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nekooni wrote:
The guys in the drop pod are arriving from reserves when the drop pod arrives. Therefore, they're reinforcements.

That is not what Reinforcements are. Please read the BRB. There is no such thing as "Arriving from Reserves" outside of mission special rules.

Nekooni has the intent of the rules stated, but the semantics of what BaconCatBug are RAW.

I think most of us play it in our minds like Nekooni said.
However the rule is written so that that isn't true for every situation....just most.

Q: When I manifest the Warptime psychic power, can I select a
unit that arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements this turn?
A: No.

 quickfuze wrote:
Q: When I manifest the Warptime psychic power, can I select a
unit that arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements this turn?
A: No.

So then you're saying that any unit that disembarks cannot be targeted by Warptime? As long as you're consistent I guess.

So now we have an issue where one rule is saying "No, you may not" and another rule is explicitly saying "Yes, you may". The Transport rules explicitly state that a unit that disembarks may act normally, including moving.

Can anyone show ANY printed rules that states that Embarked units are Reinforcements?

It seems obvious that they are...but in the rules....does it actually say that anywhere???

Unless you can find it then BaconCatBug has it right.

 admironheart wrote:
Can anyone show ANY printed rules that states that Embarked units are Reinforcements?

It seems obvious that they are...but in the rules....does it actually say that anywhere???

Unless you can find it then BaconCatBug has it right.

8 Pages Of Rules.meme

It's literally the first line of the Reinforcements rule. A unit that disembarks is "set up on the battlefield mid-turn" and thus meets the definition of Reinforcements. Is it stupid that disembarking units meet this criteria? Yes, but that is what the rule literally says.

So, a disembarked unit counts as reinforcements, but has special permission to act normally, but can't cast warptime ? Wow Good thing I play BA with wings of Slamguinius

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The guys in the drop pod are arriving from reserves when the drop pod arrives. Therefore, they're reinforcements.

That is not what Reinforcements are. Please read the BRB. There is no such thing as "Arriving from Reserves" outside of mission special rules.

Sorry, I should have made it clearer that I'm talking about my interpretation of the situation and HIWPI, not strict RAW.

Ive read the BRB, it's just that I do not take it literal simply because you end up with a broken pile of gak otherwise.

Here's the other thing as well...BCB can say whatever he wants, but if you go to any major tournament, you're not moving those guys after they get out of a drop pod.

"[units in pods] while satisfying that meaning, have special permission via the Transport rules to ignore that"
The part you're referring to is 'act normally'. It comes down to "Where is 'act normally' defined?"

"A unit that disembarks is "set up on the battlefield mid-turn" and thus meets the definition of Reinforcements."
There are two criteria; being set up mid-turn, and using a special rule to be set aside during deployment; units in transports set up on the table don't meet the second criteria.

Back to 'act normally' - when they shoot at a unit that has a -1-to-hit modifier (such as Lightning Quick Reflexes), would you argue 'act normally' allows them to ignore that rule? What, about the Transport rules, allows you to ignore the Reinforcements rules but not the hit-penalty rules?

Bharring wrote:
"[units in pods] while satisfying that meaning, have special permission via the Transport rules to ignore that"
The part you're referring to is 'act normally'. It comes down to "Where is 'act normally' defined?"

Literally the next three words. "(shoot, charge, etc.)"

But what constitutes 'normally'?

If you had a model that is permitted to charge 15" based on a rule on it's datasheet, and it disembarks, can it now only charge 12"?

Normally, when shooting a Tac Marine at 20" away, you hit on a 3+. But they're Raven Guard. So if you disembark do you hit on a 3+ or a 4+?

Isn't moving "normally", for units that arrived as reinforcements that turn, to not be movable via Warp Time?

Bharring wrote:
But what constitutes 'normally'?

The base rules allowing a unit to shoot charge and etc...

If you had a model that is permitted to charge 15" based on a rule on it's datasheet, and it disembarks, can it now only charge 12"?

No, since a 15 inch charge is a normal charge for that unit...

Normally, when shooting a Tac Marine at 20" away, you hit on a 3+. But they're Raven Guard. So if you disembark do you hit on a 3+ or a 4+?

