Observations of a new player

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Knightofday33**

Hi all, I’m a new blood angels player and just want to share my thoughts so far and see what others think. I read the recent “marine fix” thread and I agree with something’s. Mostly I’m of the opinion the base line space marine should have 2 wounds. I’m just going to make a list of things that concern me about the game at large and see what the public’s thought are?

1. Is this game supposed to be balanced? If I didn’t do blood angels I was going to do grey knights so I’m actually kind of thankful.

2. What’s up with overwatch? If I’m going to charge you get some shots for me running at you, ok fine. With 1 wound models and things that auto hit this can get bad in some cases or some good rolls and I lose half my unit. But then units that got into close combat can just walk away? Without the unit who they are in close combat getting any attacks? And their friends just shoot the crap out of you?

3. Living on a 9” charge, disappearing black rage and red thirst. I’m forced to go big or go off the table turn 2. If I can’t make a charge it’s over. If you don’t run away from my unit and fight me into the next turn I lose the black rage, and the red thirst for not charging or getting changed. Meanwhile time after time I’m getting deep striked by units that have some crazy killer gun that massacres me. So my opponent doesn’t even have to charge to kill me.

I’ve got a few more issues but in closing what I’ve seen so far leads me to believe I mostly just have a much smaller margin of error then other armies. It just seems like the guys I’m going against have more reliable tactics then me. Any thoughts?

**Shas'O'Ceris**

Welcome to 40K! The general thoughts that get around are that the game is supposed to be balanced (from the view of competitive and pug players), or that it's not supposed to have any balance at all (so narrative games that aren't supposed to be winnable can be fun?), and that GW tends to be in the latter camp but will sometimes throw a token bone at the former (with misconceived notions).

According to GW this edition is the most CC viable! We all know that's not a great statement for the reasons you've mentioned. But changing it doesn't look like something GW will take care of anytime soon. They've been in an add content of inconsistent quality and don't fix things bend.

Deepstrike is bad imo. Not always, it works well for some shooty glass cannons without range. But for CC it works for those buffed to the teeth for it and little else. I'm of the opinion that the current rules were not anticipated and are a step overboard. Hence deepstriking long range high power infantry in shadowspear.

There will be plenty of opposing viewpoints here, some diehard GW supporters that are super optimisic and will tell you to enjoy the dirt you are made to eat each nerf, there are critics (hi) who groan at each missed opportunity to make things better, pessimists that want their army to be best at all others expense, and everything in between. Anticipate being told to play against people who will make intentionally bad lists to match yours in "power". If you can that's pretty nice actually, otherwise check out the tactica forums and some net lists. May your dice roll marginally positive.

Edit: oh yeah, and check if your local players have a communication hub like a discord server or facebook group. Chatting with a prospective opponent ahead of time can clear up intentions and open the possibility of non-standard missions if you're into that.

**JNAProductions**

1) It is.

2) It's why shooting is generally preferred over melee. Not the only reason, but one of them.

3) Yup, basically.

Melee is pretty crap, for most units, in 40k. Sadly.

**Knightofday33**

Lately I’ve been running infantry only lists, and had some success. Whenever I put a tank on the table it only gets one turn of decent shooting if it can even target anything worth shooting. I think the balance of the game is in the missions rather than the armies.

I got into the game from the lore, of course I had some misconceptions. After they nerfed the flying charge, which I agree they should have done. They at least could have given the jump packs like a +2 to the charge if you have to set up 9” away.

**cLrK**

Look up how to trap units in combat by surrounding a single model. It prevents the entire unit from falling back.

Search Sean Nayden's youtube channel (he is a consistent top performer at large events) for visual demonstrations. The channel is called Battle Brothers: 40k talk with Sean and Juice.

**Horst**

Yea, blood angels have some issues. I have a large blood angels army from 5th edition, when I came back to play 8th edition I took a look at their new rules and started a Guard army....

What units do you have? Blood Angels can do some cool things, but they really need allies to help cover some of their weaknesses.

As far as balance goes, there are definite "winners" and "losers" in this edition, and a lot of armies in the midground. Unfortunately power armor armies and necrons appear to be at the bottom of the power totem pole. It feels less balanced than I remember it being in 5th edition, but that might just be rose colored glasses.

**auticus**

Its as balanced as its always been. That being... not really. If winning matters to you then you collect one of the power armies. If winning doesn't matter to you then its not a big deal.

