Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The rules for reinforcements says that units which arrive as reinforcements cannot move for any reason. The drop pod arrives as reinforcements at the end of the movement phase, but do the units inside count as reinforcements, or disembarking from a transport ? Can a psyker who disembarked from a drop pod move in the psychic phase with a psychic power ? I would say yes, because you cant shoot a unit disembarking from a drop pod with stratagems like Early Warning Override, Ever Vigilant, or Auspex Scan. Which implies that disembarking units arent reinforcements, because you can only target a unit which arrives as reinforcements with those stratagems.

Some rules – such as Early Warning Override in Codex: T’au
Empire, the Ever Vigilant Stratagem in Codex: Adeptus
Custodes, and the Auspex Scan Stratagem in Codex: Space
Marines – allow units to shoot at enemy units that have just
arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements, as if it were the
Shooting phase.
Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements is a Character,
can the firing unit shoot at it even if it is not the closest
enemy unit?
A: No – unless the firing unit is using a weapon that
allows them to target a Character even if it is not the
closest enemy unit. This takes place ‘as if it were the
Shooting phase’, so all the normal restrictions of the
Shooting phase still apply.
Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements has another unit
embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been
set up (such as units embarked within a Drop Pod, or
a Tyrannocyte), can the firing unit shoot at the unit as
it disembarks?
A: No – though the unit can shoot at the Drop Pod/
Tyrannocyte before the units inside disembark.

Blood Angel Codex Page 122 wrote:Drop Pod Assault... At the end of any of your Movement phases this model can perform a drop pod assault – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models. Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark

Models that disembark can not move further in that movement phase because the pod is set up At the end of your Movement phase.

Battle primer Reinforcements section Page 3 wrote:
Reinforcements
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn.

If the unit inside was "set up on the battlefield mid-turn" and "Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase" then those units "cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"

(However GW can not seem to write clear rules as it says cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive but then says "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" Implying that they meant that units cannot move or Advance further during the Movement phase the turn they arrive, so in context, the restriction should be on that particular movement phase and not the whole turn).

My question was if a psyker can move if he manifests a psychic power which allows him to move in the psychic phase. If the unit disembarking counts as reinforcements they cant move for any reason. If the unit disembarking counts as disembarking from a transport they can act normally the rest of the turn. Therefore the psyker could move in the psychic phase.

They count as reinforcements since they were not on the table at the beginning of the turn.
So they can't move any further on the turn in which they arrive.

Yeah, this is not allowed. Argued about the meaning of end of the phase all over the place for a few months. Passengers are reinforcements too, they are arriving at the end of the movement phase. The rules about Warptime mechanics on reinforcements apply.

A little bit about why it's bad.

At the start of 8th edition, I would deep strike Noise Marines with a Kharybdis Assault Claw, then use Warptime on the Claw to charge vehicles.

It was a killer tactic but, in retrospect, I can see how what I was doing was OP. The base was big enough to tie up a ton of models at a time, and the melta cutters did enough damage to eat Razorbacks. The 15 inch move let me jump screens and sometimes I was going after characters as well. The KAC should be good, but not devastating.

When they FAQed the rule to prevent deep striking on first turn, I went back to the Claw for a bit and loaded up with 20 Berzerkers and a Terminator Sorcerer with Warptime. I would Warptime one squad of Zerks to get a guaranteed charge and the rest had the Icon of Wrath for rerolls. Typically, 3 squads would get in and opponents would not have a way to shoot back. Sometimes my guys would just consolidate into unit after unit and chew through their opponent without any serious opposition. Somtimes they would get kited all game after the initial charge without killing anything else. Deep strike should be a powerful tactic, but not something this 'viral' - where a single action causes a reaction that causes the other army to respond as a whole.

There has to be some risk to deep striking, there should be no guaranteed charges when you drop that close. At the very least this ability should be rare, it's a little too powerful when you can just use it on any unit.

fresus wrote:
They count as reinforcements since they were not on the table at the beginning of the turn.
So they can't move any further on the turn in which they arrive.

p5freak has shown the counter to the statement that they count as reinforcements; if they did then they could be picked off with the Warning Override, Ever Vigilant, Auspex Scan, etc. type of stratagems that let you shoot at something that just arrived on the board as a reinforcement. The FAQ clearly states that they cannot be targeted, so it appears they are not being treated as reinforcements but merely as a unit that is disembarking from a vehicle.

 doctortom wrote:

fresus wrote:
They count as reinforcements since they were not on the table at the beginning of the turn.
So they can't move any further on the turn in which they arrive.

p5freak has shown the counter to the statement that they count as reinforcements; if they did then they could be picked off with the Warning Override, Ever Vigilant, Auspex Scan, etc. type of stratagems that let you shoot at something that just arrived on the board as a reinforcement. The FAQ clearly states that they cannot be targeted, so it appears they are not being treated as reinforcements but merely as a unit that is disembarking from a vehicle.

