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So I have searched a big chunk of the forums in here and multiple sites and I have yet to find a definite answer in the question: Is it legal to use the Death Guard Daemon Prince with the index rules so you can get Warp time? In Battlescribe there is the option to use him. My personal opinion is that you can use him since it's an entirely different datasheet compared to the generic Chaos and Nurgle Daemon Prince. Has GW answered this in a FAQ or anywhere else? Thank you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So to backup my theory that this is legal I just use some common sense. Me as a Death Guard player was using the Index "Daemon Prince" until the CSM codex came out. The CSM codex datasheet doesn't allow you to make a Death Guard Daemon Prince, so i still used the Index Daemon Prince after the CSM codex also. If the CSM Daemon Prince datasheet replaced the Index Daemon Prince datasheet then Death Guard players could not field a Death Guard daemon prince at all until the Death Guard codex came out with a new datasheet which wasn't the case. The release of a new datasheet "Daemon Prince of Nurgle" in the DG codex didn't remove the Index Daemon Prince option from us and you can still use the Index Daemon Prince datasheet. Is my interpretation wrong? I could really use your help.

Razzmatazz13 wrote:
So I have searched a big chunk of the forums in here and multiple sites and I have yet to find a definite answer in the question: Is it legal to use the Death Guard Daemon Prince with the index rules so you can get Warp time? In Battlescribe there is the option to use him. My personal opinion is that you can use him since it's an entirely different datasheet compared to the generic Chaos and Nurgle Daemon Prince. Has GW answered this in a FAQ or anywhere else? Thank you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So to backup my theory that this is legal I just use some common sense. Me as a Death Guard player was using the Index "Daemon Prince" until the CSM codex came out. The CSM codex datasheet doesn't allow you to make a Death Guard Daemon Prince, so i still used the Index Daemon Prince after the CSM codex also. If the CSM Daemon Prince datasheet replaced the Index Daemon Prince datasheet then Death Guard players could not field a Death Guard daemon prince at all until the Death Guard codex came out with a new datasheet which wasn't the case. The release of a new datasheet "Daemon Prince of Nurgle" in the DG codex didn't remove the Index Daemon Prince option from us and you can still use the Index Daemon Prince datasheet. Is my interpretation wrong? I could really use your help.

The rule about using the Index version of a datasheet only applies for Wargear options. As such, if you want to use a Daemon Prince, the only legal Legion options are those allowed by Codex: Chaos Space Marines. If you want your Death Guard army to have a Daemon Prince, you'll need to use the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet. Technically, this means that during the gap between Codex:CSM and Codex: Death Guard, you were not allowed to run a Death Guard Daemon Prince, but that was generally ignored in practice as it was purely a quirk of the Codex release schedule.

So no, a Daemon Prince cannot have both the Death Guard legion and have Warptime. What you can do is have an allied detachment of Renegades (or another Legion) which are aligned to Nurgle but use the CSM powers list.

While I can see your point the problem is the wargear. An index daemon prince has access to warp bolter when a Nurgle Daemon prince can't. Isn't that a problem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Isn't that clearly a different datasheet?

Razzmatazz13 wrote:
While I can see your point the problem is the wargear. An index daemon prince has access to warp bolter when a Nurgle Daemon prince can't. Isn't that a problem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Isn't that clearly a different datasheet?

It is a different datasheet, which now appears in a different codex, making it no longer valid for death guard.

DG princes can now take a plague spewer to make up for it.

Razzmatazz13 wrote:
While I can see your point the problem is the wargear. An index daemon prince has access to warp bolter when a Nurgle Daemon prince can't. Isn't that a problem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Isn't that clearly a different datasheet?

That's correct, these are two distinct datasheets.

The Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet has the Death Guard discipline, has access to a Plaguespewer (via FAQ), and has the Death Guard Faction Keyword.

The Daemon Prince datasheet has the CSM discipline, has access to a Warp Bolter and has the <Legion> Faction Keyword. Codex: CSM lays out what is covered by <Legion>, and notably, Death Guard is not an option.

The Index "Daemon Prince" is not the same as the DG Codex "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".

