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Okies.  I had mentioned a while back having generated some lists of viable Chaos Lords (and Lieutenants, Aspiring Champions, etc), and there was some interest in reposting them, so here we go...

I'm defining "viable" as "any configuration within a certain constraint for which there are no cheaper configurations that kill an equal or greater number of the chosen target per round of combat".  Depending on the constraint, this can produce some pretty, erm, unviable configurations -- no one would want to take a naked Chaos Lord, but for 60 points, it's the best Chaos Lord you can get...

Anyway, what the columns on the table mean:

Cost: Point cost of the configuration
Mean: Average number of the target (MEqs, in this case) killed per round
Mode: Modal number of the target killed.  This is the most common result of a round of combat.
KPP: Kills per point.  Mean divided by Cost.
Configuration: The actual configuration of the model.
Kill Roll:  The roll sequence the model generates against the target: R is unlimited rerolls, 1R is one reroll, Z is rending, everything else should be fairly apparent.

Anyway, with regard to GW IP stuff, it's my understanding that posting the cost of particular configurations without giving cost for individual components (or rules for those components) is acceptible.  If not, someone, I'm sure, will stab me

Without further ado, the first run: Charging Chaos Lord, unmarked, swinging in initiative order:

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<table class="lowTable"><tbody> <tr class="lowHeader"><td colSpan=6>Charging unmarked Chaos Lord, swinging in initiative order, killing MEqs</td></tr> <tr class="lowHeader"><td>Cost</td><td>Mean</td><td>Mode</td><td>KPP</td><td>Configuration</td><td>Kill Roll</td> <tr><td class="lowNum">60</td><td class="lowNum">0.44</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.007</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">62</td><td class="lowNum">0.56</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.009</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">63</td><td class="lowNum">0.59</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.009</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Great Weapon</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">70</td><td class="lowNum">1.25</td><td class="lowNum">1</td><td class="lowNum">.018</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">75</td><td class="lowNum">1.78</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.024</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">77</td><td class="lowNum">2.22</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">85</td><td class="lowNum">2.50</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">86</td><td class="lowNum">2.78</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">95</td><td class="lowNum">2.93</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">96</td><td class="lowNum">3.26</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.034</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">101</td><td class="lowNum">3.33</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.033</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Daemonic Mutation; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">105</td><td class="lowNum">3.42</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.033</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">110</td><td class="lowNum">3.50</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+Z 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">111</td><td class="lowNum">3.84</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.035</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">120</td><td class="lowNum">4.03</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.034</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">125</td><td class="lowNum">4.09</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.033</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">127</td><td class="lowNum">4.20</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.033</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+2R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">140</td><td class="lowNum">4.48</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+2R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">150</td><td class="lowNum">4.71</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Terminator Armor; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">155</td><td class="lowNum">4.90</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Furious Charge</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+2R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">165</td><td class="lowNum">5.15</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Terminator Armor; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Furious Charge</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">180</td><td class="lowNum">5.63</td><td class="lowNum">6</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Terminator Armor; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Furious Charge</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+2R 2+R</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="lowTable"><tbody> <tr class="lowHeader"><td colSpan=6>Statured charging unmarked Chaos Lord</td></tr> <tr class="lowHeader"><td>Cost</td><td>Mean</td><td>Mode</td><td>KPP</td><td>Configuration</td><td>Kill Roll</td> <tr><td class="lowNum">75</td><td class="lowNum">1.78</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.024</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">77</td><td class="lowNum">2.22</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">85</td><td class="lowNum">2.50</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">87</td><td class="lowNum">2.78</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">95</td><td class="lowNum">2.93</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">97</td><td class="lowNum">3.26</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.034</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">102</td><td class="lowNum">3.33</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.033</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">105</td><td class="lowNum">3.42</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.033</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">110</td><td class="lowNum">3.50</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+Z 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">112</td><td class="lowNum">3.84</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.034</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">120</td><td class="lowNum">4.03</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.034</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">127</td><td class="lowNum">4.20</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.033</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+2R 2+</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="lowTable"><tbody> <tr class="lowHeader"><td colSpan=6>Flying charging unmarked Chaos Lord striking at initiative</td></tr> <tr class="lowHeader"><td>Cost</td><td>Mean</td><td>Mode</td><td>KPP</td><td>Configuration</td><td>Kill Roll</td> <tr><td class="lowNum">80</td><td class="lowNum">0.44</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.006</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">82</td><td class="lowNum">0.56</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.007</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Extra CCW; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">83</td><td class="lowNum">0.59</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.007</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Great Weapon; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">90</td><td class="lowNum">1.25</td><td class="lowNum">1</td><td class="lowNum">.014</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">95</td><td class="lowNum">1.78</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.019</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Daemonic Stature; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">97</td><td class="lowNum">2.22</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.023</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">105</td><td class="lowNum">2.50</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.024</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Stature; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">106</td><td class="lowNum">2.78</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Extra CCW; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">115</td><td class="lowNum">2.94</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">116</td><td class="lowNum">3.26</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Extra CCW; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">121</td><td class="lowNum">3.33</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Daemonic Mutation; Extra CCW; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">125</td><td class="lowNum">3.42</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">130</td><td class="lowNum">3.50</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+Z 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">131</td><td class="lowNum">3.84</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Extra CCW; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">140</td><td class="lowNum">4.03</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">145</td><td class="lowNum">4.09</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">147</td><td class="lowNum">4.20</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+2R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">160</td><td class="lowNum">4.48</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Furious Charge; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">175</td><td class="lowNum">4.90</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Furious Charge; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+2R 2+R</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="lowTable"><tbody> <tr class="lowHeader"><td colSpan=6>Charging unmarked biker Chaos Loard at initiative order</td></tr> <tr class="lowHeader"><td>Cost</td><td>Mean</td><td>Mode</td><td>KPP</td><td>Configuration</td><td>Kill Roll</td> <tr><td class="lowNum">90</td><td class="lowNum">0.56</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.006</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">93</td><td class="lowNum">0.74</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.008</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Great Weapon; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 3+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">100</td><td class="lowNum">1.25</td><td class="lowNum">1</td><td class="lowNum">.012</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">105</td><td class="lowNum">1.67</td><td class="lowNum">1</td><td class="lowNum">.016</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Power Weapon; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 4+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">115</td><td class="lowNum">2.78</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.024</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">125</td><td class="lowNum">3.26</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">130</td><td class="lowNum">3.33</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Daemonic Mutation; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">135</td><td class="lowNum">3.48</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">140</td><td class="lowNum">3.84</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">150</td><td class="lowNum">4.10</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">165</td><td class="lowNum">4.48</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+2R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">180</td><td class="lowNum">4.90</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Furious Charge; Chaos Space Marine Bike</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+2R 2+R</td></tr></tbody></table>

