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I feel that every army is getting stronger and stronger with 8th edition...meanwhile my Iron Hands are getting weaker and weaker...will there be a break? or should I play another army? Help or advice please.

Whats your list? What lists are you playing against?
You can't just walk into a doctors office and yell "I FEEL SICK MAKE ME FEEL BETTER" and expect them to be able to help.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Whats your list? What lists are you playing against?
You can't just walk into a doctors office and yell "I FEEL SICK MAKE ME FEEL BETTER" and expect them to be able to help.

That is fair...here you go (I tend to play armies that have durable units that can put out high ranged damage):

*Chapter Selection*: Iron Hands

+ HQ +

Captain: Bolt pistol, Power fist

Techmarine: Bolt pistol, Power axe, Servo-arm, The Axe of Medusa

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad
. 7x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad
. 7x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad
. 7x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Contemptor Dreadnought: Combi-bolter, Dreadnought combat weapon, Kheres pattern assault cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment -1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

+ Heavy Support +

Basilisks
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber

++ Total: [103 PL, 1999pts] ++

Wait, that's 2000 points? That seems incredibly small for 2k...I don't have the new Marine codex on hand, but you're sitting around 1100 or so points before the Basiliks.

Plus, as it is, despite you saying you like a lot of shooting and firepower, you really don't. 2 Basilisks and a handful of plasma guns and heavy bolters is not a firepower list.

Well, what would be your recommendation for a change to the list.....or change of army to more fit my playstyle?

- my list was made for me by a friend (since I am not good at this thing) and my army was selected because Space Marines are supposed to be new gamer friendly.

As as a sidenote, when I play games where I am one character I tend to play Archers/Ranger characters.

Those two Basilisks (and the accompanying -1CP) are a bizarre choice. What's the thinking there? Are they just the models you have available?

Also, 3 full, 10 man tactical squads with all the toys isn't a super competitive style of list. They're nice and fluffy and fun in casual games but...

Well, first of all, you need to stop relying on others to write your lists for you. Get a codex, read it and figure it out. Because right now your "2000" point list is somewhere around 1500 by my lights. All because you are letting someone else do the work for you.

Also, by reading that codex, you're going to get a feel for what works and what feels right for you.If you don't even know what you can take, how can you hope to build a list?

As Silentz has said, full Tactical squads are not amazing, and the choice of Basilisks is just bizarre.

That's 2000?!

Seens awfully small. Has razor prices really gone that much up?

I'm not well versed in loyalists, but this just seems... Off.

Well if you want to have more fun in the game and perform better first off you need to make your own lists. Its a huge part of the game and is absolutely required to have an understanding of your army. You cannot let other people make your lists for you. Getting their input is absolutely awesome, but you need to do it yourself.

I advise checking out the battlescribe app. Its very easy to use and really helps you create a list with its structure and the rules and point costs are right there for you to use. I find making lists to be a fun part of the game and making it just how I want it be it to be competitive or create a fun or fluffy list with a specific idea in mind. I've spent countless hours just making lists in battlescribe when I had nothing else to do.

 curran12 wrote:
Well, first of all, you need to stop relying on others to write your lists for you. Get a codex, read it and figure it out. Because right now your "2000" point list is somewhere around 1500 by my lights. All because you are letting someone else do the work for you.

Also, by reading that codex, you're going to get a feel for what works and what feels right for you.If you don't even know what you can take, how can you hope to build a list?

As Silentz has said, full Tactical squads are not amazing, and the choice of Basilisks is just bizarre.

But Space Marines - Iron Hands is still a good choice right?

They're alright, but I don't play Marines personally so I can only give you a rough idea and opinion.

For shooting, Imperial Fists may also appeal to you, as their shooting ignores cover.

100BostonFan wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Well, first of all, you need to stop relying on others to write your lists for you. Get a codex, read it and figure it out. Because right now your "2000" point list is somewhere around 1500 by my lights. All because you are letting someone else do the work for you.

Also, by reading that codex, you're going to get a feel for what works and what feels right for you.If you don't even know what you can take, how can you hope to build a list?

As Silentz has said, full Tactical squads are not amazing, and the choice of Basilisks is just bizarre.

But Space Marines - Iron Hands is still a good choice right?