Not familar with raven guard, but you would take all shooting rules into account.

Isn't moving "normally", for units that arrived as reinforcements that turn, to not be movable via Warp Time?

No?

Moving normally refers to moving in the movement phase. Psychic powers refer to the Psychic phase.

"Moving normally refers to moving in the movement phase."
If that were true, then why would moving 'normally' due to disembarking from a Transport allow you to be WarpTimed in the Psykic phase? That is what this thread is about.

"No, since a 15 inch charge is a normal charge for that unit"
Why is a 15" charge normal for that unit, but being unable to be moved further after arriving from Reserves not normal for that unit?

There is no literal or inherent link between the Disembark rule and the Reinforcements rule. As such, why does the Disembark rule explicitly mean you can ignore the Reinforcement rule and not other rules?

That link is what I'm missing.

If they're being treated as reinforcements you would be able to use Auspex scan on them when they disembark. We have FAQs stating that you can't use that or similar stratagems, so at the time of disembarking they are not treated as reinforcements.

I don't see where the FAQ explains why they ruled as they did.

Easy. GW, in their mind, does not consider units disembarking from a Transport to be Reinforcements. They consistently rule this way in any rules answer they give. Unfortunately, they have yet to spell this out in either Errata or as an FAQ explanation.

 alextroy wrote:
Easy. GW, in their mind, does not consider units disembarking from a Transport to be Reinforcements. They consistently rule this way in any rules answer they give. Unfortunately, they have yet to spell this out in either Errata or as an FAQ explanation.

That's your opinion on what their intentions are with the FAQ, nothing more.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Can anyone show ANY printed rules that states that Embarked units are Reinforcements?

It seems obvious that they are...but in the rules....does it actually say that anywhere???

Unless you can find it then BaconCatBug has it right.

8 Pages Of Rules.meme

It's literally the first line of the Reinforcements rule. A unit that disembarks is "set up on the battlefield mid-turn" and thus meets the definition of Reinforcements. Is it stupid that disembarking units meet this criteria? Yes, but that is what the rule literally says.

At first, i love your posts, big fan here

but you didnt read the whole text about Reinforcements.

"Many units have the
ability to be set up on
the battlefield mid-turn,
sometimes by using
teleporters, grav chutes or
other, more esoteric means.(Sitting in a rhino is not that "esoteric")
Typically, this happens at
the end of the Movement (answer to it all disembarking happens at the "start of the movementphase" befor Transports moves)
phase, but it can also
happen during other
phases. "


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Next fact that units in transports that are on the battlefield didnt count as Reinforcements.

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc.,(=all of this kind but not units in transports) in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield)(=here you see that their points count as all other deployed units, so they are deployed and not Reinforcements that wait to arrive midgame) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.


But yeah Marines in Droppods are Reinforcements, because of the special rule of the droppod.

 Ghaz wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Easy. GW, in their mind, does not consider units disembarking from a Transport to be Reinforcements. They consistently rule this way in any rules answer they give. Unfortunately, they have yet to spell this out in either Errata or as an FAQ explanation.

That's your opinion on what their intentions are with the FAQ, nothing more.

Any yet it explains everything so nicely.

Am I reading their mind? No.
Is it the most plausible explanation for their rulings? Yes.

 alextroy wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Easy. GW, in their mind, does not consider units disembarking from a Transport to be Reinforcements. They consistently rule this way in any rules answer they give. Unfortunately, they have yet to spell this out in either Errata or as an FAQ explanation.

That's your opinion on what their intentions are with the FAQ, nothing more.

Any yet it explains everything so nicely.

Am I reading their mind? No.
Is it the most plausible explanation for their rulings? Yes.

And yet it has absolutely no more to support it than those who are saying that the embarked units are reinforcements.

"Easy. GW, in their mind, does not consider units disembarking from a Transport to be Reinforcements. They consistently rule this way in any rules answer they give. Unfortunately, they have yet to spell this out in either Errata or as an FAQ explanation."

The FAQ/Errata spells out, explicitly, that units that exit drop pods can't be targetted.

