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I play necrons, orks and admech. My friend recently started playing space marines and I've lost every game since then.

I have noticed how space marines generally pack a lot of punch and can take quite a few themselves, all for very little points. On top of that, they require no real thought to be put into the choices you make ingame.

I've even tried to build armies specifically anti space marine, but they have no real weaknesses.

Can anyone help me understand why they are so strong? Or maybe any tips on strategy against space marines?

EDIT: I believe I failed to clarify my issue. My general playstyle is to find a weakness in the other person's army and exploit it. So my issue with space marines is that I can't find any weaknesses. This may be due to my inexperience, which is why I created this discussion. (And thanks to everyone who already offered to help)

Space Marines are generally considered one of the weaker armies. Exceptions to that would be Deathwatch or Guilliman Ultramarines. They are usually seen as expensive, with poor vehicles and a lot of bad options, while they don't really have too many brilliant options. Can you give us a sample list your opponents are using, along with some of your lists? That might help people figure out where the problem lies.

Necrons and Ad Mech are also pretty weak armies so it may be your own lists are lacking in certain areas.

Welcome to Dakka.

Marines are generally middle of the road at best, but do have some builds that can reach towards competitive. If you give us some list examples, we can help narrow down the problem and give some solutions.

I'll echo those who say "Marines ain't that strong".

Now, they have some strong BUILDS, but in general, Marines aren't too tough or killy.

Can you provide lists that your friend uses?

Are you playing hyper-competitive tourney lists or a more relaxed environment?

What marine lists are you having problems dealing with? Any specific units that are too tough or hurt you more?

May I ask what your admech consists of? generally my admech has no issue with marines. do you have enough troops? what is your heavy support, are you running robots, or just onager?

Necrons should be able to at least slog it out with Astartes.

Orks should mob the floor with sheer mass of bodies/fire/attacks.

Slipspace wrote:
Space Marines are generally considered one of the weaker armies. Exceptions to that would be Deathwatch or Guilliman Ultramarines. They are usually seen as expensive, with poor vehicles and a lot of bad options, while they don't really have too many brilliant options. Can you give us a sample list your opponents are using, along with some of your lists? That might help people figure out where the problem lies.

Necrons and Ad Mech are also pretty weak armies so it may be your own lists are lacking in certain areas.

First off, thanks for the reply. I should mention we are both relatively new player (I have played for a little over a year, he for 2 years).

He plays imperial fists and he spams lascannons in every shape and form (predators, centurions, dreadnoughts, devestators, etc.). He also plays captains and other HQ's that let him reroll filed hit and wound rolls.

I play necron warriors, 6 destroyer (with lord as HQ), a doomsday ark, a triarch stalker and other elites and vehicles.

When I play admech it's usually Cawl, a Dunecrawler, Robots, Rangers, Infiltrators and destroyers.

Really appreciate you having a look!

lefyr wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Space Marines are generally considered one of the weaker armies. Exceptions to that would be Deathwatch or Guilliman Ultramarines. They are usually seen as expensive, with poor vehicles and a lot of bad options, while they don't really have too many brilliant options. Can you give us a sample list your opponents are using, along with some of your lists? That might help people figure out where the problem lies.

Necrons and Ad Mech are also pretty weak armies so it may be your own lists are lacking in certain areas.

First off, thanks for the reply. I should mention we are both relatively new player (I have played for a little over a year, he for 2 years).

He plays imperial fists and he spams lascannons in every shape and form (predators, centurions, dreadnoughts, devestators, etc.). He also plays captains and other HQ's that let him reroll filed hit and wound rolls.

I play necron warriors, 6 destroyer (with lord as HQ), a doomsday ark, a triarch stalker and other elites and vehicles.

When I play admech it's usually Cawl, a Dunecrawler, Robots, Rangers, Infiltrators and destroyers.

Really appreciate you having a look!

Seems he is pretty hard countering your vehicle heavy lists.

Have you tried to just swamp him in bodies?

well nothing about his list seems terriably off, he's playing a list that, is proably mostly a fluff list (Imperial fists are siege experts)

can you give us some ideas as to what proportions you're running in? if he's spamming a ton of las canons you might be having some trouble if you're running a list with not a ton of models. As Not online said, his list basicly hard counters a vehicle heavy list. drowning him in bodies might work. maybe a necron list that's heavy on warriors.