Iron Hands are pretty meh in my opinion. They only get a 6+++ to ignore a wound and with how many things do multiple wounds it makes it rather unlikely to save the life of a marine. However its a little better on Primaris due to their multiple wounds. Their stratagem is solid, but their relic is a bit meh. Salamanders, Raven Guard and Fists make for great shooting armies.

Salamanders: They get so many re-rolls built in its amazing.

Fists: They ignore cover which can be huge or pointless depending on the terrain. If you use a lot of terrain they can really shine, but if you do not then pass.

Raven Guard: They are less great at shooting than the other two, but far better at taking shots back due to the -1 to hit they have when people shoot them outside of 12 inches.

Abvious troll.

This list is ~1315 points.

Trollbert wrote:
Abvious troll.

This list is ~1315 points.

Not a troll, new to this...actually in my copying and pasting skills I forgot part of the list...here is the full list (still want to know if I chose the right army before I spend the money on this):

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

*Chapter Selection*: Iron Hands

+ HQ +

Techmarine: Boltgun, Conversion beamer, Power axe

+ Heavy Support +

Predator: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

Predator: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

Whirlwind: Storm bolter, Whirlwind vengeance launcher

Whirlwind: Storm bolter, Whirlwind vengeance launcher

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

*Chapter Selection*: Iron Hands

+ HQ +

Captain: Bolt pistol, Power fist

Techmarine: Bolt pistol, Power axe, Servo-arm, The Axe of Medusa

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad
. 7x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad
. 7x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad
. 7x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Contemptor Dreadnought: Combi-bolter, Dreadnought combat weapon, Kheres pattern assault cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment -1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

+ Heavy Support +

Basilisks
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber

++ Total: [103 PL, 1999pts] ++

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that makes a hell of a difference.

Wait a minute, where did the Predators and Whirlwinds come from?

Look, I want to help you, but you gotta give us all the information here. Is this what you have? Is this what you're planning to get?

Yeah Iron Hands are fine

However that list is 1,203 points.

Also it isn't legal - cant have 2 basilisks in 1 Aux Support Detachment. Could take 2x Aux Support detachments but... don't.

Also Razorbacks can only carry 6 dudes, so your squads are going to have to split into combat squads. Or walk.

Better to stick with pure Space Marines if you can. Look at Predator tanks for fire support. Vindicators and Stalkers are OK too.

Or go heavy on the Iron Hands chapter tactic and take moar dreadnoughts.

Edit: AH! Chunk of list missing!!!

Benefit of Iron Hands is the Stratagem allowing a Vehicle to move and shoot without penalty for Heavy. Like a fancy Forge World tank that most armies can't justify using that hits on a 4+ and/or will overheat. Looking at the Laser Destroyer Vindicator as the prime example of something my Ultras would never take but my CSM will because they have the Iron Hand Stratagem too.

 curran12 wrote:
Wait a minute, where did the Predators and Whirlwinds come from?

Look, I want to help you, but you gotta give us all the information here. Is this what you have? Is this what you're planning to get?

sorry, my copy and paste skills suck...I currently have 20 space marines, a tech marine, a rhino, and a contemptor dread. But I want to make sure I got the right army before I spend any more money.

Why not proxy a few games.

I, too, am confused by the Basilisks. I can understand the desire to have LOS-ignoring fire, but why not take a detachment of IG that doesn't sacrifice command points? Take a Patrol Detachment of IG to squeeze in there.

Also, you're spending a ton of points on those Tac squads. Tacs are some of the worst melee options in the game, so why bother upgrading the sarge with a plasma pistol and power fist? Save the points and put it into something else.

Dropping those and the Basilisks should give you enough points for more vehicles or maybe a squad of Hellblasters. Throw a Lieutenant in there somewhere to re-roll some wound rolls and you'll be doing a lot more damage.

Alright then, well, a few things:

First off, the Basilisks have no place in your army. They take away valuable CP and do not do anything that you can't do with other guns. Get rid of them, period.

Second, the synergy between your squads and your transports is all off. As pointed out above, a Razorback cannot carry a whole 10 man squad, so you are choosing to leave some behind. Which is doable, but I don't think that was what you were thinking.