Or it's just a timing thing as the unit is still inside the drop pod when you must use those stratagems (i.e., Auspex Scan must be used "... immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements...").

 doctortom wrote:

fresus wrote:
They count as reinforcements since they were not on the table at the beginning of the turn.
So they can't move any further on the turn in which they arrive.

p5freak has shown the counter to the statement that they count as reinforcements; if they did then they could be picked off with the Warning Override, Ever Vigilant, Auspex Scan, etc. type of stratagems that let you shoot at something that just arrived on the board as a reinforcement. The FAQ clearly states that they cannot be targeted, so it appears they are not being treated as reinforcements but merely as a unit that is disembarking from a vehicle.

The fact something cannot be targeted as a reinforcement simply means it cannot be targeted. That doesn't mean it's not a reinforcement.

Some rules are in place for the sake of common sense. Consider the converse. If a vehicle is already on the board, passengers cannot be targeted before they disembark. Why would that not apply in the case of reinforcements?

Mechanically, the rules that allow units to target reinforcements arriving on the battlefield apply during the movement phase. Reinforcements arrive at the end of the movement phase. Disembarking from a unit that has arrived from reserve happens as a last step, before moving to the psychic phase. There's not an endless series of sub-phases that occur at the end of the movement phase, there's a terminal point that occurs when reinforcements arrive, after which the movement phase is over.

So the FAQ is either clarification that you cannot target them as they did not come from Reserves, or a special ruling that they are protected from such things. But the FAQ isn't clear on which of these two it is.

So the FAQ doesn't help answer this question.

 Ghaz wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

fresus wrote:
They count as reinforcements since they were not on the table at the beginning of the turn.
So they can't move any further on the turn in which they arrive.

p5freak has shown the counter to the statement that they count as reinforcements; if they did then they could be picked off with the Warning Override, Ever Vigilant, Auspex Scan, etc. type of stratagems that let you shoot at something that just arrived on the board as a reinforcement. The FAQ clearly states that they cannot be targeted, so it appears they are not being treated as reinforcements but merely as a unit that is disembarking from a vehicle.

Or it's just a timing thing as the unit is still inside the drop pod when you must use those stratagems (i.e., Auspex Scan must be used "... immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements...").

The problem there is that units in a transport are not considered on the battlefield - remember, a unit embarking into a transport is first removed from the table, so it isn't on the table while embarked. That would mean they would be put on the table when they disembark, which would still seem to qualify for "Auspex Scan at that point if they counted as reinforcements and not just as disembarking from a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The fact something cannot be targeted as a reinforcement simply means it cannot be targeted. That doesn't mean it's not a reinforcement.

If you have something that lets you target reinforcements but are told that you can't target a certain unit, then the unit doesn't meet the definition of reinforcement at the time you are targeting it - when it disembarks.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Some rules are in place for the sake of common sense. Consider the converse. If a vehicle is already on the board, passengers cannot be targeted before they disembark. Why would that not apply in the case of reinforcements?

But the strategem would allow you to target them as they disembark if they are reinforcements. Using common sense, as you say, at the point where they disembark they are not treated as reinforcements in order for the FAQ to prohibit them from being targeted.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Mechanically, the rules that allow units to target reinforcements arriving on the battlefield apply during the movement phase. Reinforcements arrive at the end of the movement phase. Disembarking from a unit that has arrived from reserve happens as a last step, before moving to the psychic phase. There's not an endless series of sub-phases that occur at the end of the movement phase, there's a terminal point that occurs when reinforcements arrive, after which the movement phase is over.

The "last step" argument doesn't wash here since the stratagems already let you target things arriving at the end of the movement phase, terminator units deep striking for example. You could shoot the pod using the stratagem and theoretically the pod is a "last step" thing like other stuff landing at the end of the phase, except there's another specific end of the movement phase after it for the people to emerge. If they are reinforements as well you should be able to target them as easily as if you were just having a normal unit arriving as a reinforcement at the end of the phase.

GW could still see it as a timing issue as there is a step between arriving as reinforcements and being placed on the battlefield (i.e., disembarking from the drop pod).

 techsoldaten wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

fresus wrote:
They count as reinforcements since they were not on the table at the beginning of the turn.
So they can't move any further on the turn in which they arrive.

p5freak has shown the counter to the statement that they count as reinforcements; if they did then they could be picked off with the Warning Override, Ever Vigilant, Auspex Scan, etc. type of stratagems that let you shoot at something that just arrived on the board as a reinforcement. The FAQ clearly states that they cannot be targeted, so it appears they are not being treated as reinforcements but merely as a unit that is disembarking from a vehicle.

