JohnnyHell wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I'm thinking that as Endless Spells did so well for AoS and that its production GW can shift to China we'll see 40K copy the mechanic over. Much like faction terrain has become a thing for 40K and AoS. I can well see different factions getting different spells whilst forces like Tau would get something like a "summon drones" ability etc... What will be interesting is if things like the demon faction Endless Spells carry over to 40K like the models do. Imagine having flaming heads spewing hook whips charging across in 40K!

I like Endless Spells in AoS, but in 40k something about them doesn't sit right for me outside of maybe games set in the Cicatrix Maledictum.

Certain battlefield effects like a vortex for a tear into the warp or a poison gas cloud might be cool, but those aren't rally speels.

I guess I keep thinking about a direct port of them from AoS to 40k, but GW might implement them in a different way that I will find really cool. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

If it was framed as a tyranid spore cloud or swarm of buzzer squigs or necron nanoscarab hive does that make you feel any better? Because its all just the same crap to sell models with different names.

“Oh you think your army is done? Here’s a set of rules and models you NEED to buy to keep up with the meta...”

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I think it's kinda insulting for other Xeno factions. I'm happy that Marines get an updated codex after 2 years (this sets a precedent for other codices updates I think) but the mere release of even new Marine models after only FIVE MONTHS from the last marine release whilst neglecting all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex is braindead at best.

What were the Genestealer Cults, the various Ork Buggies and the plastic Spiritseer then?

The minimarines are done for, so they need to rapidly get the line to the state where it can reasonably function as Primaris only.

You call a "Plastic Spiritseer" (released a year ago and remember it's a SINGLE MODEL) release something worthwhile for Xenos? Shall I remember you how many Space Marines releases happened in the last 2 years? I honestly lost the count and this feels pathetic for both Marine and Non-Marine players.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I think I might know the reason for stubbers up the wazoo.

Weight saving. Doesn't a heavy stubber weigh a lot less than a heavy bolter, so giving it upgraded ammo means it's got the same penetration for a little raw damage, but carry much more ammo.

With the infiltrators needing to work behind enemy lines, more ammo surely isn't a bad thing? Also 12" extra range is nice too I suppose...

 kendoka wrote:
IMHO: a "pistolised heavy bolter" handled by a powerfist is Ork-level of stupidity/sillyness.

A powerfist probably only has two modes: open and close (pick up/crush) and nowhere near the dexterity needed to control a pistol grip, not mentioning the position of the arm making it almost impossible for the pilot to aim using LOS.

Why not have the bolter either underslung or permanently mounted (with targetting systems) on the rig?
This is not "rule of cool" - but LEGO-design.

That said, the new "sound-dampened" (stupid fluff trying to compensate for bad design) dread will however be a cood base for conversions (power loaders, etc.) - and the "pistolised heavy bolter" will look good on the back of an Ogryn.

I feel the Primaris-era is GW trying to wash away some of the grim darkness - making marines more kid friendly (the marines are vat grown instead of kidnapped and brainwashed/growth hormone treated youngsters, etc. - and the dreads no longer crippled veterans).
A bit like the Sigmarines in AOS who never die™ and just respawn...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I think it's kinda insulting for other Xeno factions. I'm happy that Marines get an updated codex after 2 years (this sets a precedent for other codices updates I think) but the mere release of even new Marine models after only FIVE MONTHS from the last marine release whilst neglecting all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex is braindead at best.

What were the Genestealer Cults, the various Ork Buggies and the plastic Spiritseer then?

Presumably they, along with the Necron dude, would fall outside of the description of "all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex".

If we take that time period as 8th edition, I think that would mean Dark Eldar, Tau, Harlequins and Tyranids, off the top of my head, with two factions who have had exactly one character model (Necrons and Craftworlds).

Orks were, what, six or seven kits? GSC certainly got a decent release.

I repeat- IOW "Here you go, be happy with the scraps you've got. Be grateful we gave you anything."

What is it with people taking everything literally? Xenos, by comparison to SMs have gotten feth all this edition. Not literally, as they did get something but it is crumbs compared to the massive proverbial cake SMs got and are still getting.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I think it's kinda insulting for other Xeno factions. I'm happy that Marines get an updated codex after 2 years (this sets a precedent for other codices updates I think) but the mere release of even new Marine models after only FIVE MONTHS from the last marine release whilst neglecting all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex is braindead at best.

