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https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Current_Documents_Required_To_Play_Warhammer_40%2C000_8th_Edition

With the addition of the FW Knight updates and some other FW datasheets I had missed, we're now at One Hundred and Two documents needed to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition.

Good thing GW learned their lesson from 7th and reduced the rules bloat, amirite?

Edit: It seems I was given faulty information regarding Sister Superior Amalia Novena. I have edited the OP and article to reflect that correction.

Oh yawn......because I'd much prefer to have fewer documents with broken things.

 bullyboy wrote:
Oh yawn......because I'd much prefer to have fewer documents with broken things.

Are you implying that we don't have more documents with broken things?

yes, because i need all of these 103 documents in every single game i play, how would i even be able to start a game without knowing the rules for sister Amalia when playing Drukhari vs Admech?

Whats the point of this post BCB?

his point is that complaining we have a FAQ for each codex is the height of stupidity.

As is claiming 103 documents are NEEDED to play warhammer 40k 8th edition. If I sit down with a buddy and play a space marines vs deathguard game, all I NEED is the codex for each faction, the core rulebook and the FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VladimirHerzog wrote:


Whats the point of this post BCB?

when I was 3 I went through a phase of showing how clever I was by showing how high I could count .Could be he's a late bloomer?

Or it's crazy, there are these applications for PHONES now! And get this, you can PRINT things from a phone! Holy cow!

And then get this, if you still want to look up the rule, you can! And, they are actually answering questions and putting that online, in one location, for free!

But hey, we can go back to the dark ages of universal rules and exceptions to those rules everywhere. We can also go back to zero updates for years for some armies and rules meta that breaks the game permanently for months on end.

Oh no. . . GW is updating the game more often than before.

Ah, another classic BCB thread. I'm surprised he didn't stay in YMDC, I guess everyone there is wise to his MO at this point, so he's hoping to get more attention here. I guess its working, since I'm posting. Well done good sir!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
we're now at One Hundred and Three documents needed to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition.

Maybe try phrasing this less hyperbolically?

You have a fair point that the number of documents is an issue, but your phrasing means people just mock it.

You do NOT need 103 documents to play a game of 40k, not unless you are using every faction including Forgeworld options and so on from most of them. Which never happens.

You also only actually need all the documents for your armies if you're in a serious tournament setting - in casual games your codex and Battlescribe will be fine, and if something comes up you and you're opponent aren't sure about you just check the relevant FAQ on the fly. After a few games with new FAQs this will likely become a pretty infrequent occurrence.

Let's break it down.

"With the addition of the FW Knight updates, Sister Superior Amalia Novena and some other FW datasheets I had missed, we're now at One Hundred and Three documents needed to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition."

He is saying you "need" 103 documents to play the game, so this means you cannot play the game without all the documents.

We have evidence to discount this however. I have played 40k 8th edition several times, and neither I nor my opponent had all of the available documents.

Therefore, RAW BaconCatBug's statement is wrong.

Maybe we should read it as he intended which is that there are maybe too many total documents available, but as far as I know reading something for its intent is not something that should ever be done.

Is this some kind of paradox?

Uh, the Sister Superior doesn't have a unique datasheet. The rules for a Battle Sister Squad are printed in her assembly manual. The rules for Vertus Praetors and Dawneagle Captains are also printed in their assembly manuals, so if we're counting the assembly manuals, then there are probably more than 103 documents published by GW, but since they're not even errata, I'm not going to be bringing the assembly manuals in my books-box.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Uh, the Sister Superior doesn't have a unique datasheet. The rules for a Battle Sister Squad are printed in her assembly manual.

If that is the case I will happily retract that statement. I am working on information I was provided via PM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
we're now at One Hundred and Three documents needed to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition.

Maybe try phrasing this less hyperbolically?

You have a fair point that the number of documents is an issue, but your phrasing means people just mock it.

You do NOT need 103 documents to play a game of 40k, not unless you are using every faction including Forgeworld options and so on from most of them. Which never happens.

You also only actually need all the documents for your armies if you're in a serious tournament setting - in casual games your codex and Battlescribe will be fine, and if something comes up you and you're opponent aren't sure about you just check the relevant FAQ on the fly. After a few games with new FAQs this will likely become a pretty infrequent occurrence.

It's not my fault if people find the facts hyperbolic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Let's break it down.

"With the addition of the FW Knight updates, Sister Superior Amalia Novena and some other FW datasheets I had missed, we're now at One Hundred and Three documents needed to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition."

He is saying you "need" 103 documents to play the game, so this means you cannot play the game without all the documents.

We have evidence to discount this however. I have played 40k 8th edition several times, and neither I nor my opponent had all of the available documents.

Therefore, RAW BaconCatBug's statement is wrong.

Maybe we should read it as he intended which is that there are maybe too many total documents available, but as far as I know reading something for its intent is not something that should ever be done.

Is this some kind of paradox?

Not using documents is not the same as not needing them.

BCB is using hyperbole to be sure but the rules bloat is a real thing.