The fact something cannot be targeted as a reinforcement simply means it cannot be targeted. That doesn't mean it's not a reinforcement.

Some rules are in place for the sake of common sense. Consider the converse. If a vehicle is already on the board, passengers cannot be targeted before they disembark. Why would that not apply in the case of reinforcements?

Mechanically, the rules that allow units to target reinforcements arriving on the battlefield apply during the movement phase. Reinforcements arrive at the end of the movement phase. Disembarking from a unit that has arrived from reserve happens as a last step, before moving to the psychic phase. There's not an endless series of sub-phases that occur at the end of the movement phase, there's a terminal point that occurs when reinforcements arrive, after which the movement phase is over.

I agree with everything you're saying, except that design paradigm has been thrown out of the window with Orks.

8" charge rerolling 1 or both dice? You expect to make it more often than not. And 30 bodies that are far, far, faaaaar more lethal than anything in the CSM codex.

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Some rules are in place for the sake of common sense. Consider the converse. If a vehicle is already on the board, passengers cannot be targeted before they disembark. Why would that not apply in the case of reinforcements?

But the strategem would allow you to target them as they disembark if they are reinforcements. Using common sense, as you say, at the point where they disembark they are not treated as reinforcements in order for the FAQ to prohibit them from being targeted.

I don't know man, that sounds like we're splitting hairs over what to call them. Haven't seen a rule suggesting reinforcements disembarking from a transport can be targeted.

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Mechanically, the rules that allow units to target reinforcements arriving on the battlefield apply during the movement phase. Reinforcements arrive at the end of the movement phase. Disembarking from a unit that has arrived from reserve happens as a last step, before moving to the psychic phase. There's not an endless series of sub-phases that occur at the end of the movement phase, there's a terminal point that occurs when reinforcements arrive, after which the movement phase is over.

The "last step" argument doesn't wash here since the stratagems already let you target things arriving at the end of the movement phase, terminator units deep striking for example. You could shoot the pod using the stratagem and theoretically the pod is a "last step" thing like other stuff landing at the end of the phase, except there's another specific end of the movement phase after it for the people to emerge. If they are reinforements as well you should be able to target them as easily as if you were just having a normal unit arriving as a reinforcement at the end of the phase.

Not sure if I see where you are going.

Terminators arrive via teleport strike. Passengers in a drop pod have a lot of armor around them from being shot at until they disembark.

If it was possible to shoot a unit in a transport when it was on the table, I would agree with you. But it's not.

 techsoldaten wrote:


If it was possible to shoot a unit in a transport when it was on the table, I would agree with you. But it's not.

You are missing the point. If a unit that disembarks from a transport counts as reinforcements it could be targeted by those stratagems. But the FAQ says no. Thus, a disembarking unit doesnt count as reinforcements.

 Marmatag wrote:
I agree with everything you're saying, except that design paradigm has been thrown out of the window with Orks.

8" charge rerolling 1 or both dice? You expect to make it more often than not. And 30 bodies that are far, far, faaaaar more lethal than anything in the CSM codex.

Quite frankly, given the way Orks worked pre-FAQ, I applaud any attempts by GW to make them more lethal. 'Green Tide' meant to me that flurry when an opponent removes so many models from the table each turn.

I wouldn't say they are more lethal than anything in the CSM Codex, they still need to get close enough to charge. More wounds than Berzerkers but similar delivery problem.

Plus, Chaos just got a significant buff with the beta bolter rule. For example, Chaos Rhinos now fire 8 shots at 24 inches with double combi-bolters all the time. I've been maxing out on combi-bolters in test games and achieving good results.

Back on topic: I've not played too many games against Orks since the Codex dropped. What's the delivery mechanic that lets them deep strike?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


If it was possible to shoot a unit in a transport when it was on the table, I would agree with you. But it's not.

You are missing the point. If a unit that disembarks from a transport counts as reinforcements it could be targeted by those stratagems. But the FAQ says no. Thus, a disembarking unit doesnt count as reinforcements.

That was my point.

I'm just saying I agree with it because it makes common sense.

 techsoldaten wrote:

That was my point.

I'm just saying I agree with it because it makes common sense.

Oh, ok. Sorry, i misunderstood.


So, the conclusion is the psyker can move in the psychic phase, if he successfully manifests the power that lets him move ?

 p5freak wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

That was my point.

I'm just saying I agree with it because it makes common sense.

Oh, ok. Sorry, i misunderstood.


