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Now, I know it's uncouth to reveal specific points totals online, so I apologize in advance if I'm seeming a little vague. But I've been leafing through the new DW codex, hoping it might breath some life into the current force I have, and I feel thoroughly disappointed.

With the addition of Primaris marines to the mix, and the extremely narrow points difference between them and standard DW veterans, I simply cannot conceive of any reason to take the veterans over the Primaris aside from 'I'm a hardcore fluffy list and I don't care if I severely handicap myself in the process.' For a minimal cost, you get an extra wound and extra AP on a longer range gun, so the only practical reason to go veterans is to be less points efficient to unlock the privilege of buying expensive equipment to be even less points efficient. I just don't know what I'm going to do with any of these marines I have built with bolters. Should I just chuck them in the trash or pawn them off on someone who doesn't know any better?

Furthermore, GW seems to have missed the problem that DW veterans have in their index in regards to Power Level - Buying a full, ten-man squad is more expensive than buying two five-man squads. So if I'm stuck playing PL's with my friends, which they insist on for some reason, I have to toss away anything that isn't a frag cannon or sergeant, because if I want to field bolters I may as well head back to the chadmarines for a smidgen more than half the cost. It's not even that I'm salty over not being able to purchase Primaris marine models - I've got scads of them, enough to build a dedicated army. I'd just like these cool looking Mk III Iron Armor marines I've got to count for something.

I'm probably one of two or three people who even know/care about this issue. Am I missing something that makes basic veterans worthwhile over Primaris, or are they so completely outclassed that I may as well shelve them and wait for another edition change? Is there anything I can even use them for, if not as DW vets?

Two words: Storm Bolters.

Storm Bolters, Frag Cannons, melee options (don't crucify me), access to heavy bolters and missile launchers so you benefit from two great strats, and transports that aren't ridiculously expensive. Not to mention some unique and powerful combat squad options.

Even their stalker bolter is better than the Primaris version.

Rhinos and Corvus Blackstars?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Two words: Storm Bolters.

Y'see, I thought about that too, which at least makes it a trade-off between offensive power (Rapidfire 2) versus defensive power (longer range and an extra wound), with the vets being more expensive still. Of course, I don't think anyone's come up with a graceful way to convert a bunch of bolters into storm bolters, aside from pilfering them from Grey Knights. Speaking of which, I decided to compare DW veterans with storm bolters with GK Strike squads on a lark: 1 extra point loses you an attack and SIA, but you gain a force sword, psychic powers, and a built-in deepstrike, so I'm gonna say even GK come out ahead in points efficiency through sheer versatility.

But alas, I'm afraid I've got a bunch of bolter dudes with only the bits to make more bolter dudes. Honestly, I was considering running them as CSM in 20-man blobs - represent a slide into crusade doctrines what with being stuck in the Dark Imperium.

@Lemondish - Caught your post as I was typing mine. Frag cannons are good, no doubt, but I've rarely had them last more than a turn after they do their thing. Typically, I erase a unit with them, and then my frag cannon unit gets erased in turn. I'd add more marines to the unit to give it more staying power, but that brings us back around to DW vets' comparatively prohibitive cost, despite their recent drop in points.

EDIT: @Quasistellar - Cheaper transports are a good call, especially considering how expensive I hear repulsors can be.

Vets get a free chainsword so have 3 attacks each with their bolters. Being expensive and elite, hiding them in transports might be the key to survive.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Vets get a free chainsword so have 3 attacks each with their bolters. Being expensive and elite, hiding them in transports might be the key to survive.

Oh, that's neat. Except I just now noticed that bolters cost 1 point in DW, so now there's a measly 1 point difference between a bolter vet and an intercessor. So I either have to pitch vets into melee or give them literally anything else, or I'd be better served with a Primaris marine.

I hear the issue of what to do with bolter marines has been a point of consternation since 7th edition. What CAN I do with these guys that isn't just handicapping myself?