You might try some fast units that can assault some of his models. If you contact them they wont be able to shoot in the next turn (unless they can fly). If you have some Necron bikes, or Wraiths, they could be handy for that. Also, Centurions are notoriously expensive, but relatively fragile models. If you got the drop on them with some Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers you can do some heavy damage really fast.

You need to get more vanguard and add arquebi. More (cheap) bodies is always better. I would recommend ditching the kataphrons. on your robots do you have dakka or punchy loadout?

What kind of terrain do you normally play with? can you see the other side of the board for one edge to the other? Do you castle them and use the troops as chaff or use them to press the attack supported by the long range stuff?

His list seems pretty standard heavy hitter style. Massed LC fire will drop a knight so.....if you dont have the wounds to spread around....it kinda sucks.

BrianDavion wrote:
well nothing about his list seems terriably off, he's playing a list that, is proably mostly a fluff list (Imperial fists are siege experts)

can you give us some ideas as to what proportions you're running in? if he's spamming a ton of las canons you might be having some trouble if you're running a list with not a ton of models. As Not online said, his list basicly hard counters a vehicle heavy list. drowning him in bodies might work. maybe a necron list that's heavy on warriors.

He generally plays 2 predators, 1 dreadnought, 2 captains, 3 centurions and the rest is all infantry (2000 pts).

I play an overlord, 20 warriors, 6 destroyers, 1 destroyer lord, 1 stalker, 1 doomsday ark, 1 tomb sentinel, 1 monolith and 10 praetorians.

Thanks for the reply, by the way.

Seems a troll post honestly, created an account today and speaking of Marine OPness which is totally nonsense in today's game (especially when you already play an Ork army which is night and day compared to Marines)

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Seems a troll post honestly, created an account today and speaking of Marine OPness which is totally nonsense in today's game (especially when you already play an Ork army which is night and day compared to Marines)

or he's just a new player whose struggling, even Marines can win and from what the OP is saying I can definatly see him struggling with this list.

I play an AdMech player on a fairly regular basis, his armor wouldn't be so ridiculous without all the repair rules. As a general rule anything I don't kill is at full health next turn. Foot slogging Marines really struggle with Castellin robots when the Mortal Wound shields are on too. What that guy says is that AdMech is really strong when you can get all the rules working together, but it's tough to get your head around how they work since they rely on getting the Canticles and Strategems right.

Can't give you much advice on Necrons other than that Quantum Shields give Lascannon builds fits.

lefyr wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
well nothing about his list seems terriably off, he's playing a list that, is proably mostly a fluff list (Imperial fists are siege experts)

can you give us some ideas as to what proportions you're running in? if he's spamming a ton of las canons you might be having some trouble if you're running a list with not a ton of models. As Not online said, his list basicly hard counters a vehicle heavy list. drowning him in bodies might work. maybe a necron list that's heavy on warriors.

He generally plays 2 predators, 1 dreadnought, 2 captains, 3 centurions and the rest is all infantry (2000 pts).

I play an overlord, 20 warriors, 6 destroyers, 1 destroyer lord, 1 stalker, 1 doomsday ark, 1 tomb sentinel, 1 monolith and 10 praetorians.

Thanks for the reply, by the way.

Oof.

It looks like he outranges you considerably, and because a lot of your points is in vehicles, he can do a bunch of damage before you can really punch back. I'm rusty on my Necrons so I can't give very specific advice, but I'd look at trading away the Monolith and maybe the Tomb Stalker, and loading up on some more infantry that can hurt him at range. Maybe start using your Warriors as Immortals as a starter.

Againt the vehicles, Scarab Swarms might be something to look into. I think they're pretty fast, and if you can just touch the Predators you can shut them.down.

I feel like wraiths and immortals would ruin your friends day since he lacks volume of fire to deal with invulns and resurrection protocol. I don't know a ton about necrons though.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Seems a troll post honestly, created an account today and speaking of Marine OPness which is totally nonsense in today's game (especially when you already play an Ork army which is night and day compared to Marines)

Best policy is to treat it like a new player. Actual troll post are intended to stir up argument, and so far he's just been looking for advice.

 Insectum7 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Seems a troll post honestly, created an account today and speaking of Marine OPness which is totally nonsense in today's game (especially when you already play an Ork army which is night and day compared to Marines)

Best policy is to treat it like a new player. Actual troll post are intended to stir up argument, and so far he's just been looking for advice.