**Knightofday33**

cLrK wrote:
Look up how to trap units in combat by surrounding a single model. It prevents the entire unit from falling back.

I’ll check out the channel, I’ve pulled that tactic a few times it’s always available. I’ve also been able to multi charge my blob of death company and tied up a few tanks, but these kind of tactics are not so reliable. Takes a few things to go right to off, here’s one of my lists, I have most of the models in the codex, but no flyers:

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [131 PL, 2001pts, 15CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [12CP]

Gametype

Use Beta Rules

+ HQ +

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: 2. Artisan of War, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord

Vindicare Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 160pts]: 1. Quickening, 3. Shield of Sanguinius, 6. Wings of Sanguinus

Lemartes [7 PL, 100pts]

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Combat knife

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Combat knife

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Combat knife

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Combat knife

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Combat knife

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout: Boltgun
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Combat knife

+ Elites +

Company Veterans [9 PL, 121pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Company Veterans [9 PL, 140pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Inferno pistol, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Inferno pistol, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Inferno pistol, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Inferno pistol, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Inferno pistol, Storm shield

Death Company [27 PL, 348pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

+ Fast Attack +

Assault Squad [6 PL, 86pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Sergeant: Eviscerator
. 4x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword

Assault Squad [6 PL, 86pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Sergeant: Eviscerator
. 4x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword

Assault Squad [6 PL, 86pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Sergeant: Eviscerator
. 4x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 160pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun

Whirlwind [5 PL, 85pts]: Whirlwind castellan launcher

Whirlwind [5 PL, 90pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

++ Total: [131 PL, 15CP, 2001pts] ++

**Brutallica**

JNAProductions wrote:
1) It is.

2) It's why shooting is generally preferred over melee. Not the only reason, but one of them.

3) Yup, basically.

Melee is pretty crap, for most units, in 40k. Sadly.

QFT!

40k is in such a gakky state for close combat my club simply ruled

- 8" inch deep strike
- Players roll off 2D6 (flyers units get 3D6 and pick the 2 highest) against each other to leave combat.
- +1 Attack on the charge.

Still IG are main dominators, but not by much anymore, and no more turn 2 autowin for shooty armies.

**Knightofday33**

I like your house rules.

**Brutallica**

Yeah, for my club people started not showing up or just went home early, stopped painting, it was total hobby drought after people realized 8th was worse for close combat than 7th.

Hope you can get your own fix implemented for it. GW is never gonna fix it not in this edition atleast, all they do is cater to the tournament meta, and shift the power of shooty armies.

I dont want to discurage you, but you need the truth and that is pure vanilla 8th, you are royally f**ked if your army is focused around close combat and your opponents are mainly shooters and have just a small ounce of list building capability. And that is not something you deserve to realise 5000 points/dollars into your army.

**Headlss**

So the thing to know is marines are the golden boys. Marines are a shooty army. So shooty always has an advantage over choppy.

They madea mistake this edition and Marines aren't that great, power armor doesn't work great.

All that said charges are powerful becuase you get to control what they do on there turn. Shooting doesn't do that.

**Knightofday33**

Well at least it’s good that I’m hard headed, I’m well over $5000 in and that’s not including my time painting. I’m definitely going to stick with it. The only reason I don’t own a storm raven is because it’s been the popular answer to blood angel problems. Every time I see one I can’t help but think to myself “that thing should be blue”. Dice be willing I’ll have my day, even if I have to suffer for it.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Saying CC is worse than in 7th is serious hyperbole. If your enemy can simply walk away your CC unit didn't hit hard enough. Trapping, consolidating into other units, the right choice of units to fight with make you win games. Fighting against many units with fly can be tiresome, though.

Welcome to the game and the board!

**Argive**

Knightofday33 wrote:
Well at least it’s good that I’m hard headed, I’m well over $5000 in and that’s not including my time painting. I’m definitely going to stick with it. The only reason I don’t own a storm raven is because it’s been the popular answer to blood angel problems. Every time I see one I can’t help but think to myself “that thing should be blue”. Dice be willing I’ll have my day, even if I have to suffer for it.

If its in your codex... If you are not going to soup which i understand and support but also you are not willing to utilise every option at your disposal then you are handicapping yourself. The boat is a great delivery system. And wow $5000 of BA straight of the bat!?