Axle_Gear wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
Vets get a free chainsword so have 3 attacks each with their bolters. Being expensive and elite, hiding them in transports might be the key to survive.

Oh, that's neat. Except I just now noticed that bolters cost 1 point in DW, so now there's a measly 1 point difference between a bolter vet and an intercessor. So I either have to pitch vets into melee or give them literally anything else, or I'd be better served with a Primaris marine.

I hear the issue of what to do with bolter marines has been a point of consternation since 7th edition. What CAN I do with these guys that isn't just handicapping myself?

you missed that intercessor weapons are also no longer free. the points difference is larger than one.

Veterans still have plenty of uses: they can fit in better transport options, they can take equipment loadouts primaris can't to do some jobs far cheaper, they remain one of the better melee options we have because of the ability to take a decent mix of close combat options while riding in said better transports.

the two areas they HAVE been outclassed: non-transport melee (use bikers), footslogging bolt-spam (Fortis KTs), Deepstriking Bolt-spam (Reivers)

So far in all experimental lists I'm looking at an even mix of vet KTs, Fortis KTs, and then assorted bikes/reivers depending on the holes I need filling. On a tangent note, all of our dreads are going to be fantastically more useful than the dreads of pretty much everyone else because of mission tactics and teleportarium. This isn't just "Codex: Primaris that don't suck" it's also "Codex: Dreadnoughts that survive to actually do something"

Here I was, feeling all dandy because my 5 Company Veterans (DA) with Storm Bolters were a nice anti-infantry option...

...then those Deathwatch fellas can do the same for measly 10p more - and they can do it with either +6" and AP-1 or -6" and AP-2.

20 S4 shots at AP-2 isn't something to sneeze at. Neither 40 of them (20p more) coming out of a Rhino.

Damn.

Man, DW Vets are great. 20pts buys you a A3 dude with Rapid fire 2 30" -1Ap. 5pts extra buys one a 3++ invuln.

Fortis hold the fort(is) and hog the DS strat/beacon, whilst vets jump out of planes and shoot things in the face with an insane abount of bullets. 40 SIA shots per round for 200pts is a *good* price imo.

They did a really good job making both types of Deathwatch marine a viable and interesting option. DW Vets are probably better for the options and flexibility that they offer. But Fortis Kill Teams are far more durable.

 grouchoben wrote:
Man, DW Vets are great. 20pts buys you a A3 dude with Rapid fire 2 30" -1Ap. 5pts extra buys one a 3++ invuln.

Fortis hold the fort(is) and hog the DS strat/beacon, whilst vets jump out of planes and shoot things in the face with an insane abount of bullets. 40 SIA shots per round for 200pts is a *good* price imo.

Let me laugh at your 20 pts tactical while I destroy your entire army with GEQ equivalent forces.
Nice durability you pay for those 20 pts!

The easiest comparison right now is probably Storm Bolter Vet vs Bolt Rifle Intercessor. Same cost. Intercessor gets +1 Wd, -1 AP, +6" range. Vet gets +1 Attack in melee, +1 shot at range (which doubles to +2 at rapid fire range) and access to a wider variety of transports.

Vets are definitely more glass cannon of the two, but they have a good number of ways to drop a fair amount of cannon in front of the enemy.

Cackle away my friend. Whatever makes you happy.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Man, DW Vets are great. 20pts buys you a A3 dude with Rapid fire 2 30" -1Ap. 5pts extra buys one a 3++ invuln.

Fortis hold the fort(is) and hog the DS strat/beacon, whilst vets jump out of planes and shoot things in the face with an insane abount of bullets. 40 SIA shots per round for 200pts is a *good* price imo.

Let me laugh at your 20 pts tactical while I destroy your entire army with GEQ equivalent forces.
Nice durability you pay for those 20 pts!