To play a competitive army I need so many documents it's crazy. GW has pushed soup as it's point of balance so I need:
1. Rule book
2. CA 2018
3. Rule book FAQ
4. Designers commentary
5. Vigilus
6. Codex Astra Militarum
7. FAQ
8. Codex Blood Angels
9. FAQ
10. Index Imperium 1
11. Codex death watch
12. FAQ
13. Imperial armor
14. Assassin white dwarf

At least 1000 pages of "rules" that I need to schlep around. There should be an option to get a cheaper digital copy with my hard copies or an option for "battle books" or whatever just containing the rules without all the fluff/pics. Having to pay full price TWICE for each of the rule books I need is crazy. I can't rely on print-outs or "3rd party" sources and most tournaments want you to have the physical copy of the rules in case your opponent wants to double check (which they should because even the "pros" get rules wrong.)

I couldn't imagine being a new player and trying to get into the game. I would barely know where to start looking for the rules and digesting so much contradictory info all at once would be a big turn off.

With more campaign books on the way, more FAQs and more than likely more corrections documents I would kill for GW to re-print the vital parts of the rules in soft cover so I could just carry those and/or sell a digital subscription so I could just have access to what I need online. Instead GW will attempt to keep pushing out buggy hard-cover codexes, weird digital codexes and I'll keep buying them like the idiot I am.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Uh, the Sister Superior doesn't have a unique datasheet. The rules for a Battle Sister Squad are printed in her assembly manual.

If that is the case I will happily retract that statement. I am working on information I was provided via PM.

Most assembly manuals for new products have the datasheet in the box. Sometimes, this datasheet may be obsolete; I've bought models that still have their 7e datasheet in the box. I don't think it's considered a valid set of rules, just a reprinting of the codex datasheet as a reference for what you just bought if you don't already have the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:


I couldn't imagine being a new player and trying to get into the game. I would barely know where to start looking for the rules and digesting so much contradictory info all at once would be a big turn off.

With more campaign books on the way, more FAQs and more than likely more corrections documents I would kill for GW to re-print the vital parts of the rules in soft cover so I could just carry those and/or sell a digital subscription so I could just have access to what I need online. Instead GW will attempt to keep pushing out buggy hard-cover codexes, weird digital codexes and I'll keep buying them like the idiot I am.

I would reccommend just starting with your codex. Someone else will have the BRB, and the base rules are free online.

I'm not a huge fan of the hardcover codecies with all the fluff either, I think the indecies were actually much better, but the Codecies are probably more attractive to new players. That said, the idea of having to buy another $45 book regularly sort of turns me off having a 5th army, because I feel like I've already passed the point where buying books is a serious drain on what I would be spending on miniatures.

If only all of these records were available in some sort of electronic form and could all be held in the palm of the hand or the on a convenient lightweight tablet... oh wait what is this they are all on my phone and tablet my mistake.

BrianDavion wrote:
when I was 3 I went through a phase of showing how clever I was by showing how high I could count .Could be he's a late bloomer?

Insulting him isn't helping anything. It's also a violation of Rule #1. Either ignore him, or argue against what he's saying.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's not my fault if people find the facts hyperbolic.

Not using documents is not the same as not needing them.

It is hyperbolic if they aren't facts.

If you aren't using them then they aren't needed. That's really very basic logic.

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's not my fault if people find the facts hyperbolic.

Not using documents is not the same as not needing them.

It is hyperbolic if they aren't facts.

If you aren't using them then they aren't needed. That's really very basic logic.

If I go to a building site and don't have a hammer dropped on my head, I didn't use my helmet. The helmet was still needed.

I'm not going to lie, the new FW Knights are making my cry. All it takes is one of those 18" 2d6 S8 D4 flamers each hit, and there goes my entire squad of Custodes Terminators. Along with everything else.

What is the motivation behind FW creating these new meta breaking models? Seriously? It's not enough to fight Castellans, now I have to put up with something that basically gets two volcano lances and a heavy mortar battery, with 30 wounds?

I'm sorry, but this is getting obscene. It's beyond the pale that entire armies are made irrelevant by these new Knights.

Not really a correct comparison. You don't need a helmet to perform work at a building site. It is required by regulation, but you can, in fact, move throughout and within the site without it. A correct comparison would be to say "you need oxygen in order to live." The latter directly requires the former to function. If you wanted your opinion to match reality, you would need to say "40k has 103 documents that are used to play the game." You have excluded the assumption of necessity for every single document for every single game with this simple rephrasing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's not my fault if people find the facts hyperbolic.

Not using documents is not the same as not needing them.

It is hyperbolic if they aren't facts.

If you aren't using them then they aren't needed. That's really very basic logic.

If I go to a building site and don't have a hammer dropped on my head, I didn't use my helmet. The helmet was still needed.

If i go to LVO and i am playing Admech, do i need the t'au codex + FAQ?

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's not my fault if people find the facts hyperbolic.

Not using documents is not the same as not needing them.

It is hyperbolic if they aren't facts.

If you aren't using them then they aren't needed. That's really very basic logic.

