powerful. I'd rather have his points increased personally, as a fix.

Again, I don't think SM are that powerful, not tier 1. They have units which certainly do make a massive impact (Guilliman, Stormraven), but aside from those two, I can't really list a massively OP unit. Again, chapter tactics are certainly good, but enough to take them up a whole tier? I'm not sure.

Otherwise, I'd stick my vote in for Necrons (morale resistance and sheer durability), Guard (including Scions), and Tyranids. I think that Tyranids do have some very solid gameplay now, and I'd say it's worthy of Tier 1.

My lowest three? Orks, maybe Tau? Dark Eldar perhaps? If I'm being pedantic, I'd count the Aeronautica faction, because it literally has two units (Valkyrie and Officer of the Fleet).

oddworx wrote:
2. Orks. For now. I just dont think Ork players have adjusted to the meta yet and realized they have good stuff. Next month I expect them to be way higher on the scale.

I don't want to be a dick, so I'll ask - "like what?"

Orks only have two good units; Boyz, and Stormboyz.

They simply can't deal with armor of any kind, they have 0 shooting (literally none; every other faction now has buckets of dice AND better BS+stats; 5+/6+ moving pre-modifiers (-1 to hit = can't shoot at ALL (see: air units)) doesn't cut it with the current ranged weapons/prices), their vehicles are crap (Battlewagon is a land raider with no guns, which sounds ok, but; Mobile Fortress doesn't even work on the units inside), their trukks are simply too expensive for what they are, and they have no anti-air (couple this with 0 shooting, and it just gets worse). They have a 6+ save, with NO options to increase it - and AP-X weapons abound this edition. You won't get a save outside the small KFF bubble, period (thank Gork and Mork we at least have THIS).

Quite frankly, every unit in the codex is massively overpriced, and under powered. They lack options, as well as effectiveness.

Orks only have 1 strategy this edition - Green Tide. Bring Boyz; if you bring anything else (including non-standard Boyz (Stormboyz excluded)), you lose.

You can't fight armor, you can't fight at range - you can't even fight the flier spam that around. The best you can do is get into melee (if you survive multiple shooting phases+overwatch), and hope you have enough boyz+luck left to make it through to the other side.

Sure, you think "Melee, Horde" when you think of Orkz; but that's literally all they can do this edition. They've never been more one-dimensional. Nothing else is even remotely viable in a competitive (or realistic) sense. Mathhammer proves this point, simple comparisons prove this point, and the cumulative experience of the Ork Tactics thread proves this as well.

I don't want my army to be one-dimensional; and what's worse, they were better (stronger and more variety) back with their 3rd codex.

So, simply - "like what?".

Boyz. That's the answer. You said it. Its all about Boys. a support unit here, or there. But Boyz. Done

 oddworx wrote:
Boyz. That's the answer. You said it. Its all about Boys. a support unit here, or there. But Boyz. Done

So basically, "they have good stuff" = they have one single unit.

Great army design there, this makes me want to play 40k even more.

Look - Orks have always had the short end of the stick, and still, I've stuck with them because they were hilarious - but gone are all the fun rules, gone are all the pretenses of balance, gone are my reasons to care until Orks get a codex.

And even if I spam Boyz, I lose to armor (you can't even get past a Rhino wall, let alone a super heavy/knight), and the far more common units, "hard-to-hit" flyers.

Great stuff.



Edit: But, this thread isn't for my ramblings on my thoughts of Orks and balance. I got my answer to "like what?", which was simply - Boyz. I just want to be able to enjoy losing again; but it's hard when you look through the other factions and see just how crazy their rules, firepower, and options are, in every scenario. There's a difference between an uphill battle when you're slightly outmatched, and having the entire design team continue to ignore your very existence (though to be fair, Xenos has always been worse than anything Imperial, Loyalist or Traitor; if it were any other way, it wouldn't be 40k).

Best army is Astra Militarum, worst is Necrons. There are a couple more outliers but none as extreme as them I think.

I think you are missing out on the nuances of your army list. I stand by my statement. In 1 month from now Orks will be at least middle of the heap, if not better. Time will tell. Meanwhile I suggest you start reading your list harder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:
Best army is Astra Militarum, worst is Necrons. There are a couple more outliers but none as extreme as them I think.