The "Daemon Prince" may be taken as NURGLE and DEATH GUARD (Page 57 of Index: Chaos) and is thus a legal option. The Index Daemon Prince only has access to the Index Dark Hereticus list of powers.

Aelyn wrote:
The rule about using the Index version of a datasheet only applies for Wargear options. As such, if you want to use a Daemon Prince, the only legal Legion options are those allowed by Codex: Chaos Space Marines. If you want your Death Guard army to have a Daemon Prince, you'll need to use the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet. Technically, this means that during the gap between Codex:CSM and Codex: Death Guard, you were not allowed to run a Death Guard Daemon Prince, but that was generally ignored in practice as it was purely a quirk of the Codex release schedule.

So no, a Daemon Prince cannot have both the Death Guard legion and have Warptime. What you can do is have an allied detachment of Renegades (or another Legion) which are aligned to Nurgle but use the CSM powers list.

If datasheet does not appear in codex index version is legal. There's no rough rider datasheet in IG codex thus they are usable.

Is there datasheet "daemon prince" in codex? "Daemon prince of nurgle" does not count. If there's datasheet called specifically "Daemon prince" then yes index only applies for wargear. If not you can take datasheet "Daemon Prince" from index.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The Index "Daemon Prince" is not the same as the DG Codex "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".

The "Daemon Prince" may be taken as NURGLE and DEATH GUARD (Page 57 of Index: Chaos) and is thus a legal option. The Index Daemon Prince only has access to the Index Dark Hereticus list of powers.

This is incorrect.

The first question in the flowchart in the Designer's Commentary is "Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?"

Either the model is a Daemon Prince, which has a datasheet in Codex: CSM and has to use those rules, including <Legion> restrictions, or it is a Daemon Prince of Nurgle, which has a datasheet in Codex: Death Guard and uses those rules.

Page 57 of Index: Chaos is irrelevant in this instance, because the datasheet in question appears in Codex: CSM and uses the Legion rules in that book.

Aelyn wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The Index "Daemon Prince" is not the same as the DG Codex "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".

The "Daemon Prince" may be taken as NURGLE and DEATH GUARD (Page 57 of Index: Chaos) and is thus a legal option. The Index Daemon Prince only has access to the Index Dark Hereticus list of powers.

This is incorrect.

The first question in the flowchart in the Designer's Commentary is "Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?"

Either the model is a Daemon Prince, which has a datasheet in Codex: CSM and has to use those rules, including <Legion> restrictions, or it is a Daemon Prince of Nurgle, which has a datasheet in Codex: Death Guard and uses those rules.

Page 57 of Index: Chaos is irrelevant in this instance, because the datasheet in question appears in Codex: CSM and uses the Legion rules in that book.

My model is a "Daemon Prince", not a "Daemon Prince of Nurgle". Where is the datasheet for "Daemon Prince" in the DG codex?

Also, keep in mind, there is no requirement to use the "correct" model to represent a datasheet. You can use a Gretchin as a Daemon Prince for all the rules care.

Aelyn wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The Index "Daemon Prince" is not the same as the DG Codex "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".

The "Daemon Prince" may be taken as NURGLE and DEATH GUARD (Page 57 of Index: Chaos) and is thus a legal option. The Index Daemon Prince only has access to the Index Dark Hereticus list of powers.

This is incorrect.

The first question in the flowchart in the Designer's Commentary is "Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?"

Either the model is a Daemon Prince, which has a datasheet in Codex: CSM and has to use those rules, including <Legion> restrictions, or it is a Daemon Prince of Nurgle, which has a datasheet in Codex: Death Guard and uses those rules.

Page 57 of Index: Chaos is irrelevant in this instance, because the datasheet in question appears in Codex: CSM and uses the Legion rules in that book.

Indeed, you can't get around the flowchart by creative interpretation.

Aelyn wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The Index "Daemon Prince" is not the same as the DG Codex "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".

The "Daemon Prince" may be taken as NURGLE and DEATH GUARD (Page 57 of Index: Chaos) and is thus a legal option. The Index Daemon Prince only has access to the Index Dark Hereticus list of powers.

This is incorrect.

The first question in the flowchart in the Designer's Commentary is "Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?"

