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Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.

Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?


Angus

No. Where are iconic land speeders, bikes etc? I would buy true scale marines (specially ravenwing) but not primaris. They have different lore than basic marines. I think they are like cult marines in CSM.

Oh absotivalutely! Whoda thought we'd see a time where classic marines get squatted and sisters come out in plastic :p

This has been a topic of much debate already, and the community is pretty divided on what they think the long game is .

Personally I don't think they're likely to ever release an old scale marine kit again (outside of some sort of nostalgic special edition type release), but at the same time there's no reason for the to withdraw old kits from sale while they are selling well. So it could easily take a decade to see the old marines leave the shelves, given how long a lot of kits stick around for anyway.

Shorties aint going anywhere anytime soon.

But don't expect any new designs, ever, for hobbit marines.

*Resets the clock*

This is the new Squats/SoBs isn't it?

If Kirby had remained CEO, I believe Primaris would have replaced marines.

I believe when Roundtree received the reigns, they were too far into development to can Primaris, so they had to be released, but I'm betting they were changed from a definite replacement line to a "wait and see" supplement.

At this point, time will tell if they replace marines (I think they will, but maybe 5 years or more down the road); their options are simpler than the current marine sets, which GW does seem to want to move in. The infantry section is mostly present, but vehicle options are lacking.

I think the copyright issue is kind of a red herring, although I agree that it's quite clear that Primaris are destined to replace the old marines eventually.

The problem with re-scaling the marine line now, more so than last time around, is that the range is huge, so replacing it all is a similarly huge, and expensive, endeavor. Introducing the re-scaled guys as nu-marines gives them some space to pace out the releases and then eventually quietly retire the stunties once everyone is used to the idea that the Primaris guys are the new standard.

Fluff-wise, I expect that they'll continue to advance the story, with the older marines slowly whittled down from normal attrition and their ranks being refilled with Primaris, until it reaches a point where there's just not enough of the old guys left to be relevant.

This thread has happened before. This thread will happen again.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This thread has happened before. This thread will happen again.

Speculation about the future of marines. Speculation about the future of marines never changes. /Ron Perlman voice

They already had the trademark angle covered with Adeptus Astartes, so I don't think that has much to do with it. I think that Space Marines were the victim of their own success. GW's bread and butter is selling new marine kits, but the marine range was largely 'complete' with crisp, modern kits for nearly everything (with a few exceptions like bikers, scouts etc). They'd been trying to invent new marine units for a while with things like centurions. What else new can you add to keep up those new kit sales? The next step on that path was to reinvent the line as a whole. So while the modern kits were crisp, fresh and packed with bits, they were still based on a marine scale and aesthetic that was set 20 years ago and the truescale community online has always been quite vocal. It's quite easy to see where the jump came to "let's do truescale marines, that lets us keep releasing marine stuff, and people seem to want it".

The next problem is, do your new truescale marines replace the existing ones? As it, do you make your new truescale kit and say "this is what tactical marines look like now." You can, but a large proportion of space marine collectors are going to be fuming that they feel their army has been made obsolete and invalidated overnight. A lot of these people would be likely to quit marines entirely rather than buy the new stuff, at least in the short term. In addition to that you face several years of awkward transition where the early kits you replace (which would be the generic stuff like tacticals) are bigger and better looking than the elites and heroes. So instead they came up with primaris as a concept - these are new marines. No, your existing marines are still valid. Here, buy these new ones and add them to your army!

Is their eventual goal to replace marines classic? I think people are too keen to assign GW a masterplan on this one - they will do whatever they think will make them the most money. For the time being that's introducing new Primaris kits, because there's still lots of gaps in that range and kits obviously have the biggest spike in their sales when they're brand new. But once the range has filled out a bit more, I expect the accountants will study the sales figures and see how things have worked out. I think they probably expected people to jump on the new marines because they're better scaled, better proportioned and better posed, and that it would be an obvious, gradual shift. Nobody would want old marines now that they can see the new boys. But at the same time, they have absolutely no reason to discontinue the old marines so long as they still sell. Some people here have made claims that primaris haven't sold as well as GW expected and that they've slowed down their releases as a result. I don't know where that information comes from or if there's any truth to it but it's interesting if is is true.