I haven't played the Crons yet, but it looks like they are having a hard time.

 oddworx wrote:
I think you are missing out on the nuances of your army list. I stand by my statement. In 1 month from now Orks will be at least middle of the heap, if not better. Time will tell. Meanwhile I suggest you start reading your list harder.

Again, how?

Until a codex comes out, nothing will have changed in the Index.

It's not a difficult exercise to work out which units are good, which units are bad, and which ones are situational - and how all of this is effected by the opponents army, and competitive trends/results.

And it's not like it's one person rambling their opinions on which are good, and which are bad - it's the innumerable players, who have actual field experience, and brains which they can use to math, calculate, and playtest.

So now I get to be a dick and ask:

1. Do you play Orks?
2. What, exactly, do you think current Ork/tournament players are doing wrong with their lists and strategies?
3. Do you think the Ork codex is actually balanced, internally and externally?
4. Do you think the Ork codex is better than at least half (equating to them being "middle of the pack") of the other Index armies?
5. Do you think your thoughts and opinions are more accurate than the countless other boyz out there playing the army day in and day out, as well as those who are mathhammering/conceptualizing gameplay/matchups?
5.2 If so, what makes you think that you're more accurate with your thoughts and opinions than the rest?

I was willing to let it rest at "Boyz", but, your statements to now do not contradict or prove wrong any of my concerns/thoughts about the current state of the Ork army, as well as the problems (internal and external) that are currently presenting themselves.

So, again, what are Ork players currently doing wrong? What are they overlooking? What secret tech has yet to be discovered?

Yaaaaaa.. So you really think I should do an Ork list review? Ok, no problem. I will just ask my play for paint friend who went 4-1-1 at BAO to do it. Again, I dont have to know know the nuances of your army. That's your job. Give me a day and I will ask him how to tell you how to run your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
aaaaaaand he is quiet. Now you can safely state your opinions!

I wouldn't put Craftworld Eldar anywhere near the top, all they've got going for them is durability in Wave Serpants and Wraith units, all of their infantry is either ridiculously short ranged, over costed or both. You pretty much have to run them as Ynnari to get anywhere, both Harlequins and Drukhari are better at this point.

I would agree with your logic of putting orks in the bottom tier. I just don't understand the idea that they might move up in a month after which there will be 2 to 3 more codexes in the picture.

I actually would be interested in anyone that posted 4-1-1 using orks at BAO

To all of those people saying orks only have boyz..uhh..I think you forgot a few pretty strong units. Mek Gunz and Warbikerz I've had insane success with. Heck, if you're not opposed to FW models, bring grot mega tanks too. Grot tanks themselves are really hit or miss, but are GREAT distractions for not too much. People think they are actually as strong as tanks and kill them off. Grot mega tanks however can bring insane weaponry to the table (like 7 kustom mega blastas or an array of grotzookas) and take out hordes of marines or even terminators.

I've also heard good things about warbuggies and other fast attack units. So if Orks are bottom tier than everything else has to be pretty broken. Orks sit in a pretty okay place considering they don't have a codex yet.

There were two Ork lists high up in the rankings from what I can recall. One list with somewhere around 120 stormboyz and another list which included a variety of units.

Considering their well attended, and worst tournament showing ever at BAO, necrons sit firmly in the bottom tier.

How on earth do you have a "tier list" when there is just ONE GODAMN CODEX!?

The indcies are NOT codcies, they are NOT relevant to any tier list that would come up because as we've seen-they are incomplete and missing army-wide rules, beyond the fact "chapter tactics" are powerful enough to make or break armies.

1. IG
2. Daemons
3. Harlequins
4. Ynnari
5. Space marines
6. Dark Eldar
7. Tau
8. Choas
8. Ad MEch
9. Necrons
10. Tyranids
11. Orks

Not sure where Imperial Knights fall but I think they probably are having a hard time dealing with the meta which is basically to spam las cannons and EQ.

 oddworx wrote:
Yaaaaaa.. So you really think I should do an Ork list review? Ok, no problem. I will just ask my play for paint friend who went 4-1-1 at BAO to do it. Again, I dont have to know know the nuances of your army. That's your job. Give me a day and I will ask him how to tell you how to run your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
aaaaaaand he is quiet. Now you can safely state your opinions!

If you mean Michael Fox's list, it was hardly earth shattering since 1/4 of his points were tied up in a Forgeworld model.