Possible reason #1:
This is an FAQ, making it clear they can't be targetted - this is because they are not *reinforcements*.

Possible reason #2:
This is an Errata, because podded reinforcements are protected by the pod itself - so it'd be silly to be able to intercept the reinforcing squad inside.

Possible reason #3:
This is an FAQ, making it clear they can't be targetted - they are reinforcements, but action sequencing doesn't provide an opportunity.

The FAQ doesn't spell out which of the above 3 reasons. So alternate assumed reasons for the FAQ would either make it obvious that they're reinforcements or make it obvious that they are not. So, absent clarification, this line of reasoning doesn't provide a concrete answer.

Pretty sure units in transports count as "on" the battle field.

You are essentially using a Wobbly model syndrome effect to leave them off the table because you cant physically (usually) fit the correct amount of models into your transports.

dreadlybrew wrote:
Pretty sure units in transports count as "on" the battle field.

You are essentially using a Wobbly model syndrome effect to leave them off the table because you cant physically (usually) fit the correct amount of models into your transports.

Pretty sure you are 100% wrong. Read the core rules. It literally says you remove the embarked unit from the battlefield.

Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a
friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit
from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked
inside the transport.

 p5freak wrote:

dreadlybrew wrote:
Pretty sure units in transports count as "on" the battle field.

You are essentially using a Wobbly model syndrome effect to leave them off the table because you cant physically (usually) fit the correct amount of models into your transports.

Pretty sure you are 100% wrong. Read the core rules. It literally says you remove the embarked unit from the battlefield.

Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a
friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit
from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked
inside the transport.

They still count as deployed and arent reinforcements.
Just read the rule of Tactical Reserves again.
A unit need a special rule(or strat or special rules from another unit) to be in the reinforcement "zone".

The transport rules are not special rules.

Skullphoquer wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

dreadlybrew wrote:
Pretty sure units in transports count as "on" the battle field.

You are essentially using a Wobbly model syndrome effect to leave them off the table because you cant physically (usually) fit the correct amount of models into your transports.

Pretty sure you are 100% wrong. Read the core rules. It literally says you remove the embarked unit from the battlefield.

Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a
friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit
from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked
inside the transport.

They still count as deployed and arent reinforcements.

The argument was that a unit in a transport is "on the battlefield", and according to the Embarkation rules it clearly isn't "on the battlefield". dreadlybrew was simply wrong.

Just read the rule of Tactical Reserves again.
A unit need a special rule(or strat or special rules from another unit) to be in the reinforcement "zone".

The transport rules are not special rules.

So... where exactly was the Drop Pod with it's passengers before being deployed? Just following your logic here - doesn't that mean that the passengers were also in the "reinforcement zone" - assuming such a thing exists?

Just so we're clear: I also think of "the reinforcement zone" as some place off the battlefield where reinforcements are, such as "on the battlecruiser in orbit" - and units that come in from there via Drop Pod or Teleporter are clearly "reinforcements". But I don't think there's such a thing in the actual rules as written, is there?

If the passengers don't count as being on the battlefield when their transport is on the battlefield, then do they really count as being in the "reinforcement zone" when their transport is in the "reinforcement zone"?

Once a transport is on the battlefield the units inside must be treated as being just like those in any other transport on the battlefield, or you’d need special rules if they’re to be treated differently. As we aren’t given any rules to say ‘treat those disembarking from a Drop Pod differently from other disembarkations’ other than the ones allowing them to do so immediately, there are none. In absence of special rules follow the core rules. It doesn’t matter where the models were located before, where they are now is key here.

"It doesn’t matter where the models were located before, where they are now is key here."
If that were true, then you could WarpTime a deepstruck unit - as "where they are now" is on the table.

Clearly, the rules say you can't - so the rules must be based on more than "where they are now".

Specifically, the rules say whether or not they were Reinforcements is key, not where they are now.

ups, i missed the topic...
i though you talking about the old theme units in transports are reinforcements.

but you diskus if the berzerkers from the dread claw can get a warp time or not.
The answer to that is no because they are reinforcements but cant be intercepted due to the errata.