More to come, especially the various marked lords and some champ configs. Feel free to post requests.

Looking at the results (this is the first time I've run KPP and Mode with the rest of them), I was actually surprised at how tightly packed the viable configs are for overall effeciency once you meet a certain threshold (generally 25 or 26 points spent on raw combat upgrades).

Any actual interest in more of these?

Oh hell yes!

Thank you,

Darrian

I am interested - keep them coming!

At the moment I run a Statured Lord with 2xccw and D speed. Comes in at around 97 points and does a number against meqs and can even take out vehicles.

I have just modelled up a Lord on a bike with lightning claw but was wondering what other stuff to give him. This thread gives me lots of ideas...

do you do requests?

Feel free to post requests.

More to come tomorrow (or maybe tonight, if it's as hot in my painting room as it is here atm...), probably Slaanesh marked and/or some aspiring champions.

At the moment I run a Statured Lord with 2xccw and D speed. Comes in at around 97 points and does a number against meqs and can even take out vehicles.

Well, that's a configuration on the chart -- looking at it, your next two upgrades to that are strength and then strength and spikes

Interesting to note that in terms of efficiency, Spiky Bits is a better upgrade than Daemonic Mutation in general -- most configurations stay the same KPP or go down in KPP when Spiky Bits is upgrades to Daemonic Mutation.

I have just modelled up a Lord on a bike with lightning claw but was wondering what other stuff to give him.