I love Forgeworld, I have a shelf of their stuff, I use it in games all the time, but I'm just pointing out that his army wasn't particularly special, he played it well in his matchups, but players in general never see the Squiggoth and they either underestimated it or spent too much time trying to kill it. He replaces that 400 pts with any other thing in the index, he doesn't do as well. It was a smart choice, it was fun to watch, but it's reality.

I see two main ork List emerging:

One is the Ork boyz horde. (I'll talk Boyz hordes, but Stormboyz hordes are a thing too, same principle, just faster and more reliably in combat sooner) I've had great success with this one, flooding the board with boyz and watching guys simply be unable to shift the huge blobs slamming into them and being jumped all around by my wierdboy. This style of play is fun the first time and tedious the 44th. I prefer to not top 90 boyz in a list now because I can't stand how long it can take to resolve things with 240+ boyz. But it works and it works well. It suffers heavily when the other army is hurricane bolter and assault cannon heavy, but many other melee armies can't shift enough guys out of a blob of 30 in one turn to survive when another blob slams into the fight the next turn. Best thing I've managed to do with regularity is surround rhinos and other transports with 80-90 guys and have the guys inside unable to disembark when I finally pop them. Depending on where you go for number of boyz, you can be left with precious few backup options, and if the enemy is good at anti-horde it can go sideways quick. My personal opinion is that you win a lot of these matches not because you are good or your army is good or their army is bad, its just numbers. That doesn't feel fun sometimes.

Second list I see is the "But Orks can Shoot list". Mek guns, tankbustas (easily one of the best units in the ork index, personal favorite of mine and I've been scrounging the bitz box making new guys the last couple weeks), Flash Gits, Lootas, Big Guns. These list require a KFF somewhere, a mek or two for repairs and some hot ass dice. When it works, it's a thing to behold. (Almost like an Imperial Gunline) You generally need a decoy (I use a Morkanaut, don't own a squiggoth, but I love the model and it's been popping up all over lately, maybe it's time), but you suffer really bad to flyers generally.

The real problems with the Ork index is: Almost all the fast attack options (except stormboyz) are hot, hot, super hot, flaming garbage. I have so many custom built buggies and deffkoptas and as much as I want them to be good, they aren't. Not for the cost. Every time I play Speedfreaks style I get a huge dump leveled on me. Many of the options don't work well together, or require a large number of other units to make work and fall apart real quick (Tankbustas are great, tankbustas not in a Battlewagon or a trukk are hot garbage), Lootas and Flash Gits can work well, with a KFF nearby. (With a KFF nearby can be said of anything for orks). All the walker options are OK, but not blowing your socks off. My morkanaut to date has taken more wounds off himself than other units by shooting Mega Kannons at them (he also has a mek on a leash for heals), I am almost certain of it. I love kanz and DeffDreads, but then again, nothing reliable. I've had Kanz MVP a match and I've had kanz die to chaff units. So in the end, orks are ok. Several other armies have comparable squabbles I think and may be in worst places, but it's not just "Read your book and figure out new tactics" the index is where it is. There aren't any secrets "competitively" in there.

Sorry, I got off topic, but your response was silly. 3 ork list in the top 38 at BAO I believe...not near any spreadsheets so going off memory and 2 had Squiggoths? So cool, everyone will read their index and go buy that one forgeworld model. Mike did great, good on him, he didn't validate or invalidate any ork players squabbles.

I DIGRESS!

Tier Right now:

1) Imperial Guard. Period. Nothing to melee if nothing is left alive turn 2. I think this has everything to do with how durable vehicles are and how easy they can get buffs and bubblewrap. I have no hate for conscripts, never seen them reliably played as anything but bubble wrap. Have faced a 400 man blob of them once (Well lots of 50 man blobs), if I did have a quibble, they should roll for orders or something, they are not hardened troops, but thems the breaks. Imperial Guard rocking on top right now.

2) Space Marines. That is a lot of choices, a lot of flexibility and out of all the factions with some tactics to learn over the next few months. These guys right here. between chapter tactics and a couple of the new Super Space Marine units that being undervalued, there will be some cool stuff going on here.