**Brutallica**

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Saying CC is worse than in 7th is serious hyperbole. If your enemy can simply walk away your CC unit didn't hit hard enough. Trapping, consolidating into other units, the right choice of units to fight with make you win games. Fighting against many units with fly can be tiresome, though.

Welcome to the game and the board!

I think he allready found out how hyperbole your statement is.

**Kall3m0n**

I play two CC focused armies and it requires more strategy that just point at something dangerous and shoot. When it comes to fighting a shooting army, good terrain is just as important as your tactics. If you find that you're having trouble with deepstrike charges, run for cover, hug buildings, stay out of sight and run up the board. And remember that the enemy can only leave combat if they have fly, are not surrounded or are still alive. If you lose so much to overwatch, then you either need bigger units or use your opponent's dice. The most I've ever lost to an overwatch is 2 models. That includes Baneblades or one of its' variants, and Knights.

**NurglesR0T**

Headlss wrote:
So the thing to know is marines are the golden boys. Marines are a shooty army. So shooty always has an advantage over choppy.

They madea mistake this edition and Marines aren't that great, power armor doesn't work great.

All that said charges are powerful becuase you get to control what they do on there turn. Shooting doesn't do that.

This is hilarious when outside of a gulliman castle, marines are one of the worst for shooting when compared to other factions that do it twice as good for half as much points.

**Kall3m0n**

NurglesR0T wrote:
Headlss wrote:
So the thing to know is marines are the golden boys. Marines are a shooty army. So shooty always has an advantage over choppy.

They madea mistake this edition and Marines aren't that great, power armor doesn't work great.

All that said charges are powerful becuase you get to control what they do on there turn. Shooting doesn't do that.

This is hilarious when outside of a gulliman castle, marines are one of the worst for shooting when compared to other factions that do it twice as good for half as much points.

What 6-7 point model shoots twice as good as a normal tactical marine? o0

**LoftyS**

Headlss wrote:
They madea mistake this edition and Marines aren't that great, power armor doesn't work great.

Not a mistake. The binary AP system of old is hopefully gone forever. It never made sense for a heavy bolter to be just as good against power armour as a flashlight after successfully wounding.

Now the one mistake they HAVE made is to not have cover affect both to hit rolls and armour saves. If cover had even 1 point better effect on armour save in this current system it would be too much. But if it also lowered chance to hit by 1 it would hit exactly the sweetspot of balance.

**Gir Spirit Bane**

Kall3m0n wrote:
NurglesR0T wrote:
Headlss wrote:
So the thing to know is marines are the golden boys. Marines are a shooty army. So shooty always has an advantage over choppy.

They madea mistake this edition and Marines aren't that great, power armor doesn't work great.

All that said charges are powerful becuase you get to control what they do on there turn. Shooting doesn't do that.

This is hilarious when outside of a gulliman castle, marines are one of the worst for shooting when compared to other factions that do it twice as good for half as much points.

What 6-7 point model shoots twice as good as a normal tactical marine? o0

I think Devilgaunt (Devourer termagant) has a decent run for his money, maybe not quite double but 8 points for a lot of dakka and rerolling 1's to wound for large units (hell, do 1 devourers, 10 fleshborers is 120 points for 20 bodies who are very likely to outshoot the marineS)

**Slipspace**

I also play BA and feel the OP's pain. To answer your 3 points:

1. The game is supposed to be balanced. It isn't. The game can still be good but you may find some combinations of army/enemy are an uphill struggle since you're using one of the weaker Codices.

2. Overwatch is a dumb mechanic. Shooting is already powerful enough - it really doesn't need to be made any better.

3. Close combat is terrible in 8th edition. It's extremely hard to get into close combat with the things you want due to the way Deep Strike works, the changes to Fly and the ease of screening. Combined with free Fall Back, close combat is not an easy route to victory. BA suffer a lot because their whole gimmick is dropping onto the battlefield and charging in before the enemy can react. Unfortunately they're pretty terrible at it due to the CP requirements.

Note that close combat can be powerful, but you're going to need to learn a few tricks to make it so, and even then BA lack the units to use these tricks to their fullest, IME.

**A.T.**

Knightofday33 wrote:
3. Living on a 9” charge, disappearing black rage and red thirst. I’m forced to go big or go off the table turn 2.

Deep strike charge is a high risk strategy. Your opponent has no opportunity to stop it aside from fielding and sacrificing screening units (or a few stratagems), which is more difficult for the non-static gunline/chaff factions.