What were the Genestealer Cults, the various Ork Buggies and the plastic Spiritseer then?

Presumably they, along with the Necron dude, would fall outside of the description of "all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex".

If we take that time period as 8th edition, I think that would mean Dark Eldar, Tau, Harlequins and Tyranids, off the top of my head, with two factions who have had exactly one character model (Necrons and Craftworlds).

Orks were, what, six or seven kits? GSC certainly got a decent release.

I repeat- IOW "Here you go, be happy with the scraps you've got. Be grateful we gave you anything."

What is it with people taking everything literally? Xenos, by comparison to SMs have gotten feth all this edition. Not literally, as they did get something but it is crumbs compared to the massive proverbial cake SMs got and are still getting.

Again, 2 waves of primaris releases. 1 wave of chaos marines if you want to be generous and include them, despite it being a refresh of 15+ year old core kits.

Otherwise we have:
Death guard (too diverse to be 'just marines')
Stealer cults
Custodes
Knights
Chaos knights
Orks
Daemons x2

Marines have a large volume of historic kits and needed a large sleuth to replace them, not that others don't. But you're just wrong I'm afraid.

Nope. Let's look what was in those releases shall we? Rather than by single blob of release as you'll see those SM kits outnumber the rest of the other Xenos kits combined. GSC I can give you, as that was a big release but everything else has either been nothing, one or two models or barely a blip of thing no player of the army asked for (Orks). Imperium as a whole is getting everything whilst everything else is languishing behind. Where are my auxiliaries for Tau? They have literally loads of client races working for them but we only have two on the tabletop. Where are new Aspect Warriors? Even new temples FFS. If GW can pull SM stuff out of their collective backsides then they should have no problem with other races.

 Dysartes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I think it's kinda insulting for other Xeno factions. I'm happy that Marines get an updated codex after 2 years (this sets a precedent for other codices updates I think) but the mere release of even new Marine models after only FIVE MONTHS from the last marine release whilst neglecting all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex is braindead at best.

What were the Genestealer Cults, the various Ork Buggies and the plastic Spiritseer then?

Presumably they, along with the Necron dude, would fall outside of the description of "all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex".

If we take that time period as 8th edition, I think that would mean Dark Eldar, Tau, Harlequins and Tyranids, off the top of my head, with two factions who have had exactly one character model (Necrons and Craftworlds).

Orks were, what, six or seven kits? GSC certainly got a decent release.

I repeat- IOW "Here you go, be happy with the scraps you've got. Be grateful we gave you anything."

What is it with people taking everything literally? Xenos, by comparison to SMs have gotten feth all this edition. Not literally, as they did get something but it is crumbs compared to the massive proverbial cake SMs got and are still getting.

Again, 2 waves of primaris releases. 1 wave of chaos marines if you want to be generous and include them, despite it being a refresh of 15+ year old core kits.

Otherwise we have:
Death guard (too diverse to be 'just marines')
Stealer cults
Custodes
Knights
Chaos knights
Orks
Daemons x2

Marines have a large volume of historic kits and needed a large sleuth to replace them, not that others don't. But you're just wrong I'm afraid.

Nope. Let's look what was in those releases shall we? Rather than by single blob of release as you'll see those SM kits outnumber the rest of the other Xenos kits combined. GSC I can give you, as that was a big release but everything else has either been nothing, one or two models or barely a blip of thing no player of the army asked for (Orks). Imperium as a whole is getting everything whilst everything else is languishing behind. Where are my auxiliaries for Tau? They have literally loads of client races working for them but we only have two on the tabletop. Where are new Aspect Warriors? Even new temples FFS. If GW can pull SM stuff out of their collective backsides then they should have no problem with other races.

What auxiliaries would you add to tau that are unique and the army needs? Aspect warriors I agree need a rehash. But you're moving the goal post from marines to imperium to fit your argument.

Marines until recently got (in their main wave):
Captain
Librarian
Chaplain
Apothecary
Redemptor
Repulsor
Inceptors
Intercessors
Hellblasters
Repulsor
Aggressors

Which admittedly is a fairly decent amount for what I'd essentially a brand new army. But it's still comparable to the stealer cults release, death guard release, chaos marine release and orks wasn't far behind (whether people asked for what they made is irrelevant).

