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 LunarSol wrote:
The teleport homer would be a lot more useful if it wasn't so trivial for the enemy to destroy. Half the time it happens on accident.

I don't like being forced to drop it at deployment, nor am I happy that it can only go in my own deployment zone.

 techsoldaten wrote:
OP: I understand your concerns about point values, but that's not the whole story.

I'm starting a Deathwatch army and won't be using Primaris. At least not at first, they are too problematic. The lack of transports is hard, the lack of reliable 3+ invulnerable is hard, the lack of things like teleport homers is hard, etc.

But what really gets to me is the 2 wounds. There are too many things in the game that cause multiple wounds, everyone knows Primaris have 2 wounds, and Primaris are going to be the priority target. I know they are going to die sooner than Veterans, they cost slightly more than Veterans, and I could burn my opponents shots by including some cheap Veterans in my Veteran squads.

To me, it looks like you would play a Primaris DW army entirely differently from how you would play a Veteran-based DW army. You would be footslogging, you would be relying on range + cover to gain advantages, you would be depending on more wounds per model to see you through combat. Not sure that's the army I would bring to face Tyranids or Eldar. Maybe Orks.

The important thing to remember about Primaris vs Veterans is that you aren't forced to play an entirely Primaris DW army (or an entirely Veteran DW army for that matter). Primaris units are really powerful for what they do, but you need to avoid falling into the traditional Primaris pitfall by thinking they're supposed to be Vet replacements. No, they don't have cheap transports. No, they don't have access to invuln saves. But what they do have is what Primaris have always had - control of the middle of the field with their superior range and durability in cover. They're the guys you use to hold the fort when you want to protect those vets in deep strike. Either those vets are in transports or you deep strike them (usually the best option) - and with beta rules, you aren't dropping down until Turn 2. That's okay - but you'll need somebody to hold the line. DW Primaris in cover are pretty resilient, can hit hard from range (especially as DW), but you have to supplement them with something DW doesn't have access to if you're sticking to a mono-force...

Honestly, in my games prior to the beta rules, the one major threat to my Primaris was drop plasma. That always ruined me. There aren't a lot of other 2 damage weaponry with reliable shooting that could eat through armour saves outside of plasma. You need a screen to ensure that any drop plasma arrives outside of rapid fire range, where it'll do HALF its damage to you while your DW Primaris can fire back hard. You also need a cheap screen to push back psykers so the mortal wounds aren't targeting either your vets or your Primaris. If you don't want to ally in that cheap screen, then you are absolutely right - vets would save you like 4 points per model until you add in all the durability again with a Terminator to tank ap 0 and storm shields to avoid your armour melting.

Spot on Lemondish. Fortis teams will be all about secure and hold, while the vets go grab glory leaping out of blackstars and dakka things in the face behind sexy stormshields.

Meanwhile, MSU Intercessors shoot downrange with rapid fire 18" -2AP shots. I think it's hard to make a case for more than one pimped out fortis team, as they're just too expensive to run in multiples - but 5-man intercessors with a splash are very solid units.

Axle_Gear wrote:
I feel we're getting off the path here. I was particularly asking about what to do with all the bolter vets I have. If you're suggesting outfitting them differently, then I'd kindly request a good and plentiful kitbash to go with already built/painted marines to go with that suggestion. And I'm gonna go out on a limb, but last time I checked there wasn't a clever mod that let you turn bolter marines into decent looking dreadnoughts.

My main lamentation here is that the cost between a basic bolter vet and an Intercessor is so minuscule that taking the bolter veterans would be daft at best. So what do?

Glue another bolter to the bolter of your bolter vets and they're now all carrying storm bolters!

 Vector Strike wrote:

Axle_Gear wrote:
I feel we're getting off the path here. I was particularly asking about what to do with all the bolter vets I have. If you're suggesting outfitting them differently, then I'd kindly request a good and plentiful kitbash to go with already built/painted marines to go with that suggestion. And I'm gonna go out on a limb, but last time I checked there wasn't a clever mod that let you turn bolter marines into decent looking dreadnoughts.