3) Space Elfs. Tough call here, but I think they have tools, good rules and good units. I really want to lump in a well built Harlequin and Ynnari army because they are all space elfs, but I like most of the Space Elf stuff right now, craftworlds are getting hosed but hey, take that scatter lasers.

honorable mention: Genestealers. First time one popped up and rolled well and was in my grill turn 1. I giggled. They can take Imperial Guard crap plus genestealers? Seems fair. Don't know how they will fair in the long run but they got some hotness to them.

The Dumpster (In nor real order of rank, the dumpster is a place you exist in, wallowing in filth)

Necrons. They have some good stuff about them, and I have lost games to them. I just don't see a lot there that inspires me or fills me with dread. once you figure out the keys to their list, they are easy to dismantle. Our local "TFG" had a really big primed necron force and its vanished recently so based on that a lone I see them as bad.

Craftworld Space Elves. Ok a cop out since I think other version of them are so good, but craftworld eldar aren't rocking it in any way I've seen. The most dedicated Eldar player I know who has a whole custom craftworld and head-canon and like 16k pts in units, won a few games early in 8th and is on a losing streak right now that has put him on suicide watch.

Deathwatch. Are these guys a faction? Christ, so many Deathwatch armies popped up at the end of 7th. Now? As the beatings continue the number of converted Space Marine armies is increasing. Some of the best, most fun unit composition in the game, but it turns out a unit with a combat knife, a thunderhammer, a chainsword, a guy armed with an accordian, a bolt pistol and a wiffle ball bat looks great on the table and bounces off everything it hits.

1. Imperium
2. Chaos
3. Tyranids
4. Eldar
5. Tau
6. Orks
7. Necrons

There is no "IG, SM, GK"; there is only Zuul... I mean Imperium

Edit, altho this doesn't seem like it accurately displays powerful levels

Imperium 10
Chaos 7
Tyranids 5
Eldar 4.5
Tau 4
Orks 3.5
Necrons 3

 BoomWolf wrote:
How on earth do you have a "tier list" when there is just ONE GODAMN CODEX!?

The indcies are NOT codcies, they are NOT relevant to any tier list that would come up because as we've seen-they are incomplete and missing army-wide rules, beyond the fact "chapter tactics" are powerful enough to make or break armies.

er because Codex Blessed play against Indices armies so of course you compare them.

If the Codex Blessed are just better then thats a problem with the codex system.

Part of the problem with this is how rapid fire the codices are coming. CSM were fairly close to the bottom, but the new codex could fix that. SM were fairly solid, but the stormraven nerf plus new codex could've pushed them up or down. That's without factoring in mixed factions, imperium as a whole is currently much stronger than any single army within it.

Personally, I'd say adeptus ministorum/SoB is fairly strong, particularly if you look at all round solid options not just the single most powerful/cheesiest build.

Overall, I'd say imperium is the strongest faction, followed by chaos if FW is allowed. Imperium should speak for itself, mixing the best characters (RG, Celestine) with strong units from IG/SoB/SM does wonders. Demons with R&H works similarly well, though I'm not sure how much CSM can contribute.

To answer the thread title: ENOPE.

But then again I'm never ready for such a discussion, since mob mentality usually takes over and it all boils down to "who has the least defenders and who have the most salty people".

 oddworx wrote:
Yaaaaaa.. So you really think I should do an Ork list review? Ok, no problem. I will just ask my play for paint friend who went 4-1-1 at BAO to do it. Again, I dont have to know know the nuances of your army. That's your job. Give me a day and I will ask him how to tell you how to run your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
aaaaaaand he is quiet. Now you can safely state your opinions!

So you have 1 friend who did well with orkz and that out balances everyone else who has a different opinion? Have you ever heard the term Anecdotal?

Orkz have only a handful of units worth taking. Ghaz, Warboss, Weirdboy, Boyz, Stormboyz. That is about it.

ALL ork walkers are garbage and not worth taking, which is really really sad for me because I own 15 of them.
ALL Ork transports are garbage. Trukk is about 50% over priced and the Wagon is too expensive and fragile. None of its weapons are worth taking except the deff Rolla.

ALL Ork shooting is garbage. Mek Gunz went up in price dramatically, lost durability and lost dakka. Big Gunz are in the same boat. Shoota boyz got cheaper but they aren't any better (My opinion they are worse) then regular boyz. Flashgitz are still over priced, lack range, lack durability and lack any kind of synergy with the rest of the Ork list. Lootas are over priced and extremely fragile, they basically require a Trukk to be useful so tack on another 80pts to their cost. Tank bustas are only useful because we lack any kind of ranged support to deal with vehicles. They are over priced, no durability and again, require a trukk to function.