40k unfortunately has increased army firepower somewhat over recent editions making a conventional manoeuvrer and assault over several turns more difficult. I'd suggest more LoS blocking scenery.

With regards to BA specifically keep an eye on their auras and reroll/boost conditions. The correct combination of characters and units greatly increases their combat power whereas other combinations can be redundant.

**the_scotsman**

Yep, that definitely looks like a 2000pt list someone would build after going through a few google results and then rushing out and buying everything all at once with not enough games under their belts.

There are a couple structural problems I have with it:

1) You've got a charge reroll aura coming out of Lemartes, but only for the Death company, who you will most likely be using the 3D6" charge stratagem or (in missions like new CA where you know you'll most likely be going first) using the death company jump across the board turn 1 thing. You're shoving a total of 557 points into deep strike units that won't have any other kind of help getting in besides a CP reroll that you can do once.

That's over 1/4 of your list, dawg. With no reroll you have a 28% chance of getting in and doing anything at all.

2) In order to squeeze into the brigade detachment you take a ridiculous quantity of filler units. 2 Whirlwinds (which are your only armored units at all, meaning they'll be basically useless since they'll just eat every lascannon in your opponent's list right off the bat), and all the aforementioned jump pack units comes out to 732 points. You spent 732 points to get an extra 2CP over just having 2 battalions (you need one more HQ for the second battalion, the cheapest of which would be a lieutentant who is I think something crazy like 50pts?)

3) By going for lemartes+Smashcaptain+Huge DC blob, you are locking yourself into a stratagy where you MUST remove ALL SCREENING UNITS turn 1, because otherwise you have a grand total of 2 lascannons to kill heavy units. That 572 point block must show up turn 2 and kill tanks, or tanks aren't getting killed with your list.

For this job, I love to see the scouts. I hate to see the randos with the jump packs.

If I were to reorganize your list/strategy for a more competitive meta, it would be like this:

-Drop Whirlwinds, jump pack guys, mephiston

-Add 2nd smash captain (you have the model for it in the company vets), lieutenant with jump pack, shift to 2 battalions over 1 brigade. Possibly add a regular jump pack libby to use the +1A power on your DC or smashcaptains. Give second smashcap the special thunder hammer relic for extra damage.

On missions where you have relatively guaranteed first turn, and the enemy doesn't have much of a screen, use the 2cp stratagem to get the death company in range for a turn 1 charge and the wings of fire stratagem to get lemartes in range of them, that'll give you a solid distraction.

On missions where you don't, deep strike everything, and use 3d6 charge stratagem on whatever is the most important to get in (no overwatch captain if you have nasty overwatch to charge into, death company if you didn't kill all of the screening units and need to kill them then double attack, 2nd smash captain if you just want to maximise damage overall since everyone else gets a charge reroll)

Your goal should be to burn your CP for the alpha strike, and cripple the opposing army enough that fall back does not matter. You can do that by getting all three of your CC heavy hitters into hard targets (smashcaps will ace a tank per turn, DC should also kill a tank) or by buffing up the DC with auras+strats+psychic powers and double attacking with them.

**Lance845**

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Kall3m0n wrote:
NurglesR0T wrote:
Headlss wrote:
So the thing to know is marines are the golden boys. Marines are a shooty army. So shooty always has an advantage over choppy.

They madea mistake this edition and Marines aren't that great, power armor doesn't work great.

All that said charges are powerful becuase you get to control what they do on there turn. Shooting doesn't do that.

This is hilarious when outside of a gulliman castle, marines are one of the worst for shooting when compared to other factions that do it twice as good for half as much points.

What 6-7 point model shoots twice as good as a normal tactical marine? o0

I think Devilgaunt (Devourer termagant) has a decent run for his money, maybe not quite double but 8 points for a lot of dakka and rerolling 1's to wound for large units (hell, do 1 devourers, 10 fleshborers is 120 points for 20 bodies who are very likely to outshoot the marineS)

Gaunts have a BS 4, str 4 on devourers and 3 shots. Vs tac marines, a full unit of 30 devilgaunts (240 pts) is going to shoot 90 times. 45 will hit. 22.5 will wound. roughly 14 will be saved by armor. It takes 30 bodies with an upgrade gun to kill a single minimum sized unit of tac marines that cost a fraction of what the gaunts did. If those marines are in cover or we are talking about terminators then a little over 3 models die.

90 shots to kill 3-7 models average.