If I go to a building site and don't have a hammer dropped on my head, I didn't use my helmet. The helmet was still needed.

If i go to LVO and i am playing Admech, do i need the t'au codex + FAQ?

Some would argue yes as you need to know what a Tau opponent can do, however the LVO is a MAJOR tournment. you can't use that as your basis for comparison. A better question would be "I just bought dark Imperium and split it's contents with my buddy whom I play with. Do I need the Tau codex+FAQ?"

VladimirHerzog wrote:
If i go to LVO and i am playing Admech, do i need the t'au codex + FAQ?

Yes, for when you play against T'au.

bananathug wrote:
BCB is using hyperbole to be sure but the rules bloat is a real thing.

To play a competitive army I need so many documents it's crazy. GW has pushed soup as it's point of balance so I need:
1. Rule book
2. CA 2018
3. Rule book FAQ
4. Designers commentary
5. Vigilus
6. Codex Astra Militarum
7. FAQ
8. Codex Blood Angels
9. FAQ
10. Index Imperium 1
11. Codex death watch
12. FAQ
13. Imperial armor
14. Assassin white dwarf

At least 1000 pages of "rules" that I need to schlep around. There should be an option to get a cheaper digital copy with my hard copies or an option for "battle books" or whatever just containing the rules without all the fluff/pics. Having to pay full price TWICE for each of the rule books I need is crazy. I can't rely on print-outs or "3rd party" sources and most tournaments want you to have the physical copy of the rules in case your opponent wants to double check (which they should because even the "pros" get rules wrong.)

I couldn't imagine being a new player and trying to get into the game. I would barely know where to start looking for the rules and digesting so much contradictory info all at once would be a big turn off.

With more campaign books on the way, more FAQs and more than likely more corrections documents I would kill for GW to re-print the vital parts of the rules in soft cover so I could just carry those and/or sell a digital subscription so I could just have access to what I need online. Instead GW will attempt to keep pushing out buggy hard-cover codexes, weird digital codexes and I'll keep buying them like the idiot I am.

The worst part is it feels like a douche thing to say but you forgot the vigilous FAQ and the 2019 FAQ as it changes the assasins strategum.

It's a PITA to try and ensure that you have all the rules and are up-to-date. But atleast in a competitive setting everyone else is trying to do the same so the chances of you both having missed the same thing as small..

Trying to play with casual players who give no care to FAQ's is way worse as you end up playing 2 vastly different versions of rules and they get really confused or annoyed when they can't follow why the rules change game to game.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
If i go to LVO and i am playing Admech, do i need the t'au codex + FAQ?

Yes, for when you play against T'au.

and what If I'm a casual player who plays with a small circle of friends in my garage and none of us play Tau?
ohh and I trust my friends not to dick me on the rules!

The most I need is the core rules, a single codex, and the FAQ's on my phone. It really isn't that big of a deal honestly. Not really sure what the drama is about.

Bob shows up at the FLGS.

Bob has the basic PDF rules and Codex Astartes.

I play Bob using whatever books I have.

As he could play the game without the books, the books were not needed.

Perhaps he could play the game better if he had CA2019. So 3 books would make his day better.

Perhaps he'd play it even better with the most recent FAQs.

And perhaps he'd be better off if he had whatever Codex I'm using that day.

But anything beyond that isn't going to help him.

There might be 102 books that could possibly impact a game. And so, for the most competitive players, that's 102 items they might need to consult. But the vast majority of players never need to look at the Corsairs rules, or R&H, or anything but what they play.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm not going to lie, the new FW Knights are making my cry. All it takes is one of those 18" 2d6 S8 D4 flamers each hit, and there goes my entire squad of Custodes Terminators. Along with everything else.

What is the motivation behind FW creating these new meta breaking models? Seriously? It's not enough to fight Castellans, now I have to put up with something that basically gets two volcano lances and a heavy mortar battery, with 30 wounds?

I'm sorry, but this is getting obscene. It's beyond the pale that entire armies are made irrelevant by these new Knights.

Well first off FW didn't write these rules welcome to GW rules for more models. More rules more chances for them to achieve maximum points to playability inconsistencies.

Also your the only one thinking they got better, everyone else thinks they have been nerfed into never to be seen in competitive.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's not my fault if people find the facts hyperbolic.

Not using documents is not the same as not needing them.

It is hyperbolic if they aren't facts.

If you aren't using them then they aren't needed. That's really very basic logic.

If I go to a building site and don't have a hammer dropped on my head, I didn't use my helmet. The helmet was still needed.

False equivalence. I can happily and successfully play a game with only a fraction of the documents.

Maybe you can't, maybe you personally need 103 documents. The rest of us do not.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
The most I need is the core rules, a single codex, and the FAQ's on my phone. It really isn't that big of a deal honestly. Not really sure what the drama is about.

The point is that Gw tries to nickle and dime you through books, sadly.

And whilest bcb is Prone to hyperbole, nobody can argue against the point that it gets a bit, how to put it, excessive?

Edit: it also has a negativ effect on future rule changes, due to a massive ammount of books in varying shape or form existing.