Either the model is a Daemon Prince, which has a datasheet in Codex: CSM and has to use those rules, including <Legion> restrictions, or it is a Daemon Prince of Nurgle, which has a datasheet in Codex: Death Guard and uses those rules.

Page 57 of Index: Chaos is irrelevant in this instance, because the datasheet in question appears in Codex: CSM and uses the Legion rules in that book.

I'm sure you can provide exact page in codex with datasheet titled "Daemon prince"

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Indeed, you can't get around the flowchart by creative interpretation.

By your logic a Rhino is the same as a Daemon Prince of Nurgle.

"Daemon Prince" and "Daemon Prince of Nurgle" are two very different datasheets.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My model is a "Daemon Prince", not a "Daemon Prince of Nurgle". Where is the datasheet for "Daemon Prince" in the DG codex?

Also, keep in mind, there is no requirement to use the "correct" model to represent a datasheet. You can use a Gretchin as a Daemon Prince for all the rules care.

There is no datasheet named "Daemon Prince" in the Death Guard Codex, but there is one in Codex: CSM. As such, the answer to the question "Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?" is "Yes", and that means you can't use the Index datasheet - you have to use the Codex version, which is not allowed to be Death Guard.

tneva82 wrote:

I'm sure you can provide exact page in codex with datasheet titled "Daemon prince"

Sure, when I get home I can open my copy of Codex: Chaos Space Marines and give you the page number.

Aelyn wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My model is a "Daemon Prince", not a "Daemon Prince of Nurgle". Where is the datasheet for "Daemon Prince" in the DG codex?

Also, keep in mind, there is no requirement to use the "correct" model to represent a datasheet. You can use a Gretchin as a Daemon Prince for all the rules care.

There is no datasheet named "Daemon Prince" in the Death Guard Codex, but there is one in Codex: CSM. As such, the answer to the question "Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?" is "Yes", and that means you can't use the Index datasheet - you have to use the Codex version, which is not allowed to be Death Guard.

tneva82 wrote:

I'm sure you can provide exact page in codex with datasheet titled "Daemon prince"

Sure, when I get home I can open my copy of Codex: Chaos Space Marines and give you the page number.

That's a good point. However, you can also argue that the only datasheet for a "Daemon Prince, with Death Guard Keyword" is found in the Index, thus legal to take, since the one in the CSM codex can't be taken by Death Guard.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My model is a "Daemon Prince", not a "Daemon Prince of Nurgle". Where is the datasheet for "Daemon Prince" in the DG codex?

Also, keep in mind, there is no requirement to use the "correct" model to represent a datasheet. You can use a Gretchin as a Daemon Prince for all the rules care.

There is no datasheet named "Daemon Prince" in the Death Guard Codex, but there is one in Codex: CSM. As such, the answer to the question "Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?" is "Yes", and that means you can't use the Index datasheet - you have to use the Codex version, which is not allowed to be Death Guard.

tneva82 wrote:

I'm sure you can provide exact page in codex with datasheet titled "Daemon prince"

Sure, when I get home I can open my copy of Codex: Chaos Space Marines and give you the page number.

That's a good point. However, you can also argue that the only datasheet for a "Daemon Prince, with Death Guard Keyword" is found in the Index, thus legal to take, since the one in the CSM codex can't be taken by Death Guard.

That argument would also allow you to take any instance of "<Model> with <option / wargear / special rule>" and effectively allow you to take anything you want from the Index - for example, an equivalent argument would allow me to take an "old" Great Unclean One by arguing that my model is a "GUO with power level 12" instead of 17 (or whatever the values are - AFB)

Leaving RAW aside for moment, can we agree that the apparent intent of the flowchart was to allow people to use models where the WYSIWYG was legal in the Index but not in the Codex? Obviously "apparent intent" is irrelevant for determining an answer by RAW, but I find it useful to confirm people's perspectives that inform their thinking.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That's a good point. However, you can also argue that the only datasheet for a "Daemon Prince, with Death Guard Keyword" is found in the Index, thus legal to take, since the one in the CSM codex can't be taken by Death Guard.

Wrong. "Daemon Prince, with Death Guard Keyword" is not a model. Models do not have keywords.