Sure but I would have reacted differently if he didn't say "Marines are OP they are super efficient!!!" because it's considerably false and something we could even argue about

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Seems a troll post honestly, created an account today and speaking of Marine OPness which is totally nonsense in today's game (especially when you already play an Ork army which is night and day compared to Marines)

Best policy is to treat it like a new player. Actual troll post are intended to stir up argument, and so far he's just been looking for advice.

Sure but I would have reacted differently if he didn't say "Marines are OP they are super efficient!!!" because it's considerably false and something we could even argue about

They can look pretty efficient for a new player who's using an uncompetitive list and getting blown away game after game by a list that hard-counters it.

Players with experience often take that experience for granted.

Racerguy180 wrote:
You need to get more vanguard and add arquebi. More (cheap) bodies is always better. I would recommend ditching the kataphrons. on your robots do you have dakka or punchy loadout?

What kind of terrain do you normally play with? can you see the other side of the board for one edge to the other? Do you castle them and use the troops as chaff or use them to press the attack supported by the long range stuff?

His list seems pretty standard heavy hitter style. Massed LC fire will drop a knight so.....if you dont have the wounds to spread around....it kinda sucks.

Thanks for the reply!

I have the fists on the Robots and the blasters on the back.

We play on a moonbase terrain, where you can see the other side.

I usually use the robots to engage in close combat and the Rangers as stationary support.

Thanks for the tips and you definitly helped me out!

AdMech are a strong army. It just sounds like his particular list is effective against yours.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Seems a troll post honestly, created an account today and speaking of Marine OPness which is totally nonsense in today's game (especially when you already play an Ork army which is night and day compared to Marines)

Best policy is to treat it like a new player. Actual troll post are intended to stir up argument, and so far he's just been looking for advice.

Sure but I would have reacted differently if he didn't say "Marines are OP they are super efficient!!!" because it's considerably false and something we could even argue about

I'm sorry you feel this way. I get your point and maybe I should have formulated it a bit differently.

I still believe that space marines are a strong army, though what I'm reading in the replies to my question is starting to give me a lot of perspective.

All in all, I really appreciate the positive feedback I'm getting from the majority of the replies and I feel that I am learning a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

lefyr wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
well nothing about his list seems terriably off, he's playing a list that, is proably mostly a fluff list (Imperial fists are siege experts)

can you give us some ideas as to what proportions you're running in? if he's spamming a ton of las canons you might be having some trouble if you're running a list with not a ton of models. As Not online said, his list basicly hard counters a vehicle heavy list. drowning him in bodies might work. maybe a necron list that's heavy on warriors.

He generally plays 2 predators, 1 dreadnought, 2 captains, 3 centurions and the rest is all infantry (2000 pts).

I play an overlord, 20 warriors, 6 destroyers, 1 destroyer lord, 1 stalker, 1 doomsday ark, 1 tomb sentinel, 1 monolith and 10 praetorians.

Thanks for the reply, by the way.

Oof.

It looks like he outranges you considerably, and because a lot of your points is in vehicles, he can do a bunch of damage before you can really punch back. I'm rusty on my Necrons so I can't give very specific advice, but I'd look at trading away the Monolith and maybe the Tomb Stalker, and loading up on some more infantry that can hurt him at range. Maybe start using your Warriors as Immortals as a starter.

Againt the vehicles, Scarab Swarms might be something to look into. I think they're pretty fast, and if you can just touch the Predators you can shut them.down.

Thanks for the tips!

I will definitly look more into some cheap fast attack for the vehicles and the use of infantry would definitly come in handy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:
I feel like wraiths and immortals would ruin your friends day since he lacks volume of fire to deal with invulns and resurrection protocol. I don't know a ton about necrons though.

That's true. Though usually he avoids split firing when it comes to my infantry.

The wraiths would definitly work though.

Thanks for the help!

Edit: That was a really weird double-post.

As a bit of general advice here. Marines one real weakness has been and continues to be they are very well rounded but their weakness is in that they are so middle of the road.

They don't excel at any one area, so picking them apart with heavy pressure with dedicated and scary CC units or hard hitting shooting can derail them.

Primaris as well sort of double down on shooting and aren't very good at all in CC aside from just punching them. Thats one issue.

For Necrons wraiths are your friends, and for Ad Mech, Robots all gunned up and proper use of all your strats is the way to go.Just some minor bits of advice that should help in the long term.

I play Fists, and they are a pretty good chapter these days, but it sounds like your friend isn't really playing to their strengths, with specialist detachment rules, so you can be thankful for that!