My main lamentation here is that the cost between a basic bolter vet and an Intercessor is so minuscule that taking the bolter veterans would be daft at best. So what do?

Glue another bolter to the bolter of your bolter vets and they're now all carrying storm bolters!

I'm largely using the Assault stocks from my new Intercessors and Inceptor guns I'm not using.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Axle_Gear wrote:
I feel we're getting off the path here. I was particularly asking about what to do with all the bolter vets I have. If you're suggesting outfitting them differently, then I'd kindly request a good and plentiful kitbash to go with already built/painted marines to go with that suggestion. And I'm gonna go out on a limb, but last time I checked there wasn't a clever mod that let you turn bolter marines into decent looking dreadnoughts.

My main lamentation here is that the cost between a basic bolter vet and an Intercessor is so minuscule that taking the bolter veterans would be daft at best. So what do?

Glue another bolter to the bolter of your bolter vets and they're now all carrying storm bolters!

Yo dawg, I heard you liked bolters, so I put a bolter in your bolter so you can bolt when you bolt. Also here are some Vengence Rounds.

Personally I've had good luck using Veterans with Storm Shield and Storm Bolter. I take 4 Vets (SB and SS) + Sergeant (SB and Power Axe), 3 Bikes (Power Axe) and 2 Vanguard (TH and SS), and split them up via Combat squads.

The Vets are now 3++ with ULTRA DAKKA with a little bit of punch via the Sergeant, while the bikes and Vanguards go off at 12" move with T5.

The Teleport homer is cool. Even though it may destroyed so fast and so often.
I prefer DCCW as well. I've been thinking, going back and forth with the idea to include Reavers in my DW army. So finally, I made up my mind and made a Revilers army that features them as new vanguard marines.

 LunarSol wrote:
The easiest comparison right now is probably Storm Bolter Vet vs Bolt Rifle Intercessor. Same cost. Intercessor gets +1 Wd, -1 AP, +6" range. Vet gets +1 Attack in melee, +1 shot at range (which doubles to +2 at rapid fire range) and access to a wider variety of transports.

Vets are definitely more glass cannon of the two, but they have a good number of ways to drop a fair amount of cannon in front of the enemy.

yes yes yes yes we know guard are criminally under costed.

So, all you will hear here "but but but stormbolter!" Everyone will assume that you always have best loadout glued and right painting on your model to represent best option.

GW makes terrible rules, your bolter guys suck. Proxy them as stormbolter veterans, break their hands and magnetise them, or shelve them. You will not hear another solution here, outside "but veterans have stormbolters!!1".

DW Veterans are more flexible than Intercessors and that's really their main advantage. They get better transport options and really flexible equipment loadouts. Storm Shields give them access to a 3++ and Terminators allow them to tank small arms fire with a 2+ save 2W model. They also get an extra attack for free.

The problem with Primaris is the 2W they have don't really equate to double the durability. There are plenty of weapons out there that kill Primaris just as easily as regular Marines. Plasma is the main one, but Autocannons or any D3 damage weapons with medium fire rate will kill Primaris just as quickly as regular Marines, sometimes more quickly because of the reasons outlined above.

I love putting together a squad of DW jump marines with HTHs and watching them kill anything. DW has a ton of fun options, but they have sorta the same problem as GKs. They have to be playing against a certain army in order to be at their best. Even then their CP costs get out of hand quickly.

If they ever decide to upgrade what the Primaris DW can take, I would LOVE to sell my old DW models start a Primaris DW army.

On the question of what to do with bolter vets, I took the gigantic pile of extra bolt pistols I had lying around and mounted them combi-weapon style on the top rail of the regular Bolters. Marine Bolt Pistols look good that way, the slightly larger Heavy Bolt Pistols from the Reivers look fantastic.

Also (at least in my experience) Vets with Stormbolters and Storm Shields that can teleport into rapid fire range do horrible, horrible things to whatever you drop them on, and in practice they feel harder to kill one-on-one than Primaris. They feel a lot more valuable that the Fortis squads.