Our Fast attack slot is a joke. Besides Stormboyz everything else in the index could be deleted which is again a travesty because I have 1 Dakkajet, 6 Deff Koptas and 36 Warbikers.

Kommandos are a nice distraction unit but they again are over priced, lack durability and synergy with the rest of the list. Worse, since Burnas are functionally useless in the shooting phase they are become over priced Power Swords.

Meganobz are ridiculously over priced and have no purpose anymore. unless you pay out the nose for KillSaws they cant even do damage to a vehicle reliably. And against a horde of infantry they get slaughtered. Vs MEQs they do alright but Boyz are significantly better. They have no Invuln save and even with 3 wounds they die ridiculously quick.

I mean, I am glad your one friend did well in the tournament but that doesn't change the fact that realistically theres only a couple of units in the index worth taking in a competitive list and those units can not handle enemies who are anti-horde.


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to get on point I would say Xenomancer had it right

1. IG
2. Daemons
3. Harlequins
4. Ynnari
5. Space marines
6. Dark Eldar
7. Tau
8. Choas
8. Ad MEch
9. Necrons
10. Tyranids
11. Orks

1. Imperium
2. Aeldari
3. Chaos
4. The rest of the Xenos :(

Claiming SM are top 3? That's utterly laughable. There is no tournament data to support this claim.

In reality it is:

1. Astra Militarum
<huge drop off>
2. Tau
3. Genestealer Cults

with bottom 3 being: Necrons, Grey Knights, and Mechanicus

Tau the second most powerfull one? What? They only compete Commander spam and even then, they aren't that powerfull.
Guilliman+Celestine were in many of the higher ranking lists in the recent big tournaments, not Tau.
Plus, curiosity, what lists are winning for Genestealers? I assume Genestealer spam? by how cheap they are.

 Galas wrote:
Tau the second most powerfull one? What? They only compete Commander spam and even then, they aren't that powerfull.
Guilliman+Celestine were in many of the higher ranking lists in the recent big tournaments, not Tau.
Plus, curiosity, what lists are winning for Genestealers? I assume Genestealer spam? by how cheap they are.

Tau nearly won the BAO and was at the final table, with like 6 Commanders. Their overall winrate across all Tau players was over 60%.

The highest Ultramarines place in the BAO was 61. It is an absolute fabrication that Guilliman is doing well in tournaments. He did ok in the first GT, and is featured in Ravenspam lists, but that's dead.

Celestine is total cheese, and deserves to have her price literally doubled.

Tau are consistently finishing very high. You might not like the playstyle but it's true.

FLG have a meta post up, has the W/L ratios etc. Interesting read.

Knights are the strongest faction by far, followed by Chaos.

Necrons are the worst major faction, only Deathwatch and Deathguard have worse W/L ratios. Pretty much follows what is already the forum's here (in regards to the worst)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ct-6BTRhNXx46dCxN9f7YxaARRhkUp5Hw0Rypcv3JHs/edit#gid=1657120584

Thats the link.

 Klowny wrote:
FLG have a meta post up, has the W/L ratios etc. Interesting read.

Knights are the strongest faction by far, followed by Chaos.

Necrons are the worst major faction, only Deathwatch and Deathguard have worse W/L ratios. Pretty much follows what is already the forum's here (in regards to the worst)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ct-6BTRhNXx46dCxN9f7YxaARRhkUp5Hw0Rypcv3JHs/edit#gid=1657120584

Thats the link.

This includes data prior to ravenspam nerf, as well.

Dark Eldar are absolutely in the top tier!

 Klowny wrote:
FLG have a meta post up, has the W/L ratios etc. Interesting read.

Knights are the strongest faction by far, followed by Chaos.

Necrons are the worst major faction, only Deathwatch and Deathguard have worse W/L ratios. Pretty much follows what is already the forum's here (in regards to the worst)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ct-6BTRhNXx46dCxN9f7YxaARRhkUp5Hw0Rypcv3JHs/edit#gid=1657120584

Thats the link.

Asuryani isn't even on that list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oddworx wrote:

3. Asuryani. They will always have Eldar in the top 3 IMDAO.

Top Asuryani was 56th at BAO, so no. Worse than Necrons and Deathwatch.