Third, Primaris Hellblasters supported by a Primaris Captain are very effective shooting. The Lieutenant is necessary for re-rolling 1s if you decide to overcharge the Hellblaster's plasma, which if you have that re-roll, you should be doing on anything that has more than one wound.

Next, the las-predators are a solid choice, but I'm not sure about the Whirlwinds. No knowledge of them, so I'll let a more experienced Marine player chime in.

LT gives rerolls to wound, not to hit. Captain is hits.

Marunes are a good army with tons of options and none of what you've picked is terrible even if some of the choices are odd. Reconsider running so many Tac Marines and the upgrades they have, and fix the illegal Aux detachment, but there's nothing fundamentally terrible here.

Oops, right. Updated my post.

EDIT: AHA Beaten to the Punch

If you wanna bring razorbacks, especially ones with such similar weapons, then you should basically make them all the same loadout. having one with an assault cannon (which is superior to the HBs), that lone razorback is going to be singled out. Having three Assault Cannon Razorbacks not only brings more firepower but also gives your opponent more targets to consider.

I would drop the Storm Bolters on the tanks. While they do bring some extra firepower, I find they often nickle and dime you in the points department, and those add up.

As others have said, the Basilisks have no place. On top of eating valuable CP that your army could be using, your Vengeance Whirlwinds can provide the non-LoS fire you need (albeit not as devastating in terms of strength). I would bring a third predator and whirlwind in place of the two basilisks (this way you get to use the killshot strategem with the preds too).

I don't have the codex in front of me so I don't know if this is still an option in the book, but if you can give the sergeant a combi-weapon that matches the special weapon, that would make him a lot more useful than giving him a plasma pistol and power fist. However personally I prefer keeping my tacticals as cheap as possible, as generally they should be sitting on objectives and camping on it while the other things more suited to killing do the killing.

Finally, I see you have a single Contemptor in your list. He's good, but you generally want at least two, for the same reason as the razorback above. Contemptors are the only dreadnoughts that suffer from the degrading table, so a wise opponent will probably focus most of his first turn guns at it to cripple it, which can leave a good chunk of your points useless for the match. with two or more, it presents a less obvious of a target and raises the chance that both contemptors will survive to do some damage. However, using a single one as a fire magnet for a distraction IS a valid tactic, but I just want you to be aware that he might not do anything.

First, it's impossible to say how good any one thing is going to be a year from now especially with the new rate of codex releases.

That being said, everyone else getting the same toys SM have isn't SM getting weaker it's everyone getting a more level playing field.

Second, you shouldn't choose your army off some concept of whats good because that way lies madness. it's all in constant flux. pick a army with a playstyle you enjoy and then play that because you enjoy it.

 Lance845 wrote:
First, it's impossible to say how good any one thing is going to be a year from now especially with the new rate of codex releases.

That being said, everyone else getting the same toys SM have isn't SM getting weaker it's everyone getting a more level playing field.

Second, you shouldn't choose your army off some concept of whats good because that way lies madness. it's all in constant flux. pick a army with a playstyle you enjoy and then play that because you enjoy it.

You know, that's a very common bit of advice but...eh, it's a mixed bag. I know some players who are really really bothered by someone else having something that's just objectively better than what they have, which is similar in vein, it seriously gets under their skin. See: Blood Angels vs other marines that do cc as their shtick. Those people are kept happy by army hopping, it's not my thing but some people do it.

Myself I'm a bit of a mix. If my playstyle is constantly stomped on, I can fall out of love with a faction and just focus on others until a later date when I can dust off my old army and feel like I"m on an even playing field (this is my orks right now).

What I'd do is this:

Drop all your artillery, Basilisks and everything, and restructure it into a Spearhead Detachment with a 40 pt Primaris Psyker HQ (for smite + Psychic Barrier on the tanks in an emergency), Master of Ordnance Elite choice, and 3 Basilisk tanks. Should even have points to spare.

Basilisks are way better than whirlwinds, and all you need is one more basilisk and an HQ to turn -1 CP into +1 CP, and the MOO really buffs the firepower of the basilisks.

Iron Hands are just not a good choice this edition. This is coming from an Iron Hands player. Also, ten man squads are a bad idea. If you want vehicles, keep the troops to minimum squad size and cheap.