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Well CoD pretty clearly says that you gotta have LOS to shoot, but what about models directly under you? Can you shoot them? I would think that by RAW it is a big no an although annoying, is fluffy as well and probably fun or at least funny.

Is the building area terrain?

Yes.

Is it WYSIWYG?

No.

 

Damn simple.

Posted by snooggums on 06/16/2006 11:33 AM
Is the building area terrain?
Yes.

I don't have the Cities of Death book yet, but does it say that all buildings become area terrain? If not, then a building will not necessarily be area terrain. In those instances you would use "true" line of sight.

Posted By snooggums on 06/16/2006 10:33 AM

Is the building area terrain?

Yes.

Is it WYSIWYG?

No.

 

Damn simple.

Actually snoogums, if you looked at the book again, a building is BOTH. Which is why the question arises.

The COD book specifically mentions that you cannot shoot through the roof of a ruin - ie if you're on top of a 10 inch tall tower, and your LOS traces through the ceiling of a 4" tall ruin beside you, you may not target the unit on the second or ground floor of said ruin.

The target unit doesn't have to be 6" below the roof in order to be out of LOS, as it would for normal area terrain (assuming that the area terrain rules apply to vertical distances - there is nothing in the rules to indicate yea or nay there, it just says "more than 6 inches within").

So, would a unit on the ground floor of a ruin be able to draw LOS to a unit on the second floor of that ruin?

There is a precedent for a "yes" from the rules for template weapons, which are specifically allowed to target one floor above or below them. It is not specified whether LOS is an issue for this though (the diagram shows the flamer shooting from *outside* the ruin, so it has LOS to both the 1st and 2nd floors)

But the "no shooting through the roof" is a precedent for "no".

Posted By happypants on 06/16/2006 10:47 AM

Posted By snooggums on 06/16/2006 10:33 AM

Is the building area terrain?: Yes.

Is it WYSIWYG?: No.

Damn simple.

Actually snoogums, if you looked at the book again, a building is BOTH. Which is why the question arises.

If it is both then the answer is no since one of the two conditions blocks LOS. If the floor is a grate with gaps you can see through then you would be able to shoot through it as long at wasn't too far for the area terrain rules. 

Can't read the book yet, no one is stocking it in our area yet.

*Removed blank lines for spacing.

Happypants wrote:
Actually snoogums, if you looked at the book again, a building is BOTH. Which is why the question arises.

No it doesn't. It says that Ruins are area terrain. They have additional special rules but they are still area terrain and follow all the rules for area terrain unless specified otherwise.

Strangelooper wrote:
The COD book specifically mentions that you cannot shoot through the roof of a ruin - ie if you're on top of a 10 inch tall tower, and your LOS traces through the ceiling of a 4" tall ruin beside you, you may not target the unit on the second or ground floor of said ruin.

It does? I'd be interested to see that quote. I think you're mistaking firing through a ruin with firing into it.


A ruin is area terrain. If the firing model is in the same area terrain as the target they just need be within 6" of each other (measured between the models from their actual positions as dictated by the CoD rules). If they are, they can see and fire at each other.

If the firing model had a flamer weapon and his target was more than one level above or below him we would not be able to target the enemy model (as he can only target one floor above or below himself).

You're right Yak, now that I have the book in front of me I can't fnd that quote. I must have been thinking of Barrage weapons only being able to strike the top floor.

My mistake, I apologize.

Looks like ruins are just area terrain, full stop.

It notes that you use LOS and doesn't give a size for the terrain, where I was getting it from (which was wrong) is where it notes that a ruin can be shot over if you have LOS completely above it.

Which brings up the point... if you have LOS from base to base that goes over a broken corner of the terrain do you have a shot?

Do you know what area terrain is?

snoogums, I am really NOT being an @ss here, you HAVE to get the book on this because by normal area terrain rules you are right, there is no LOS, but in CoD it notes that you can fire OVER a building if none of the outer shell is blocking LOS. In normal 40k you would NOT have a shot, it would be L3 terrain between you an you would not have the shot.

The scenario is this: Model on 4th floor has clear unobstructed shot at model on ground NOT in terrain, but the shot passes over a part of a building that has walls lets say 1" tall at that point but the rest of the building is 3 levels.

Do you have a shot? By normal 40k rules it is clear that you don't, by CoD I would assume that you would. It does not say anywhere that a ruin is area terrain assumd to be as tall as the tallest floor or anything to that effect.