Don't forget various Primaris Lieutenants - 2 of which are on general release, 2 more via specific boxes, and that's before we get to the LE ones.

And I notice we're getting another one in this wave, if you check the file name on the Reiver.

You're also discounting E2B versions of those kits, and the various models in Shadowspear. Oh, and in terms of boxes, the BA/DA/SW versions of kits...

Client races for the Tau? Well, new sculpts and options - possibly an entire Merc 'dex - for the Kroot would be a starting point. Additional Vespid options, perhaps? Demiurg are a possibility, though maybe less so now we're seeing Squats back in Necro. I don't think the Niccassar work on a planet. Gue'vasa have been an option Tau players have been after for years. And as we're talking client races for Tau, this is an option to bring in a squad or two of anything they feel like, and it can be justified as a newly weaponised race...

As an aside, if people are going to compare all the releases for Xenos to just the Primaris releases - which we've seen a number of times in this thread - then the comparison is off. You either compare individual factions to Primaris - in which case only the GSC measure up at all, for Xenos factions - or you compare Xenos releases to Chaos releases to Imperial releases.

And if you do that, one leg of the tripod is substantially shorter than the other two.

 1hadhq wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:
27 Chapter Tactics. That is a lot.

So 8 Chapter tactics and 19 successor Tactics.... but weren't there 9 Legions split up once?

 Brother Castor wrote:
I don't get how this core codex + chapter supplements helps with the bloat. What happens when the first new Primaris unit is released? They'll all be out of date again.

 Brother Castor wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I don't get how this core codex + chapter supplements helps with the bloat. What happens when the first new Primaris unit is released? They'll all be out of date again.

It means the space marine codex gets updated and the supplements don't need reprinting or changing.

Okay, but a 3rd or 4th SM codex within an edition, really?

Brother Castor wrote:So will this replace all existing SM codexes or will it be like CSM codex 2.0?

Anyone?

 argonak wrote:
How long do we think this new book will be good for?

Two years out of the last one seems a bit light to me. I was honestly just expecting a addendum Primaris codex from this release, not a whole new issue plus splat books. Is it going to last into 9th?

BaconCatBug wrote:Saying "You can just use Death Company models as an Assault Squad" entirely misses the point that the Death Company are not Assault Squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.

An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.

Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.

You mean that thing people have been doing since forever? What people do with their army is none of your concern.

Mandragola wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.

An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.

Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.

I’m baffled by this complaint. If I play a guy at a tournament and he’s got a wysiwyg blood angels army, what the hell do I care if he played them as dark angels three months ago? What difference does it make to me? So long as his sanguinary guard aren’t being represented by deathwing terminators or something, all is good.

This is just a complete non-issue, which is why no tournament has ever ruled out homebrew marines, or homebrew anything else.

Sterling191 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


It's not tourney related, which is why you're baffled by it. I'm not talking about a big organised event, just when a guy in your local groups has the same army representing 4-5 sets of rules just to optimise 1 unit. It's hard to track against game to game and can be seen as overly gaming the system, stripping some of the story out of the games.

On what planet are you letting someone take four or five chapter tactics?

Sterling191 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Jeez, not all at once, say over the course of 10 games.

So a player playing difference forces, using different playstyles, over different games, utilizing different chapter tactics to do so is now problematic?

This is literally the situation that the ruleset is designed to encourage, and you're gaking on it. Well done.

Sterling191 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Same models both games. But you encourage that?

Absolutely. Especially since you're trying to pass off different equipment as different chapter tactics, then gak on the latter but making a royal mess of the whole thing.

The fewer barriers to entry you can put between players and a game, the better. And demanding no holds barred "YOU MUST PAINT AND MODEL YOUR MINIS TO EXACTING 41st MILLENIUM REALISM STANDARDS" is a massive barrier to entry.

Sterling191 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.

Here's the fatal flaw in your logic:

A cohesive narrative isnt necessary for a game to happen. Or an army to happen.

If you want one, work it out with your match partner. Its not incumbent upon the ruleset to enforce.

 Carnikang wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.

Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?

Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.

List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.

WhiteDog wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.

Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?

Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.

List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.

For me personally not an issue, you're able to explain that you're doing it for a reason that's not just "it's the best one" with a decent fluff reason. You're engaging a narrative rather than simply power gaming which was the crux of my issue.