I feel that going forward, new players will gravitate towards Primaris. They're bigger, better posed, better proportioned, and new folks don't have the weight of history and lore to make them fond of old marines.Old players will split. Some will move to the new stuff because the upgrading scale trumps any fondness for the old lore. Some will prefer old marines because even though the look is outdated, they love the lore, concept and design of tactical squads, devastators, terminators more than aggressors and inceptors. Those folks will probably continue buying classic marines for some time to come, and as long as they keep buying GW has no reason to stop selling. For the moment I fall largely into that latter group; while I feel that the basic intercessors look good I just don't like the aesthetic design choices made for the rest of the primaris range.

 grouchoben wrote:
Shorties aint going anywhere anytime soon.

But don't expect any new designs, ever, for hobbit marines.

Well that would mean GK are never going to get fixed, they don't have access to primaris as the only marine chapter. And GW seems to want to change rules for stuff with models only, preferably with new models.

The problem with re-scaling the marine line now, more so than last time around, is that the range is huge, so replacing it all is a similarly huge, and expensive, endeavor. Introducing the re-scaled guys as nu-marines gives them some space to pace out the releases and then eventually quietly retire the stunties once everyone is used to the idea that the Primaris guys are the new standard.

This, and the fact that AoS seem to have shown GW that while they are people who are all in on the new stuff no matter what it is, there is also a group of people that were willing to do black PR in FLGS for free, if primaris were a day one replacment of normal marines. It is too risky to try.

My friend had a fun "theory" about marines and primaris in 8th. He said that GW wants to keep them as flag ship, but also make them all feel bad to play, so when the time comes to bring new primaris let say bikers or assault jump dudes, the people who played those in 8th or maybe even 9th, are going to hate the normal marine version so much, they will welcome the primaris with open arms. He also joked that if GW suddenly made female GK, I would gobble them up if they had good rules, stupid fluff or not. And at least about the second thing he is right.

Karol wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Shorties aint going anywhere anytime soon.

But don't expect any new designs, ever, for hobbit marines.

Well that would mean GK are never going to get fixed, they don't have access to primaris as the only marine chapter. And GW seems to want to change rules for stuff with models only, preferably with new models.

What makes you think GKs won't get Primaris in the near future?

Maybe that's why they haven't been touched much even.

I love Primaris. They are similar to the 30k legions and are incredible in terms of looks.

Can't wait for more. I don't want to see any more additions to the bloated regular Astartes range.

Primaris ravenwing would be superb. Maybe we could get more jetbikes?

Over 8th all chapters were getting primaris through FAQs, GK did not. That is one thing. So the option to just slam primaris in to the GK codex seems to not be an option considered by GW.
The other is what other people said, if GW wanted to make GK the primaris faction, they could have done so when the codex came out or the CA or the FAQs. In fact through 8th FAQs, errata etc GW is slowly removing options other marines have, through FW for example, from GKs.
They also seem to at least say something about factions that aren't unupdated or screwed over by the FAQ. SoB were told a year in advance they will get new models and a codex, GSC were told to not worry as the new codex will fix their stuff. GK get zero info. No one seems to play them at the studio, no one seems to pationate about them. why would they get an update at all. There is probablly more orc or chaos players at GW, and the design seems to be hell bend on giving eldar new ways to play. I don't think they have the time to sit down and design new GK models and rules for them. They don't even have time to give GK a FAQ.