His list is "2 predators, 1 dreadnought, 2 captains, 3 centurions and the rest is all infantry (2000 pts)." Firstly, it's not optimised at all. You can definitely beat this list quite handily.

Presumably the centurions are rocking lascannons, if you're feeling like your drowning in lascannon fire. They're the unit you should concentrate fire on. Bring them down and you'll cripple his fire base, and make him more static. Set up as far as possible with your juicy targets out of LoS, or in cover, vs his predators. When the centurions drop, he'll be forced to reposition the preds. Marine infantry is pretty good these days, but they do have weakness to certain weapons. Tesla will rip through them unless in they're in cover. And they often don't have enough bodies to bubble wrap their key units, meaning a good assault from you can take key units (like this preds) out of the game indefinitely. Preds are glass cannons, but put out good damage. Captains and LTs are force multipliers, and if you have access to snipers, bringing them down makes everything easier for you - if you have a choice, and you're shooting at an HQ with a high -AP gun, target the LT as he has no invuln save.

Overall I'd recommend Admech for the job. Dakka robots, arbequss snipers, and insane robot chickens are brilliant for your needs, and going forward you have two transports (one just releasing and the FW drill), which even unlocks your close combat priests. Cawl is a beast. One Onager can be nice to have too. However, this is partly just m ignorance speaking; I don't know necrons well, and they have of late been having a resurgence in competitive 40k, so they can definitely do the business, especially with quantum shielding vs lascannons. If you go deeper into necronsz, get a second and third doomsday ark, wraiths and immortals. Three solid units that are all great against the boys in yellow.

lefyr wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
You need to get more vanguard and add arquebi. More (cheap) bodies is always better. I would recommend ditching the kataphrons. on your robots do you have dakka or punchy loadout?

What kind of terrain do you normally play with? can you see the other side of the board for one edge to the other? Do you castle them and use the troops as chaff or use them to press the attack supported by the long range stuff?

His list seems pretty standard heavy hitter style. Massed LC fire will drop a knight so.....if you dont have the wounds to spread around....it kinda sucks.

Thanks for the reply!

I have the fists on the Robots and the blasters on the back.

We play on a moonbase terrain, where you can see the other side.

I usually use the robots to engage in close combat and the Rangers as stationary support.

Thanks for the tips and you definitly helped me out!

Here's your issue, right here. Throw some more terrain down and give your robots guns.

Or throw more terrain down and Deepstrike your punchy robots in his face (Ad Mech can do that, right?)

Either way, playing on planet bowling ball against a list that out ranges your heavy armour is asking for trouble. 40k plays so much better and is more balanced than many people give it credit for when there is a lot of line of sight blocking terrain.

If you have to, just cut use cardboard boxes sprayed grey. Or large rocks. Aquarium ruins. Anything really that stops one player getting range all the way across the board through the middle.

I can assure you that there are gunlines more competent than marines. You're having a gunline problem, welcome to 8th. Terrain can help, until you fight the indirect fire gunlines.

As a addendum to my earlier post I went looking for an article from waaaaay back in the 90s where the GW team, Jervis in particular, was talking about the amount of terrain they envisaged on the board. They basically said to divide the board into thirds. Before set up, fill one third choc-a-bloc with terrain. Spread this terrain around. That's the level of terrain we're talking about: roughly a third of the board.

lefyr wrote:

I have the fists on the Robots and the blasters on the back.

Put the guns on their hands instead of those fists. Stand well back & light him up. Because everything he has will go down under volume fire. You make marines & the like die by forcing them to roll a bunch of saves.

Magnetize your blasters & fists. That way you can swap things out game to game.

lefyr wrote:

We play on a moonbase terrain, where you can see the other side.

Make some terrain. Do it now. You need to block some of his Lines of Sight. Since anything can be re-purposed into terrain, it's far easier & far cheaper than you might think.

lefyr wrote:

I usually use the robots to engage in close combat and the Rangers as stationary support.

Stand back, get the mortal wound shield up, & just shoot the *** out of him. If he wants to play Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots, let him march across the field.

Banville wrote:
As a addendum to my earlier post I went looking for an article from waaaaay back in the 90s where the GW team, Jervis in particular, was talking about the amount of terrain they envisaged on the board. They basically said to divide the board into thirds. Before set up, fill one third choc-a-bloc with terrain. Spread this terrain around. That's the level of terrain we're talking about: roughly a third of the board.

Well I guess Jervis had to be good for something. this is a good metric to go by.