Alternatively, when you said "large numbers" that number is 20. In your unit of 10 fleshborers 10 devours the enemy only needs to kill 1 model to get rid of the rerolling 1s. Not that killing 1 model or 10 models is difficult when they have T3 and a 6+ save.

**BoomWolf**

Basically the game is supposed to be balanced, but no game is really truly balanced, and the more moving parts the worse it becomes.
And 40k has a LOT of moving parts.

As for assault, what some people seem to fail to recognize is that assault is a tool, not a strategy.
You weave in assault elements into your army to preform certain tasks, but trying to rely only on assault is mostly silly unless you're army is extremely tilted for it like khorne, and even khorne has guns.

**Lance845**

BoomWolf wrote:
Basically the game is supposed to be balanced, but no game is really truly balanced, and the more moving parts the worse it becomes.
And 40k has a LOT of moving parts.

Disagree. Incredibly complex games with lots of moving parts have been significantly better balanced and some perfectly balanced. The issue is that 40k has so little player choice and agency that the main contributing factor is just the numbers of it. It's math. If you can go first and kill x number of points then then chances are they can't catch up. You need more player agency and strategic and tactical coice so that the pure numbers of the units mean less then how they are used.

As for assault, what some people seem to fail to recognize is that assault is a tool, not a strategy.
You weave in assault elements into your army to preform certain tasks, but trying to rely only on assault is mostly silly unless you're army is extremely tilted for it like khorne, and even khorne has guns.

I do agree with this. Don't make your army into a 1 trick pony gimmick. This makes you predictable and easy to counter.

**BoomWolf**

Lance845 wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
Basically the game is supposed to be balanced, but no game is really truly balanced, and the more moving parts the worse it becomes.
And 40k has a LOT of moving parts.

Disagree. Incredibly complex games with lots of moving parts have been significantly better balanced and some perfectly balanced. The issue is that 40k has so little player choice and agency that the main contributing factor is just the numbers of it. It's math. If you can go first and kill x number of points then then chances are they can't catch up. You need more player agency and strategic and tactical coice so that the pure numbers of the units mean less then how they are used.

Can you give an example of such?
Because I can't even think of many games with nearly a many moving parts, let alone a one better balanced.

**auticus**

Gates of Antares. Infinity (which almost requires a college degree).

Thats for the sci fi sector offhand. They both of course have their own issues but are fairly complex and you can enjoy a better external balance in my opinion.

Then of course there is Battletech. Which makes 40k look like candyland in terms of complexity. And in Battletech again there is a wide variety of items to choose from where you aren't always just having to take X faction and Y build or go home.

On the fantasy front, compared to AOS which is equally trash in terms of balance you have Middle Earth (amazing since its a GW game), Lords of Erehwon, and Saga. More complex than AOS, and I don't feel I have to go out and collect models I don't really like just so I'm not getting table stomped.

**TechnoWitch**

1) 8th really isn't anymore balanced than past editions of 40k.

2) I never had much of an issue with overwatch as a mechanic, but you do have to avoid charging units with strong, auto hit weapons. If you charge from out of the weapons range then can't use it in overwatch, or if you charge the unit first with a character with the angel's wing relic, which make him immune from overwatch, then bring a squad in you can avoid it. I do agree that normal marines are too fragile and having an extra wound could help, but with primaris being a thing I doubt that will happen.

3) Charging out of deepstrike has always been an unreliable strategy this edition, unless you use the strategem for a 3D6 charge. Back before the deepstrike beta rule I always found the best strategy was to deepstrike some units, especially sanguinary guard with support characters, turn 1 in key positions behind cover and set them up for a turn 2 charge. Now it doesn't work quite as well because you can't come in until turn 2 and by the time you can get the turn 3 charge a lot of you army will be dead from your enemies shooting. Since Blood angels have mediocre shooting and strong close combat ability, you don't get to do much real damage until it's basically too late. Despite that I did always find company vets with jump packs, plasma guns and stormshields, supported by a captain, to be a really good unit that you can drop in and wreck stuff, but again with just one wound they aren't that durable even with the 3+ invuln.

Blood Angels were strong and in a good place when their codex first came out. Since then they've been nerfed really hard in the 2 big faqs, with the deepstrike beta rule and the change to how fly works in the charge phase, so now they are one of the bottom tier codex's. I've pretty much given up on them in 8th, they're only really decent if you use them as a small allied force now, and even then you are kind of gimping yourself.