Either way I think it's sufficiently covered in here and everyone agrees it's a social contract and speaking to your opponent is key. Different people want different stuff!

Why are you boring us with this discussion ? If you want to play fluff, then find people that play fluff and makes guidelines with them beforehand to prevent "power gaming" or whatever you dislike. As for others, they can do whatever they want and if they desire to paint a rainbow space marine force (even if that's usually ugly as hell) and change their chapter tactic from one game to another then so be it.

 Galef wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I doubt they'd do this, but they could drop Tacs, Devs, and ASM from the book (Among others).

Oh, you meant those guys. They will definitely still be there too.

And hopefully with better options/lower points cost
Tacticals, for example, might be able to take 2 special/heavy weapons per unit regardless of size, and maybe a third at 10-man.
And maybe Devs get T5 to match Havocs

-

 Galef wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Jesus, way to kick chaos in the nuts, 3 specials/heavies at 10 would be a bit much and theres not reay any justification for t5 devastators.

For clarity, I want the same thing for Chaos Marines too, it's just that they aren't getting an updated Codex right now. And if Havoc got T5 because the bulk of the weapon, Dev should too.

-

 Elbows wrote:
Eh, other rules with re-rolling 1's clearly state "re-roll hit rolls of 1"....it is worded poorly and does indeed sound like you re-roll only one shot.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Eh, other rules with re-rolling 1's clearly state "re-roll hit rolls of 1"....it is worded poorly and does indeed sound like you re-roll only one shot.

"Re-roll a hit roll of 1" is very specifically a singular hit roll of 1 each time the model makes a ranged attack. Wording is clear but application is clunky and hard to use. Rolling those rapid fire shots per model etc.

Did you not see my explanation? Each attack is made one at a time. A heavy bolter makes 3 attacks, and each of those attacks can be re-rolled if 1.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I haven't seen the prices but I can imagine. I mean, this company just released a basic tank for $100...so...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYrISNNEgI&t=313s

for your chapter of choice. 25£ for baseline codex and 17.50£ for the supplement, total new 42.50£ supposedly.

As a swiss that translates probably to 35 CHF and 25CHF so now 60 CHF...... which btw is an estimate on the lower end.


Feth that i take the non updated traits of CSM all day compared to that!

ThatMG wrote:
Question: Angels of Death Rule was supposed be a catch all for "all marines" is this GW team failing at words again, cause that would mean Chaos Marines getting doctrines as well? As Shock Assault is one part of Angels of Death Rule.

Also from £30 (Current Codex) to £130 for Space Marines + 6 Faction 1st Founding Supplements.

 Deadshot wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned already but thought it relevant to the SM rumour thread - Rhinos and Razorbacks have been completely removed from the GW website. Chaos Rhino and all variant tanks still there but it seems like its the beginning of the end for OldMarines

Sterling191 wrote:
Back up.

Their doctrine is...eh.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I still don't understand how these supplements work with the successor chapters. Can I just freely create my own chapter tactic, declare my chapter to be be a White Scar or (*sigh*) Ultramarine successor and gain the associated stratagems and bonuses?

I imagine you can use the UM or WS rules for a sucessor but you can't sue create a chapter. create a chapter owever allows you to custom tailor your CTs and potentially get a moire powerful one

This would mean that the custom chapter stuff is dead on arrival, which would suck.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Yes and no.

People ran Guilliman with Repulsors or Scout Bikes, Scout Snipers, etc.. re-rolling the low strength stuff and fishing for mortal wounds. That build is probably dead.


But people also ran Guilliman with, say, triple-Krast Crusaders or some such, no other Ultramarine even in sight. Just for the Advance & charge & Re-roll 1s buff, and for his insane cc. damage output.



The latter got a lot better with Guilliman fighting twice, and can I see Guilliman be very worth it in a Marine list that is something of a hybrid of the above two: A more aggressive Marine list that moves up, uses the Guilliman ranged re-rolls as a bonus turn 1, maybe 2, but is more geared towards getting Guilliman stuck in there, maybe with a Gallant or so, maybe with just more close combat Marines. etc..

 Duskweaver wrote:
Does anyone know if they've fixed heavy and assault plasma incinerators like they've apparently fixed auto and stalker bolt rifles?