Never seen massed lasguns take down a Corvus. I'd like to see that, though. I'm sure it can be done. Just never seen anybody even try firing GEQ carried anti-infantry weapons at armour. Hell, even the equivalent GEQ infantry unit at 4 ppm or whatever at 200 points is like 100 lasgun shots, right? That kills like 2 marines in cover. Probably kill a few more if they drop their numbers for some special weapons, or grab some buffs, orders, etc.

I think vets still have value, heck just with combi weapons alone they could put out a withering amount of firepower just from a drop pod. They could be a really really nasty point and click killer if need be, so a mix of both would be a good choice.

Plus as a fan of Rhinos and transports this edition you can easily have them trundle down the field with primaris behind, making your opponent really think twice about target priority, as well as utilizing the extremely killiness that is the Corvus Blackstar (aka Dakkaboat) being able to drop a 5 man squad with frag cannons or combi meltas on the spot to tear things up.

 WindstormSCR wrote:

So far in all experimental lists I'm looking at an even mix of vet KTs, Fortis KTs, and then assorted bikes/reivers depending on the holes I need filling. On a tangent note, all of our dreads are going to be fantastically more useful than the dreads of pretty much everyone else because of mission tactics and teleportarium. This isn't just "Codex: Primaris that don't suck" it's also "Codex: Dreadnoughts that survive to actually do something"

I haven't been able to find a place for the Dread. None of the available configurations really click for me and I always end up cutting it for something else. How have you been running them?

 LunarSol wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

So far in all experimental lists I'm looking at an even mix of vet KTs, Fortis KTs, and then assorted bikes/reivers depending on the holes I need filling. On a tangent note, all of our dreads are going to be fantastically more useful than the dreads of pretty much everyone else because of mission tactics and teleportarium. This isn't just "Codex: Primaris that don't suck" it's also "Codex: Dreadnoughts that survive to actually do something"

I haven't been able to find a place for the Dread. None of the available configurations really click for me and I always end up cutting it for something else. How have you been running them?

They've been a great source of anti-tank for me. What are you using as anti-tank in its place?

 LunarSol wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

So far in all experimental lists I'm looking at an even mix of vet KTs, Fortis KTs, and then assorted bikes/reivers depending on the holes I need filling. On a tangent note, all of our dreads are going to be fantastically more useful than the dreads of pretty much everyone else because of mission tactics and teleportarium. This isn't just "Codex: Primaris that don't suck" it's also "Codex: Dreadnoughts that survive to actually do something"

I haven't been able to find a place for the Dread. None of the available configurations really click for me and I always end up cutting it for something else. How have you been running them?

In my marine lists I have had a solid time with Redemptor dreads with double onslaught cannons, and the teleportarium will let you bring them down really quick in cover, plus they are no slouch in close combat! The massed amount of Str5 Ap-1 fire from them is fairly staggering and str5 pretty reliable in wounding everything, especially if you can score a +1 to wound with the stratagem (I can only imagine how nasty the 2+ to wound rerolling 1s on massed squads of cultists is going to be " Look, 15 dead, no saves")

Lemondish wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

So far in all experimental lists I'm looking at an even mix of vet KTs, Fortis KTs, and then assorted bikes/reivers depending on the holes I need filling. On a tangent note, all of our dreads are going to be fantastically more useful than the dreads of pretty much everyone else because of mission tactics and teleportarium. This isn't just "Codex: Primaris that don't suck" it's also "Codex: Dreadnoughts that survive to actually do something"

I haven't been able to find a place for the Dread. None of the available configurations really click for me and I always end up cutting it for something else. How have you been running them?

They've been a great source of anti-tank for me. What are you using as anti-tank in its place?

TLC Razorbacks mostly. The extra cost for things like Venerable status, the power fist and the like just always cost me elsewhere and I end up cutting the Dread. Are you running, TLC/Stormfist? Venerable?

 LunarSol wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

So far in all experimental lists I'm looking at an even mix of vet KTs, Fortis KTs, and then assorted bikes/reivers depending on the holes I need filling. On a tangent note, all of our dreads are going to be fantastically more useful than the dreads of pretty much everyone else because of mission tactics and teleportarium. This isn't just "Codex: Primaris that don't suck" it's also "Codex: Dreadnoughts that survive to actually do something"

I haven't been able to find a place for the Dread. None of the available configurations really click for me and I always end up cutting it for something else. How have you been running them?

