Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Snoogums:

The word "shell" is no where in the CoD rules. You are probably going to find the CoD ruin rules a little baffling considering how you usually play your games (I'm guessing).

The rules are clear that ruins do not have any size classification, and that you can shoot "over" them if the firing model is high enough (and to use a model's eye view to determine this or not), but that's about where the clarity ends.

The diagram they use shows a marine in a ruin drawing line of sight over a smaller intervening ruin to a Genestealer in a third ruin on the same height level as the marine. The intervening ruin is completely below the line of sight of the marine, so the diagram isn't really all that helpful.

When it would come to shooting over intervening ruins to models BELOW (such as on a lower level, or on ground level), exactly what is "high enough" and "over" are left rather ambiguous.

 

I think my last posts got lost in the middle of the page blending in with other posts. That, or everyone's just ignoring me because of my vast stupidity. I'd like to redirect attention back up about 6 posts to my ramblings about what I understand area terrain to be. Basically, we have used city ruins almost exclusively here, but have always played them as what they actually are for blocking LOS and movement. I'm eager to get going on some cityfight games though and I want to make sure that my understanding of using city ruins as area terrain is correct. So, a few questions:

Are models allowed to move through solid walls on the city ruin piece if their difficult terrain roll is sufficient?
Can a model see another model through a solid wall as long as it's no more than 6" away?
Can a model see another model through a window on another side of the terrain?
What if the window's top frame is open to air?

I can pretty much guess these, but I want to make sure I've got it right. I'm thinking it's Yes, Yes, No, Yes. I'd like to know what your guys' RAW interp is and how you think you'll actually be playing it (if they differ). I like the fact that COD got rid of the infinite height buildings and allowed models above the first level to fire over models below. I think our house rules will be something like "must have actual LOS AND be within 6" or something like that, and "must move over or around solid walls." I just don't want to get used to playing it one way, then be shocked when I'm charged through a solid wall in the store. Thanks in advance!

I suggest you re-read the section in the rulebook about area terrain, and Pete Haines article on terrain in USWD 308 is actually very informative on the subject as well.

With normal area terrain, the actual physical proportions of what is *on* the area terrain base is inconsequential. The only thing that matters is the size of the base and the size classification.

The only thing that City Ruins change is that it has no size classification, so the "top" of the model actually dictates when and where it can be seen over.

Are models allowed to move through solid walls on the city ruin piece if their difficult terrain roll is sufficient?

Yes, models can move through solid ruin walls if their DT roll is high enough because the actual physical nature of the "ruins" is inconsequential except for the size of the base and in the case of height.

Can a model see another model through a solid wall as long as it's no more than 6" away?

Yes, models can see through solid walls of the ruin if the target is within 6" of the edge of the base (for the same reason as the sentence above).

Can a model see another model through a window on another side of the terrain?

No, models may never shoot through a piece of area terrain to models on the opposite side because the area terrain rules prohibit such an action. This is *not* the same as attempting to see "over" the ruin.

What if the window's top frame is open to air?

This is going to depend on exactly how you are going to play seeing "over" area terrain. If you are using a strict model's eye view, then yes, if you can see an enemy model over the top of any physical part of the ruin model then you would be able to see and shoot him.

However, I believe most people are going to play a semi-magic cylinder style with ruins (given the way the example is given in the CoD book I think most players will assume this was the designer's intent). I think most will play that a ruin base blocks line of sight up to it's highest point, meaning you'd have to be able to see over the highest portion of the ruin in order to see and shoot models beyond.

Thanks for humoring my stupid questions Yak! I just haven't had that much experience with area terrain, and I'm still familiarizing myself with the COD book. I haven't had a subscription to White Dwarf since they stopped including vehicle datafax cards in the magazine. It sounds like good reading though. Maybe I can track one down. Looks like it's time to start thinking of my terrain in a more abstract way. I'll start re-training my Guard immediately.

Sounds like the "over" issue is one of those to discuss before the game. I'll stick with my vacu-form analogy...unless my opponent doesn't know what a vacu-form machine is... which is pretty likely. Well, I'll think of something. Thanks again!

The reason I don't think the "vacu-form" concept is going to resonate with most players is becasue I don't personally think the designers included the rule to allow ruins to be seen over to fire on targets below the firer.

I honestly think the idea (based on their diagram) was to allow units that are both up in the top of ruins/buildings to fire at each other above ruins/buildings that are below them. Kind of like people standing on the top of a forest canopy. They can fire at each other, but they can't see down below to those people on the jungle floor (and vice-versa).

That's what I personally think the intent of the designer was, and I think that the average player is going to read CoD and get only that from it, not that their models in tall ruins can see over intervening smaller ruins to fire at targets running around on the ground.

It's just that the rules don't clearly support that position (but what's new?).

Yeah really! Unclear rules? Preposterous!

I probably worded my post badly. I meant I'll use that analogy to describe that method. So, it would be like, "Do you want to play block method, or vacu-form method?" I think you're right on with what they were going for. The picture seems to illustrate that anyways. Plus, it's more streamlined that way.

Posted By yakface on 06/23/2006 7:58 PM

Snoogums:

The word "shell" is no where in the CoD rules. You are probably going to find the CoD ruin rules a little baffling considering how you usually play your games (I'm guessing).

The rules are clear that ruins do not have any size classification, and that you can shoot "over" them if the firing model is high enough (and to use a model's eye view to determine this or not), but that's about where the clarity ends.

The diagram they use shows a marine in a ruin drawing line of sight over a smaller intervening ruin to a Genestealer in a third ruin on the same height level as the marine. The intervening ruin is completely below the line of sight of the marine, so the diagram isn't really all that helpful.

When it would come to shooting over intervening ruins to models BELOW (such as on a lower level, or on ground level), exactly what is "high enough" and "over" are left rather ambiguous.

 

Actually it will be real easy for me since it is clear that they are aiming for shooting over other large  things if they have a diagram of something doing that. New subgame, new rules. I'll have to see how the book words shooting over other terrain to something on the ground but I don't think shorter terrain will be blocking LOS based on what has been posted so far if it isn't literally blocking but I will have to see the book.