Lightning Claws are made for bikes. It's more pronounced on Aspiring Champions (as you'll see when I post them; I'm curious myself as to what their KPP ends up looking like), but the Chaos bike setup (+1A, no bonus for extra ccw) meshes with the single Lightning Claw setup (no bonus for extra ccw for a single lightning claw). The single claw is not as good as a Dark Blade straight up, but has some advantages that place it over the top in the top-end conditions (3+ rerollable is better than 2+, Lightning Claws do not count against the gift cap or the wargear cap, Lightning Claws can be master-crafted, and in addition to being better than 2+, 3+ rerollable can be improved to 2+ rerollable, which is better still) -- those top-end conditions just get there faster on a bike than on foot.

One thing you're not considering is the possibility of 1st turn charge on some, and the possible desire to have an unkillable lord (2+/5+, rune, essence) to tie up a unit rather than ripping through units left and right.

How about some stats for crazy 200+ point Khornate lords? I realize that many players don't go past 150 on lords, but it's pretty common for Khornate players to go apeshit for a lord with a Berzerker Glaive. Hell, yesterday I fed an entire squad of daemonettes and a four-man chosen terminator retinue to my 225-point lord before he finally dropped - I consider that a pretty viable chaos lord.

One thing you're not considering is the possibility of 1st turn charge on some, and the possible desire to have an unkillable lord (2+/5+, rune, essence) to tie up a unit rather than ripping through units left and right.

I'm pretty specifically quantifying raw combat abilities. Read the bit on definition of "viable". Defensive abilities can't be so easily quantified, so if you want to include them, pick an appropriate lord off of one of the lists and stick some defensive abilities on him.

How about some stats for crazy 200+ point Khornate lords? I realize that many players don't go past 150 on lords, but it's pretty common for Khornate players to go apeshit for a lord with a Berzerker Glaive. Hell, yesterday I fed an entire squad of daemonettes and a four-man chosen terminator retinue to my 225-point lord before he finally dropped - I consider that a pretty viable chaos lord.

Khornate lords will probably come after Slaaneshi.

Posted By Lowinor on 06/19/2006 6:49 PM

One thing you're not considering is the possibility of 1st turn charge on some, and the possible desire to have an unkillable lord (2+/5+, rune, essence) to tie up a unit rather than ripping through units left and right.

I'm pretty specifically quantifying raw combat abilities. Read the bit on definition of "viable". Defensive abilities can't be so easily quantified, so if you want to include them, pick an appropriate lord off of one of the lists and stick some defensive abilities on him.

Right...I read that, thus my comment. Maybe compare them to a 6 man las/plas squad to see how likely it would be for them to make it to combat, and then multiply that percentage by the kill efficiency.

This did inspire me to do my own excel spreadsheet, and how to optimize my DP a bit by giving him demonic strength and spiky bits.

Can you run:

110
Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Mutation; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature?
6x
3+1RZ
3+

I'm wondering if the re-roll to attacks helps the rending more efficeintly than the Daemonic Strength

I'm wondering if the re-roll to attacks helps the rending more efficeintly than the Daemonic Strength

That config is 3.46 kills, mode 4, KPP 0.031.

I don't think you realize how the lists are generated -- my program compares every possible configuration of offensive abilities and picks the best one for every point value. Hrm, I notice that I totally failed to mention that earlier

Anyway, yes, the way the tables are generated is I have a program that compares every possible configuration with the given constraint, simulate ten million combats (because after spending some time trying to come up with a closed form that handled rending and rerolls, I thought to myself "hell, I can just simulate this ten million times for each configuration"). Eventually I'll simulate combat including attacks from the victims as skyth suggests, but probably after I figure out a way to figure in movement in some way that's actually meaningful. <style type="text/css"> .lowNum { background-color: #dfeff8; font-family: "Palatino Linotype", Garamond; font-size: 18; text-align: center; padding-left: 3px; padding-right: 3px; } .lowConfig { background-color: #dfeff8; font-family: "Courier New", Courier; font-size: 12; width: 400px; padding-left: 2px; padding-right: 2px; } .lowRoll { background-color: #dfeff8; font-family: "Palatino Linotype", Garamond; font-size: 16; padding-left: 2px; padding-right: 2px; } .lowHeader { color: #ffffff; text-align: center; } .lowTable { border: 4px outset; border-color: rgb(108, 140, 240); background-color: rgb(54, 70, 120); cursor: default; } </style>

Here go the Slaaneshi configs...