For every Citadel Miniature representing a daemon prince, there is a datasheet in either Codex: DG, Codex: CSM, Codex: Chaos Daemons or Codex: TS to represent it. Therefore you can never answer the question from the flowchart with "yes".

 Jidmah wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That's a good point. However, you can also argue that the only datasheet for a "Daemon Prince, with Death Guard Keyword" is found in the Index, thus legal to take, since the one in the CSM codex can't be taken by Death Guard.

Wrong. "Daemon Prince, with Death Guard Keyword" is not a model. Models do not have keywords.

For every Citadel Miniature representing a daemon prince, there is a datasheet in either Codex: DG, Codex: CSM, Codex: Chaos Daemons or Codex: TS to represent it. Therefore you can never answer the question from the flowchart with "yes".

And, again, nothing compels you to use the "correct" datasheet for your model. My model is an Index Daemon Prince, one that may take the Death Guard Keyword. Therefore I must use the most recent rules for my model, which is that found in the index.

It's almost like GW using special snowflake FAQs causes more problems than it fixes, eh?

So again. A dead end, some people say yes, some no and even though I read and respect all of your opinions, some of them more some less justified I am still confused. I have in my hands 3 datasheets 1 Nurgle, 1 chaos and 1 just plain Daemon Prince (index), is the index one not valid? Most probably is but I guess it's in the hands of the judges on every tournament to decide. I will print my list from Battlescribe and I will justr ask them to tell me if it's legit and the reason for their call. Good times ahead.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That's a good point. However, you can also argue that the only datasheet for a "Daemon Prince, with Death Guard Keyword" is found in the Index, thus legal to take, since the one in the CSM codex can't be taken by Death Guard.

Wrong. "Daemon Prince, with Death Guard Keyword" is not a model. Models do not have keywords.

For every Citadel Miniature representing a daemon prince, there is a datasheet in either Codex: DG, Codex: CSM, Codex: Chaos Daemons or Codex: TS to represent it. Therefore you can never answer the question from the flowchart with "yes".

And, again, nothing compels you to use the "correct" datasheet for your model. My model is an Index Daemon Prince, one that may take the Death Guard Keyword. Therefore I must use the most recent rules for my model, which is that found in the index.

It's almost like GW using special snowflake FAQs causes more problems than it fixes, eh?

To confirm, does that mean you consider it to be legal or illegal to take the Index Great Unclean One datasheet?

If it's legal, then is it also legal to summon in if you make a Summoning roll of 12?

If it's not legal, how is it different from your Daemon Prince argument?

Aelyn wrote:

To confirm, does that mean you consider it to be legal or illegal to take the Index Great Unclean One datasheet?

If it's legal, then is it also legal to summon in if you make a Summoning roll of 12?

If it's not legal, how is it different from your Daemon Prince argument?

GUO has an entry in the Chaos Daemons codex, so no, you can't summon the Index version, because that is unambiguously the latest datasheet.

What is the latest datasheet for a "Daemon Prince" with the NURGLE keyword? That is where the ambiguity lies, in whether you can consider that when determining what the latest rules are or not. Because of GWs wishy-washy attitude to the Indexes, we simply don't know. Both readings are correct, but exclusive, so it has to be one or the other. Until GW stop hiring river carp to be their Rules Team we simply don't know.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
[And, again, nothing compels you to use the "correct" datasheet for your model. My model is an Index Daemon Prince, one that may take the Death Guard Keyword.

"Index Daemon Prince" is neither a model nor a datasheet. The datasheet is called "Daemon Prince" and has been replaced by Codex: CSM. So If you have a "Daemon Prince" you must use Codex: CSM

Models do not have keywords on their own. Datasheets have keywords. The only way to find your model's keyword is to look at your datasheet. Therefore you cannot determine which keyword your model has before picking a datasheet to represent it.

For any given Daemon Prince model in existence, there is a datasheet found in a codex.

Therefore you cannot ever use the Daemon Prince datasheet from the index.

If you think otherwise, please provide proof of a daemon prince model with a death guard keyword without using a dataslate.

It's almost like GW using special snowflake FAQs causes more problems than it fixes, eh?

Almost like you use "special snowflake FAQ" to misread rules on purpose to make them seem broken, eh?