Snoogums, on this point you REALLY need to have the CoD book. (which by the way you CAN order online even if local stores are not carrying it yet)

Posted By happypants on 06/19/2006 10:46 AM
snoogums, I am really NOT being an @ss here, you HAVE to get the book on this because by normal area terrain rules you are right, there is no LOS, but in CoD it notes that you can fire OVER a building if none of the outer shell is blocking LOS. In normal 40k you would NOT have a shot, it would be L3 terrain between you an you would not have the shot.

The scenario is this: Model on 4th floor has clear unobstructed shot at model on ground NOT in terrain, but the shot passes over a part of a building that has walls lets say 1" tall at that point but the rest of the building is 3 levels.

Do you have a shot? By normal 40k rules it is clear that you don't, by CoD I would assume that you would. It does not say anywhere that a ruin is area terrain assumd to be as tall as the tallest floor or anything to that effect.

Snoogums, on this point you REALLY need to have the CoD book. (which by the way you CAN order online even if local stores are not carrying it yet)

 

Do you think that people without books can't make a call based on the info you are providing? In your example you have explained two rules, both of which are answered by my first answer in the thread, if it is determined by area terrain then no if determined by WYSIWYG then yes you have a clear line of sight.

First you said that you are playing CoD so your "in regular 40K" comment is not applicable. You stated that the model has a visually clear shot to a model behind some area terrain that is composed of what sounds like a broken building. You then said that you can fire over a building if none of the outer shell is blocking LOS, implying that the walls are WYSIWYG for height. So in your example the shell of the building is not blocking LOS so you can fire over it. I'm not telling you to follwo the basic rules, I'm working with what you give. Since not everyone will own every book it is usually implied in the forums that the person with the question will either supply the related rules or page numbers to make a decision. If there is more to this that what you have posted then just ignore my feedback.

You've been wrong in all of your threads you have started so far so don't get an attitude.

So can someone who has the CoD book answer?

And snoogums man, don' be so sensative, my point was really that you need to have the CoD book to give an answer on this.

Snooggums - As stated above, it's area terrain. It is area terrain, of a height of the building. The height sets the level, basically, they got rid of all that stupid "level 1,2,3" garbage and gave us a continuum of heights. Quite commendable. That doesn't turn it into WYSIWYG terrain, however.

I see what you are saying antonin, but is the level of the area terrain based on the highest part of it or the part that you would be shooting over?

That's less clear, but my reading of the examples is that it is based on the part of the building being shot over. However, the building is not wysiwyg, so even if you can see through the middle of the building, that does not constitute LOS.

Agreed 100%, I am askin about shooting over a corner. The picture is 2d but hopefully gets my point across.

What do you think?

I would be inclined by the example in the book to think that you have the LOS but like you said, it is pretty unclear.

BTW that shot is supposed to be coming from a model in another building not inside the building that I have the pic of.

Now the way the picture in the book looks to me is that you would NOT be able to take the shot. I'm not sure though.

Do they mean that buildings are supposed to create a silhouette for blocking LOS, or do they mean that buildings just become a block measured from their outermost extremities for blocking LOS? If it's the first option then the shot you illustrate is legal. If it's the second option then that shot is no good. I wish the picture example in the book was firing from the photographer's view. In other words, could the marine hit the stealer if he was firing through the huge gap on the top floor of the building, or does he need to be above the two skinny supports on the building?

I'm guessing at the intent, but I think they are going for the block method. My club will probably play it as silhouette.

I agree with Glaive.  I wish the picture showed more of the building.  They use the most obvious example of the rule, when the building is very square, with no spires or anything sticking up.

The rule says "..if the model is high enough to see over a city ruin..." and "...take a 'model's eye view' to see if the enemy is visible"

Both could be potentially true.  I can see over the portion of the building I'm shooting over, but not the facade, which has a spoke sticking up.  This is probably one of those 'discuss with opponent ahead of time' or else build all your buildings as squat bricks

I think to be safe, I'll be only shooting if my model is higher than the highest point of the entire 'ruin'... 

@Cruentus, would you not shoot unless the enemy model was also that high?

I agree it is a discusser.

Which kind of makes you wonder why you bother buying any of the rules in the first place.

Ruins are area terrain with no size classification and the rules specify that they can be shot over if you can see over them using a model's eye view.