They've been a great source of anti-tank for me. What are you using as anti-tank in its place?

TLC Razorbacks mostly. The extra cost for things like Venerable status, the power fist and the like just always cost me elsewhere and I end up cutting the Dread. Are you running, TLC/Stormfist? Venerable?

Because it's all I have, I've been using two venerables with TLC/ML. They're rarely in a position to help in combat - I'd rather have them at range pegging things from afar. I proxied in a plasma cannon once but wasn't super happy with it.

I think I'll try the TLC Razorbacks. How many you running? I really wish marine vehicles gained the benefits of their respective chapter bonuses. It irks me to no end that there's an incentive against using vehicles.

I just have a couple. Truth be told though, I think non-Venerable TLC/ML dreads are probably overall more cost efficient weapon platforms, particularly now that they get Mission Tactics. I just sadly don't own any Missile Launchers since the DW dread didn't include one, so when I try to use a Dread it needs to be making good use out of that expensive power fist.

 LunarSol wrote:
I just have a couple. Truth be told though, I think non-Venerable TLC/ML dreads are probably overall more cost efficient weapon platforms, particularly now that they get Mission Tactics. I just sadly don't own any Missile Launchers since the DW dread didn't include one, so when I try to use a Dread it needs to be making good use out of that expensive power fist.

That's understandable. Though as a counter charge option, the fist isn't terribly bad on a TLC Venerable. And I'm not entirely certain 20 points saved is worth giving up 2+ BS/WS and a 6+++. I think that's plenty efficient. Plus - they always look way cooler.

I find the Deathwatch doesn't function well enough as a static gunline for things to ever really approach my LasCannons. They usually hang back with the Watch Master while all the Frag Cannons and stuff are on the other side of the table getting slaughtered. If my VenDread sits in the fireline he never gets to use his fist. Primaris might make the long range gunline work okay, but I think they really want to be teleported in midfield honestly.

 LunarSol wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

So far in all experimental lists I'm looking at an even mix of vet KTs, Fortis KTs, and then assorted bikes/reivers depending on the holes I need filling. On a tangent note, all of our dreads are going to be fantastically more useful than the dreads of pretty much everyone else because of mission tactics and teleportarium. This isn't just "Codex: Primaris that don't suck" it's also "Codex: Dreadnoughts that survive to actually do something"

I haven't been able to find a place for the Dread. None of the available configurations really click for me and I always end up cutting it for something else. How have you been running them?

mostly a pair of Mortis Quadlas (venerable dread with the FW Mk V arm) and they work pretty well. costs less than a quadlas predator or a pair of razors. for razorbacks I generally want to keep them moving and in midfield to deliver vets, so for those I go twin assault cannons.

I feel we're getting off the path here. I was particularly asking about what to do with all the bolter vets I have. If you're suggesting outfitting them differently, then I'd kindly request a good and plentiful kitbash to go with already built/painted marines to go with that suggestion. And I'm gonna go out on a limb, but last time I checked there wasn't a clever mod that let you turn bolter marines into decent looking dreadnoughts.

My main lamentation here is that the cost between a basic bolter vet and an Intercessor is so minuscule that taking the bolter veterans would be daft at best. So what do?

Axle_Gear wrote:
I feel we're getting off the path here. I was particularly asking about what to do with all the bolter vets I have. If you're suggesting outfitting them differently, then I'd kindly request a good and plentiful kitbash to go with already built/painted marines to go with that suggestion. And I'm gonna go out on a limb, but last time I checked there wasn't a clever mod that let you turn bolter marines into decent looking dreadnoughts.

My main lamentation here is that the cost between a basic bolter vet and an Intercessor is so minuscule that taking the bolter veterans would be daft at best. So what do?