Note that in all of these, the lord is assumed to be charging, swinging at initiatve (e.g., no Power Fists), and killing MEqs. Combat Drugs are assumed to always be double-tapped for S and A.

Edited to fix a couple of problems with mis-flagged abilities.

<table class="lowTable"><tbody> <tr class="lowHeader"><td colSpan=6>Slaaneshi Lord</td></tr> <tr class="lowHeader"><td>Cost</td><td>Mean</td><td>Mode</td><td>KPP</td><td>Configuration</td><td>Kill Roll</td> <tr><td class="lowNum">70</td><td class="lowNum">0.44</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.006</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">72</td><td class="lowNum">0.56</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.008</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">73</td><td class="lowNum">0.59</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.008</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Great Weapon; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">80</td><td class="lowNum">1.25</td><td class="lowNum">1</td><td class="lowNum">.016</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">85</td><td class="lowNum">1.78</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.021</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">87</td><td class="lowNum">2.22</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">95</td><td class="lowNum">2.50</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">96</td><td class="lowNum">2.78</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">105</td><td class="lowNum">2.93</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">106</td><td class="lowNum">3.26</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">111</td><td class="lowNum">3.33</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.030</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Daemonic Mutation; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">115</td><td class="lowNum">3.42</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.030</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">120</td><td class="lowNum">3.50</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+Z 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">121</td><td class="lowNum">3.84</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">127</td><td class="lowNum">3.89</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">130</td><td class="lowNum">4.03</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">135</td><td class="lowNum">4.10</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.030</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Spiky Bits; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">137</td><td class="lowNum">4.41</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">145</td><td class="lowNum">4.63</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">150</td><td class="lowNum">4.71</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">152</td><td class="lowNum">4.82</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+2R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">160</td><td class="lowNum">5.15</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">175</td><td class="lowNum">5.63</td><td class="lowNum">6</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+2R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">185</td><td class="lowNum">5.81</td><td class="lowNum">6</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Terminator Armor; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">8x 3+1R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">200</td><td class="lowNum">6.33</td><td class="lowNum">7</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Terminator Armor; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">8x 3+2R 2+R</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="lowTable"><tbody> <tr class="lowHeader"><td colSpan=6>Slaaneshi Biker Lord</td></tr> <tr class="lowHeader"><td>Cost</td><td>Mean</td><td>Mode</td><td>KPP</td><td>Configuration</td><td>Kill Roll</td> <tr><td class="lowNum">100</td><td class="lowNum">0.56</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.006</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">103</td><td class="lowNum">0.74</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.007</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Great Weapon; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 3+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">110</td><td class="lowNum">1.25</td><td class="lowNum">1</td><td class="lowNum">.011</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">115</td><td class="lowNum">1.67</td><td class="lowNum">1</td><td class="lowNum">.014</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Power Weapon; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 4+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">125</td><td class="lowNum">2.78</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.022</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">135</td><td class="lowNum">3.26</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.024</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">140</td><td class="lowNum">3.33</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.024</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Daemonic Mutation; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">145</td><td class="lowNum">3.48</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.024</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">150</td><td class="lowNum">3.84</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">160</td><td class="lowNum">4.10</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Spiky Bits; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">165</td><td class="lowNum">4.15</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.025</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Daemonic Mutation; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+ 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">170</td><td class="lowNum">4.48</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">175</td><td class="lowNum">4.71</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">185</td><td class="lowNum">5.14</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">190</td><td class="lowNum">5.15</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Furious Charge; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">200</td><td class="lowNum">5.63</td><td class="lowNum">6</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Lightning Claw; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Chaos Space Marine Bike; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+2R 