The flowchart makes perfect sense without any special treatment for anything unless you are claiming that keywords are found on sprues and are used to build the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razzmatazz13 wrote:
So again. A dead end, some people say yes, some no and even though I read and respect all of your opinions, some of them more some less justified I am still confused. I have in my hands 3 datasheets 1 Nurgle, 1 chaos and 1 just plain Daemon Prince (index), is the index one not valid? Most probably is but I guess it's in the hands of the judges on every tournament to decide. I will print my list from Battlescribe and I will justr ask them to tell me if it's legit and the reason for their call. Good times ahead.

BaconCatBug is either doing this for sport or trolling. At the very least you need to acknowledge that no one is sharing his view on this.

The flowchart clearly asks if you can find a datasheet for your model, any datasheet in any codex. Unless you clearly and honestly come to the conclusion that the model you field in your game is not represented by any of the three Nurgle aligned Daemon Princed from DG, CSM or Daemons, you cannot use the index.

Note that the "plain" Daemon Prince is also found in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

If you really want a Daemon Prince with nurgle keyword and Death Hex/Warptime/Prescience in your Death Guard army, just create a vanguard, spearhead or outrider detachment with three units that do not benefit from Inexorable Advance. Drones, PBC, and any of the support characters work well for this.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

To confirm, does that mean you consider it to be legal or illegal to take the Index Great Unclean One datasheet?

If it's legal, then is it also legal to summon in if you make a Summoning roll of 12?

If it's not legal, how is it different from your Daemon Prince argument?

GUO has an entry in the Chaos Daemons codex, so no, you can't summon the Index version, because that is unambiguously the latest datasheet.

And Daemon Prince has an entry in Codex: CSM, so no, you can't take the Index version, because that is unambiguously the latest datasheet.

Alternatively, my model is a 12-power GUO. The most recent datasheet for that is in the Index, so by an equivalent argument to yours I can take it.

So much vitriol despite the fact I am also agreeing with you.

GW needs to clear it up, because it's a legitimately unclear issue.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So much vitriol despite the fact I am also agreeing with you.

GW needs to clear it up, because it's a legitimately unclear issue.

Please provide proof of a model with a keyword prior to selecting a datasheet.

Otherwise it's 100% clear and you are wrong.

 Jidmah wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So much vitriol despite the fact I am also agreeing with you.

GW needs to clear it up, because it's a legitimately unclear issue.

Please provide proof of a model with a keyword prior to selecting a datasheet.

Otherwise it's 100% clear and you are wrong.

Well if you want to go down that route, provide proof of what a dice is.

For what it's worth, I don't think that you can consider the keyword like that, but it is a legitimate argument. I am sorry if I was unclear on that.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So much vitriol despite the fact I am also agreeing with you.

GW needs to clear it up, because it's a legitimately unclear issue.

I agree that GW need to clear up the flowchart and what it means for two datasheets to be the same (both for index-codex comparisons and for index-codex comparisons), but I disagree that this specific situation is ambiguous.

For what it's worth, I hope my posts weren't taken as vitriolic, as it was intended as reasoned debate - I enjoy a good semantics argument and didn't intend offence

 BaconCatBug wrote:
For what it's worth, I don't think that you can consider the keyword like that, but it is a legitimate argument. I am sorry if I was unclear on that.

What you "think" is irrelevant, Keywords are defined on page 175 of the BRB.

It clearly states that the keywords of models are defined on their unit's datasheet. Your Daemon Prince can therefore never have a "Death Guard" keyword before selecting a datasheet, the very process defined in the flowchart.

Which in turn means that the only way to get a Daemon Prince with a Death Guard keyword is to select the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet for any Daemon Prince model, at which point you cannot go back and select another datasheet for it.

As above
This isn't ambiguous, because the only way to make a distinction isn't valid when considering the model. A model doesn't have keywords. The dataslate attached to it does.

You can but miss out on DR.

Not worth it IMO.

DR is an ability so you won't lose it. I guess I can make a spearhead detachment with a sorcerer with jump pack and 2 Plagueburst Crawler and have my Warptime source. I will miss on both CSM and DG stratagems but you loose some you win some