Keep in mind that even though Intercessors have double the wounds, they don't really bring the same damage or durability options. While a Heltercessors (Hellblaster/Intercessor Fortis Kill Team) can deep strike and drop some serious pain, they're still T4 3+ marines that you just put into rapidfire plasma range without an invuln save. I find the Fortis Kill Teams work best in cover using their range and their mobility to stay out of range of a decent amount of damage while putting out decent firepower.

Vets on the other hand can add a Terminator to give you 2 wounds at 2+ for tanking all manner of ap 0 weaponry, storm shields for when you're getting shot at with something that melts through marine armour, and stormbolters that are twice as effective an SIA weapon than anything Intercessors can carry. They also get 3 attacks if you add in FREE chainswords. A double chainsword VV costs nothing except his body and means you aren't getting silenced by someone flying a Devilfish into you.

Which leads me to the conclusion that Intercessors are probably best at engaging at that middle range bracket, as they have been since they were released, and DW doesn't really change that. As such, it's not much value for building your Vets to handle that, and they should probably be all about burning brightly for as long as possible with the rules DW bring that nobody else does. I'd go out on a limb and say a vet team with 4 stormbolter/chainsword, 2 stormbolter/stormshield, 2 frag cannon, 1 terminator with sb/fist, and 1 vv with dual chainsword is probably one of the more effective drop units for DW. They'll stick around a bit outside of cover thanks to the defensive wargear choices that normal marines can't take, help you hose down something quickly thanks to the SIA infused lovely 4 shot stormbolters, and pump out like nearly 30 attacks in melee.

Now, I know I took a roundabout way to get here, but here's my suggestion. Using bolters in place of those stormbolters is 3 points cheaper, but nearly halves your SIA output from like 28 shots to 16. If you can, replace those bolter guys with stormbolters. I'm not sure of a quick way to kitbash regular bolters to be stormbolters, though maybe all it would take to do a 'counts as' is add one of those fancy large box mags to them (like the Sternguard bolters have). Adding chainswords to everybody who has a free hand will net you more attacks in melee for essentially free - plus they're easy to kitbash and look so quintessentially space marine that it hurts.

At first I was thinking "why veterans?" then I came to the conclusion CORVUS! Not only are those things pretty great at bringing the pain they also serve as a handy delivery system for a squad of veterans. You can easily get 9 guys, a terminator, and a watch captain/master in one and send it in to rock someone. Moreso if you get some frag cannons, but even the regular bolters are going to do some damage, and if you get storm bolters on all of them even better! I still think a volley of 20+ shots at close range with hellfire shells and rerolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound is going to cause a lot of pain on whatever target you shoot at.

The big bonus of course is the Teleport homer. If you place next to a objective or next to your lynch pin unit that cannot die you can shift a large sized force quickly across the battlefield to capture that objective or come to the aid of your beleaguered front lines. For me that mobility is going to be a key reason to take veterans. Also I already have 40 of them...

The teleport homer would be a lot more useful if it wasn't so trivial for the enemy to destroy. Half the time it happens on accident.

OP: I understand your concerns about point values, but that's not the whole story.

I'm starting a Deathwatch army and won't be using Primaris. At least not at first, they are too problematic. The lack of transports is hard, the lack of reliable 3+ invulnerable is hard, the lack of things like teleport homers is hard, etc.

But what really gets to me is the 2 wounds. There are too many things in the game that cause multiple wounds, everyone knows Primaris have 2 wounds, and Primaris are going to be the priority target. I know they are going to die sooner than Veterans, they cost slightly more than Veterans, and I could burn my opponents shots by including some cheap Veterans in my Veteran squads.

To me, it looks like you would play a Primaris DW army entirely differently from how you would play a Veteran-based DW army. You would be footslogging, you would be relying on range + cover to gain advantages, you would be depending on more wounds per model to see you through combat. Not sure that's the army I would bring to face Tyranids or Eldar. Maybe Orks.