Karol wrote:
Over 8th all chapters were getting primaris through FAQs, GK did not. That is one thing. So the option to just slam primaris in to the GK codex seems to not be an option considered by GW.
The other is what other people said, if GW wanted to make GK the primaris faction, they could have done so when the codex came out or the CA or the FAQs. In fact through 8th FAQs, errata etc GW is slowly removing options other marines have, through FW for example, from GKs.
They also seem to at least say something about factions that aren't unupdated or screwed over by the FAQ. SoB were told a year in advance they will get new models and a codex, GSC were told to not worry as the new codex will fix their stuff. GK get zero info. No one seems to play them at the studio, no one seems to pationate about them. why would they get an update at all. There is probablly more orc or chaos players at GW, and the design seems to be hell bend on giving eldar new ways to play. I don't think they have the time to sit down and design new GK models and rules for them. They don't even have time to give GK a FAQ.

It's not that simple. You can't just give GKs Intercessors and say job done.

They'll need unique Primaris units, with force weapons and boltsorm gauntlets or something like that.

Clearly GW decided to focus on getting the generic Primaris out first, and in my opinion simply haven't had a window in the design, production and release schedule to do the GK ones yet.

From a lore standpoint, it doesn't make a lot of sense that GK would have Primaris. They are a chapter that exists in secret, I'm not even sure Gulliman knows about them since they we're around in his day.

 techsoldaten wrote:
From a lore standpoint, it doesn't make a lot of sense that GK would have Primaris. They are a chapter that exists in secret, I'm not even sure Gulliman knows about them since they we're around in his day.

While it's possible he might not know about them, it's equally possible he does. It's pretty easy to write the fluff to have him giving them Primaris tech of so, and if that's the way GW want to go with them.

 techsoldaten wrote:
From a lore standpoint, it doesn't make a lot of sense that GK would have Primaris. They are a chapter that exists in secret, I'm not even sure Gulliman knows about them since they we're around in his day.

Didn't he meet Voldus?

Yeah, Gulliman knows about Grey Knights. in addition to Voldus they showed up on Luna when he first appered there.

I tend to mostly agree with Bellerophon.

 maeglin wrote:
Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.

Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?


Angus

Well the theory is flawed because while they couldn't trademark "Space Marine" they did trademark "Adeptus Astartes". Also, it's more to do with the ridiculous bloat of the Space Marines line and the only avenue left being "well let's make them bigger" to fix the issue. Plus the new Primaris fit the lore of not being as effective alone as the Imperium is when fighting as a collective hole and benefit more from allies than the generic guys do to fill holes in their lists (for now at least, let's give them 20 years to muck that up) so you could argue they're there to sell allies to little Billy and his new Ultramarines army.

Also cool 30k era style load outs are cool.

 insaniak wrote:


Fluff-wise, I expect that they'll continue to advance the story, with the older marines slowly whittled down from normal attrition and their ranks being refilled with Primaris, until it reaches a point where there's just not enough of the old guys left to be relevant.

The trouble with this is while fluff attrition can occur the collections are immortal.

"So all the basic marines from chapter x were killed in battle? No. I have 200 on my shelf."

 Orlanth wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


Fluff-wise, I expect that they'll continue to advance the story, with the older marines slowly whittled down from normal attrition and their ranks being refilled with Primaris, until it reaches a point where there's just not enough of the old guys left to be relevant.

The trouble with this is while fluff attrition can occur the collections are immortal.

"So all the basic marines from chapter x were killed in battle? No. I have 200 on my shelf."

Then you're playing the army at an earlier point in it's history.

9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.

I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.

I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.

The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.

Banville wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.

I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.

The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.

That's my thought as well. Not to mention I could see TOs arguing against old marines in tournaments in the future due to how much smaller they are for LOS purposes when the inevitable squatting happens.

Banville wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.

I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.

The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.

You say that like GW care about old players. GW's current business model is to attract 12 year olds using mummy's credit card who then quit after 3 weeks.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Banville wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.

I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.

The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.

You say that like GW care about old players. GW's current business model is to attract 12 year olds using mummy's credit card who then quit after 3 weeks.

You say that like Kirby is still in charge of the company.