So, the conclusion is the psyker can move in the psychic phase, if he successfully manifests the power that lets him move ?

Ah, whoops. Misread the last sentence.

The unit arriving is still arriving from reinforcements, thus no. Would be nice if it worked that way, but it would be OP.

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase" then those units "cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"

(However GW can not seem to write clear rules as it says cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive but then says "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" Implying that they meant that units cannot move or Advance further during the Movement phase the turn they arrive, so in context, the restriction should be on that particular movement phase and not the whole turn).

The Craftworld Eldar used to use Quicken to move WebWay units closer for a chance to charge. With the Above referenced FAQ it was understood that THAT was no longer possible.

AS to whether if the occupants are Reinforcements or not. That seems WordyWordPLay. They are not on the Table even in a Vehicle and even if a troop unit is in a Flyer for board presence and Control.

So they are What? Just like any other unit that is embarked....whaterver that classification is.

 techsoldaten wrote:

The unit arriving is still arriving from reinforcements, thus no. Would be nice if it worked that way, but it would be OP.

Surely you can provide a rule citation that units that disembark from a transport count as reinforcements ? Im pretty sure you cant.

I have provided a FAQ citation that supports my argument that they dont count as reinforcements, they simply disembark from a transport, therefore can act normally.

Drop Pods are an unusual case because GW can't get their definitions straight or FAQ things properly.

By all rights any unit that disembarks from any transport are Reinforcements according to the rule, but the Transport rules give them special permission to "act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn", which includes being Warptimed et. al.

So while you cannot move the unit after disembarking from the Drop Pod (because there is no longer any time in the Movement Phase to do so), you can indeed Warptime them to move further that turn because the Transport rules permit it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Drop Pods are an unusual case because GW can't get their definitions straight or FAQ things properly.

By all rights any unit that disembarks from any transport are Reinforcements according to the rule, but the Transport rules give them special permission to "act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn", which includes being Warptimed et. al.

So while you cannot move the unit after disembarking from the Drop Pod (because there is no longer any time in the Movement Phase to do so), you can indeed Warptime them to move further that turn because the Transport rules permit it.

This would apply to any transport which arrives as reinforcements and has unit(s) disembarking.

Most units cannot disembark the turn the unit arrives.

Also, how limited is "act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn"?

Say there were a rule "This unit cannot be targetted in the Shooting phase" - surely disembarking from a Transport wouldn't magically allow you to shoot such a target?

The only reasonable definition of "Act Normally" I can come up with is "As if the rule this directly applies to were not in effect". In that case, "Acting normally" when disembarking a Transport on the turn you Deep Struck would mean not being restricted due to having been embarked - and would not impact any restrictions based on being Deep Struck.

So how do you define "Act Normally"?

Act normally means they get to do what any other unit on the battlefield can do (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.).

But what other units on the battlefield can move via Quicken/Warp Time on the turn they arrive?

Bharring wrote:
But what other units on the battlefield can move via Quicken/Warp Time on the turn they arrive?

Any unit that disembarks from a transport. It doesnt matter if the transport arrived as reinforcements (if the transport allows them to disembark after arriving), or is already on the battlefield, because the transport rule says they can act normally.

But define "normally"?

Defining "Normally" as like "any unit that disembarks from a Transport" in regards to disembarkation rules is literally circular.

To try to illustrate the point another way: You deepstrike a pod, then disembark. IN the Shooting round, you fire a heavy weapon. Does 'Act Normally' allow you to ignore the '-1-to-hit' penalty for having moved? Why would it ignore the Deep Strike rule but not that rule?

No because the rules for disembarking tell you that you count as having moved for any rules purposes.

It's not ignoring any rules by having Warptime cast on it.

By "ignoring", I mean "treat as being unaffected", and the rule that prevents WarpTime from being cast on things from reserve is the rule.

Bharring wrote:
By "ignoring", I mean "treat as being unaffected", and the rule that prevents WarpTime from being cast on things from reserve is the rule.

The rule does no such thing. There is no concept of "reserves" in 40k outside of special mission rules. "Reinforcements" has a very specific meaning and units that disembark from a Drop Pod (or any transport for that matter), while satisfying that meaning, have special permission via the Transport rules to ignore that restriction.

The guys in the drop pod are arriving from reserves when the drop pod arrives. Therefore, they're reinforcements. When they and their transport arrive, Auspex allows you to shoot - but since the passengers are not yet disembarked, you can't target them. Afterwards the passengers disembark and are placed on the table. They're at that point simply disembarking and not currently "arriving from reserves", so no Auspex. But they're still reinforcements.

That's how I read it, so it's how I'd play it.