2+R</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="lowTable"><tbody> <tr class="lowHeader"><td colSpan=6>Slaaneshi Statured Lord</td></tr> <tr class="lowHeader"><td>Cost</td><td>Mean</td><td>Mode</td><td>KPP</td><td>Configuration</td><td>Kill Roll</td> <tr><td class="lowNum">85</td><td class="lowNum">1.78</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.021</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">87</td><td class="lowNum">2.22</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">95</td><td class="lowNum">2.50</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">97</td><td class="lowNum">2.78</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">105</td><td class="lowNum">2.94</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">107</td><td class="lowNum">3.26</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.030</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">112</td><td class="lowNum">3.33</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.030</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">115</td><td class="lowNum">3.42</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.030</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">120</td><td class="lowNum">3.50</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+Z 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">122</td><td class="lowNum">3.84</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">127</td><td class="lowNum">3.89</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">130</td><td class="lowNum">4.03</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.031</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">135</td><td class="lowNum">4.08</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.030</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+Z 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">137</td><td class="lowNum">4.41</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">145</td><td class="lowNum">4.63</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">152</td><td class="lowNum">4.82</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.032</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+2R 2+</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="lowTable"><tbody> <tr class="lowHeader"><td colSpan=6>Flying Slaaneshi Lord</td></tr> <tr class="lowHeader"><td>Cost</td><td>Mean</td><td>Mode</td><td>KPP</td><td>Configuration</td><td>Kill Roll</td> <tr><td class="lowNum">90</td><td class="lowNum">0.45</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.005</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">92</td><td class="lowNum">0.55</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.006</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">93</td><td class="lowNum">0.59</td><td class="lowNum">0</td><td class="lowNum">.006</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Great Weapon; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">100</td><td class="lowNum">1.25</td><td class="lowNum">1</td><td class="lowNum">.013</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 4+ 2-</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">105</td><td class="lowNum">1.78</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.017</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; No Weapons; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">4x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">107</td><td class="lowNum">2.22</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.021</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">115</td><td class="lowNum">2.50</td><td class="lowNum">2</td><td class="lowNum">.022</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+Z 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">116</td><td class="lowNum">2.78</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.024</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">125</td><td class="lowNum">2.93</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.023</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 3+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">126</td><td class="lowNum">3.26</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">131</td><td class="lowNum">3.33</td><td class="lowNum">3</td><td class="lowNum">.025</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Daemonic Mutation; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">135</td><td class="lowNum">3.42</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.025</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">5x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">140</td><td class="lowNum">3.50</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.025</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+Z 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">141</td><td class="lowNum">3.84</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Dark Blade; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">147</td><td class="lowNum">3.89</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">150</td><td class="lowNum">4.03</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.027</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">155</td><td class="lowNum">4.10</td><td class="lowNum">4</td><td class="lowNum">.026</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Spiky Bits; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">6x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">157</td><td class="lowNum">4.41</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">165</td><td class="lowNum">4.63</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Daemonic Talons; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1RZ 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">170</td><td class="lowNum">4.71</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 3+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">172</td><td class="lowNum">4.82</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.028</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Close Combat Weapon; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Stature; Extra CCW; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+2R 2+</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">180</td><td class="lowNum">5.15</td><td class="lowNum">5</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+1R 2+R</td></tr><tr><td class="lowNum">195</td><td class="lowNum">5.62</td><td class="lowNum">6</td><td class="lowNum">.029</td><td class="lowConfig">Chaos Lord; Paired Lightning Claws; Master-crafted Weapon; Spiky Bits; Daemonic Mutation; Daemonic Strength; Mark of Slaanesh; Combat Drugs; Daemonic Flight</td><td class="lowRoll">7x 3+2R 2+R</td></tr></tbody></table>