In your picture example, if a model was in another building and using a line of sight you could completely see a model on the other side of the ruin (100%, not a shred of even his base was obscured by the ruin), then by the rules he could take the shot.

If players wanted to change the rules and play ruins as blocking LOS in a big invisible block up to it's highest point that is within their rights (as always), but it is not what the rules say.

The rules could have been written about firing over the "highest point of the ruin" but they didn't. They said "over" and use a "model's eye view" to see if the "target is visible".

But the example they show is of a marine and his target being "above" a structure that can obviosly be seen through. If they were using the marine's eyes in the example he could actually be lower and still be able to take the shot through the broken supports and beams. Now, I'm all for the silhouette method, but I don't think that's what they're showing us.

I may be completely off with area terrain, but it seems like "model's eye view" means just about nothing. It seems to me that model's can shoot through walls with no LOS at all if they are within 6" of each other in a city ruin. I don't know what they mean by "model's eye view" but it doesn't seem to me like actual LOS comes into play much at all.

So yak, if part of thier base is behind is it a cover save or no shot?

@Glaive:

When firing into a ruin (area terrain), model's eye view means nothing. Only the defined edge of the area terrain and whether the target model is 6" or less within it from the firing model.

When firing over a ruin, the rules specify that you don't use size classifications like every other type of area terrain. It says that you must use a model's eye view. That is the only way to determine if you can see over the ruin. Again, if GW wanted ruins to block line of sight (height-wise) in a magic cylinder style up to it's highest point they simply could have said:

"The only exception to this is if a model is high enough to see over the tallest point of an intervening city ruin to a model on the far side."

But they did not. They just say you have to be able to see a target model over the ruin with a model's eye view.


@happypants:

I would like to say not shot at all, but there simply isn't anything in the rules that supports that stance. It would be a similar situation to if a model was standing behind area terrain at the very corner of it, with part of its base sticking around the edge. In both cases I believe a cover save appiles.


I just want to add that in my personal games I don't think I will play ruins this way (unless my opponent really wants to). I think I'm going to stick with the completely unobstructed convention to make it a little bit easier to determine if LOS is blocked or not.

I guess that picture is just what's throwing me. OK! I'm ignoring the picture now and just going on the written word. I can't remember if I mentioned it alredy, but I have had very little experience with area terrain. I can see a use for it with forest terrain where the trees are moveable to allow minis to fit in, but with city terrain with walls and stuff it just seems like it's easier to use actual LOS. That's how we've played our games anyways since all of our terrain is urban. I'm exited about cityfight though, and i want to get this right so, if you don't mind, can you give me a crash course in area terrain? I'd like to know your take on the rules and how you think you'll be playing it (if they differ). The following is my take on the subject.

LOS:
A city ruin does not block LOS to models within 6" of each other even if those models cannot see each other (like there's a wall in the way).
LOS can never be drawn through a city ruin of any depth even if the two models can see each other.
LOS can never be drawn through a window to a model on the other side of the terrain unless the window is on the top of the terrain and has the top frame broken. So the terrain should be thought of as the shape it would create in a vacuform machine for LOS purposes.

Movement:
In a city ruin models can move through solid walls freely as long as the distance rolled is sufficient.

That's all I can think of for now, but if you could just let me know how off I am or if I've missed something that makes area terrain different from regular terrain that would be cool.

That last post wasn't necessarily directed at yakface. I'm interested in anyone's take on it. I just want to make sure my interpretation of area terrain is at least on the right track.

I'd like to say that the new wording including "shell" in it makes it perfectly clear that you actually do use the literal shape of the wall to determine wether it blocks LOS, and not the abstract size categories when trying to shoot over. There's quite a few pieces we use as area terrain that will actually be following the CoD rules (we had been playing it as a literal wall with area terrain rules for the flat part already) so we don't even have to change.

Yay! You got the book! (really, I am not being a jerk, I am happy for you, what do you think about it?)

Posted By happypants on 06/23/2006 12:35 PM
Yay! You got the book! (really, I am not being a jerk, I am happy for you, what do you think about it?)

I haven't got the book , I just took your word from:

snoogums, I am really NOT being an @ss here, you HAVE to get the book on this because by normal area terrain rules you are right, there is no LOS, but in CoD it notes that you can fire OVER a building if none of the outer shell is blocking LOS. In normal 40k you would NOT have a shot, it would be L3 terrain between you an you would not have the shot.

I will be ordering it mid next month though as the club is already setting up the terrain for it.