Regarding the last two models in the Slaaneshi Flying Lord table...

I was under the impression that models in Terminator Armour couldn't take Daemonic Flight. There's no "*" next to the Flight entry in my 3rd printing of the 'dex. Am I missing something that makes this combination legal?

Excellent Uber-geeking, Lowinor. Very Dakka. Excellent.

Not to be a big pisser and rain on your parade, but while mathematically interesting, this chart is very worthless without a large amount of external work as well. While it gives the kills mean and mode and KPP, it cannot take into account things such as the increased maneuverability that demonic speed/flight affords, the increases survivability of Aura/Armour etc. and does not take into account strengths use against higher toughness models like wraithlord or dreadnaughts. It artificially inflates the value of spiky bits and mastercrafting weapons, as well as makes the second close combat weapon worth an obscene KPP gain given its basic low cost.
This is really cool to look at before planning a charge in game, but for lord selection it suffers badly from information overload, giving too much information without a valid perspective in which to look at it.
But, still that is a lot of nerd you are putting up, and it's really nice to see someone do a very exhaustive statistical analysis of something.

@DarkHellion. As a chaos player I completely disagree with you. Actually playing a chaos army gives one the correct perspective to look at the information Lowinor has provided. I am pretty sure that everyone who reads the charts that Lowinor developed realizes that it does not include the chaos lords' toughness, manueverability or armor save.

I am really glad that you are not trying to be a big pisser nor are you trying to rain on anyone's parade. I would hate to read your posts if you were trying, Darkhellion.

Darrian
(sees the worth in these charts)

Posted By Arioc on 06/21/2006 1:40 PM
Regarding the last two models in the Slaaneshi Flying Lord table...

I was under the impression that models in Terminator Armour couldn't take Daemonic Flight. There's no "*" next to the Flight entry in my 3rd printing of the 'dex. Am I missing something that makes this combination legal?

Oops.  You are exactly correct, I managed to omit that flag in my testing, I'll replace them shortly.

Posted By DarkHellion on 06/21/2006 3:18 PM
Not to be a big pisser and rain on your parade, but while mathematically interesting, this chart is very worthless without a large amount of external work as well. While it gives the kills mean and mode and KPP, it cannot take into account things such as the increased maneuverability that demonic speed/flight affords, the increases survivability of Aura/Armour etc. and does not take into account strengths use against higher toughness models like wraithlord or dreadnaughts. It artificially inflates the value of spiky bits and mastercrafting weapons, as well as makes the second close combat weapon worth an obscene KPP gain given its basic low cost.
This is really cool to look at before planning a charge in game, but for lord selection it suffers badly from information overload, giving too much information without a valid perspective in which to look at it.
But, still that is a lot of nerd you are putting up, and it's really nice to see someone do a very exhaustive statistical analysis of something.

Well, for the most part, the point is that it directly quantifies what can be directly quantified -- raw killing power.  When I pick out lords, by and large, I pick movement and defensive options first, and then decide how many points to invest into raw killing power.  The point of the charts is to provide a reference for making that -- and only that -- decision.

Would you care to back up your assertion that it artificially inflates the value of Spiky Bits and Master-crafting?  The actual value of said wargear is pretty directly posted above.  And yes, the second close combat weapon is a huge KPP boost when taken.  That's pretty much to be expected, as when you take one, you're pretty much getting +1A for 1 point, which is a hell of a deal.

Posted By DarkHellion on 06/21/2006 3:18 PM
Not to be a big pisser and rain on your parade, but while mathematically interesting, this chart is very worthless without a large amount of external work as well. While it gives the kills mean and mode and KPP, it cannot take into account things such as the increased maneuverability that demonic speed/flight affords, the increases survivability of Aura/Armour etc. and does not take into account strengths use against higher toughness models like wraithlord or dreadnaughts. It artificially inflates the value of spiky bits and mastercrafting weapons, as well as makes the second close combat weapon worth an obscene KPP gain given its basic low cost.
This is really cool to look at before planning a charge in game, but for lord selection it suffers badly from information overload, giving too much information without a valid perspective in which to look at it.
But, still that is a lot of nerd you are putting up, and it's really nice to see someone do a very exhaustive statistical analysis of something.

Since he just seems to be focusing on points per kill, and adds the flight in to see how much it drags that poitn average down, it would be up to the player to decide if those upgrades are worth it for the mobility. If players are not able to decide wether the maneuverability is worth it to get into combat in the first place, or to add an extra round then they probably won't use it right if it was able to be quantified.

Of course it is also clearly stated at the beginning of the thread that these are meant for the majority of tourny opponents, which are space marines. A lightning clawed termi lord won't kill any more IG than Space Marines, but he won't wound a Wraithlord either without other upgrades. The possiblities would make this too much to be helpful to most players, look how much info he has put into it already!

I give the OP props for putting something like this up, it will help me with weapon selection, and I can base the other needs on my own.

interesting stuff